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Texas Attorney General Sues Vonage over 911 599

Posted by timothy from the big-daddy-government dept.
bigtallmofo writes "Vonage VoIP customers and readers of many media reports should be aware that Vonage's support for 911 service is less than ideal. Now the Attorney General of the State of Texas is suing Vonage for failing to make clear the limitations of their 911 service. The issue was brought to the AG's attention after a 17-year old Houston girl was unable to reach police after dialing 911 when both of her parents were shot by an intruder."
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Texas Attorney General Sues Vonage over 911 More

Texas Attorney General Sues Vonage over 911

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  • Is Vonage the right person to sue? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by DeadSea ( 69598 ) * on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @08:28AM (#12022098) Homepage Journal
    I'm not sure that Vonage is the right person to sue here. 911 does need to be able to work from VOIP phones, but my understanding is that the 911 system is not easy to hook up.

    The real number to which your 911 call is forwarded is some sort of state secret. The 911 call centers don't want to be called except for when 911 is dialed to avoid pranks, mistakes, and confusion. If you dial 911 from Vonage they forward your call to the publicly listed police number for your area. If they could figure out what the call center for your area would be, they would foward the call there. But my understanding is the list is not available to them.

    The 911 problems with VOIP are that like cell phones, you can take a VOIP phone with you. It is not tied to a location. Unlike cell phones, you can't pinpoint the location as being near a tower. You are just "on the internet" which is not nearly as helpful. VOIP does not have embedded GPS either.

    Here is a list of things that I think need to happen. Lets sue until the do (I don't care who):

    1. Make 911 call center numbers available to VOIP providers
    2. Embed GPS chips in black box VOIP boxes and configure them to send location information when 911 is dialed
    3. Require VOIP providers to ask customers the expected physical location of their VOIP phone so that 911 will work when there is no GPS data
    4. Require that VOIP providers inform customers that 911 will go to this location if they move their phone
    5. Require VOIP providers to allow users to change this location easily either through their phone, or a web interface
    6. Require VOIP providers to ask the "where is your phone" question again if other customer information like billing address changes

    I'm not sure how well the GPS thing would work indoors. You might have to have the box say "I can't get a GPS signal, I won't work until I have one. Go plug me in near a window until I can see a satelite, then you can put me in the basement."

    --
    Rate Exchange Calculator and Currency Convertor [ostermiller.org]

    • Re:Is Vonage the right person to sue? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Skye16 ( 685048 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @08:32AM (#12022117)
      I could be wrong now, but with Vonage, you go in and list your exact location to setup 911 (and you have to change it if you move, if you want the appropriate 911). Having never had to call 911 while using it, however, I have no idea what it's like after that. Regardless, however, Vonage does know your location (if you set it up, which they tell you to do). I have no idea about any other providers.

      • Test your 911 now (Score:5, Informative)

        by bluGill ( 862 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @11:09AM (#12023557)

        Well not now as in today, we don't want to slashdot 911. However if you have VOIP service and 911 should be enabled, call 911, tell the operator it is a test (sometimes they will put you on hold until they are not busy, just wait) then ask the operator to verify that they have your correct address.

        It is legal to call 911 for purposes of testing, but you should only do so when you need to test something. A voip phone is good reason to test 911.

        It is easy to do. Everyone should do it once in their life just so they have an idea what will happen when 911 answers. Just remember that you are low priority, don't get mad when they leave you suddenly. If there is an emergency you want them to take care of that first.

        • Hello, 9-1-1 (Score:4, Funny)

          by phorm ( 591458 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @12:29PM (#12024816) Journal
          I can just hear all the 9-1-1 operators bitching later today. WTF is slashdot, and why is everyone from there calling to "test" their service?

        • Re:Test your 911 now (Score:3, Informative)

          by Ayaress ( 662020 )
          It's not ok to phone up 911 just for a test in all areas. All areas have protocols for testing, but some of them want you to prearrange the test (usually just call some pencil pusher who writes your name down and says ok), others even have a separate number that goes through the 911 switchboard, but is automatically connected to a recording instead of an operator. A test call probalby isn't going to get you arrested, but it can piss people off at you, and some prosecurtors get bored and go after trivial thi
      • Note that when you call 911 from a Vonage line the people who end up handling the call cannot access your location information, so if you need assistance, you better know where you are.

        This is all covered in detail, more than once, in the terms of service Vonage provides. They beat you over the head with the 911 info, you can't miss it if you are paying attention at all.

        It is pretty dumb that there are not yet any hooks into the emergency system that they can access. Its not their fault, its a problem w

    • Well, you can guess the location depending on the IP you're on (there are many free pages on the web that demonstrate that). It's not quite accurate, but better than getting CA's call center when you're on holidays in PA or something like that.

      • Not good enough. From the article: "If they are unconscious, or they are too hysterical to give location information, all we are going to have is an open line with someone screaming on the other end," said John Melcher, executive director of the Greater Harris County 911 Emergency Network..
        Just because it's hard to do doesn't mean it's not needed.

    • Re:Is Vonage the right person to sue? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by gl4ss ( 559668 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @08:35AM (#12022130) Homepage Journal
      pitiful excuse. vonage certainly KNEW how to hook it up to dial the 911's. if nothing else they could have had a landline in each county, so it was doable.

      however, what's really the point is that vonage let them believe that 911 would work perfectly - which it didn't.

      • Re:Is Vonage the right person to sue? (Score:5, Interesting)

        by BrookHarty ( 9119 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @08:45AM (#12022182) Journal
        Landlines now have to be able to dial 911, even if you dont pay for service. I think its a FCC rule now. So even if you dont want phone service, you can still have a phone in your home for 911.

        • Re:Is Vonage the right person to sue? (Score:4, Informative)

          by interiot ( 50685 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @09:00AM (#12022277) Homepage
          Same for cell phones. You can have a cell phone that has no account... you could be internationally roaming in the U.S. for what it's worth, but the FCC still requires cell tower operators to accept any incoming call for 911 no matter what.

          So, really, the suggested solution for VoIP now is to get an inactive cell phone, and keep it around in case you ever need to dial 911.

          I don't know if VoIP could ever have this provision... that just the fact that you're able to connect to the public IP network means that you're able to dial 911?

          • Re:Is Vonage the right person to sue? (Score:4, Insightful)

            by Artifakt ( 700173 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @09:31AM (#12022524)
            What's sad is the John family had an accessable cell phone, but when the daughter couldn't get through via internet phone, she was paniced enough she ran next door to a neigbor's phone instead of using it.
            While Vonage should certainly take steps here, there are no steps at their end that will guarentee good results in an emergency situation.
            • What's sad is the John family had an accessable cell phone, but when the daughter couldn't get through via internet phone, she was paniced enough she ran next door to a neigbor's phone instead of using it.
              While Vonage should certainly take steps here, there are no steps at their end that will guarentee good results in an emergency situation.

              She wasn't paniced enough that she couldn't call 911 at all. If she'd been expecting that her VOIP service wouldn't work, or that she should use the cell phone, she
      • I had Vonage over a year ago, and the limitations, and what you could do to address those limitations, of were spelled out in great detail all over the Vonage web site and in the various emails they sent you when you signed up.
      • Vonage knew yes.. but they also state OVER AND OVER again that you HAVE to fill in the address where you will be using the adapater and ACTIVATE 911 service.

      • Re:Is Vonage the right person to sue? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Daytona955i ( 448665 ) <{moc.oohay} {ta} {42yugnnylf}> on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @09:21AM (#12022420)
        How does Vonage lead them to believe it would work perfectly? From vonage's website there is a little link on the front page entitled 911 dialing. The SECOND section says:
        911 Dialing Is Not Automatically Set Up for Use. You Must Pre-Activate 911 Dialing. You May Decline 911 Dialing.

        Of course this is America and no one reads the documentation and just expects things to work. Did you also know if you dial 911 with your phone police won't know where you are? Some people were on a boat that started to sink and they dialed 911. They didn't know what lake they were on, what city there were in or the friend's address whom they were visiting. They drowned and died and now their families are suing the police because they couldn't help them.

        Sure it would be great if we lived in a world where you could just should 911 and the police would come and save you but we don't. I also don't want to live in a world where lawnmowers need to contain warnings that basically say "don't touch the spinning blades, you could loose a hand" or "don't use this to trim your hedges dumbass" or else the manufacturers get sued. I don't want to live in a world where you have to list warnings in advertisements. My other question is would cell phone companies be required to do the same?

        I mean come on, does Microsoft warn you that you might get a virus or that someone could hack into your computer? Of course not, why state the obvious. I have vonage and I certainly knew of it's 911 limitations. I also knew of the cell phone 911 limitations. (Of course the cell phone limitations are starting to change and they can usually track you to your nearest cell tower. Except not all police stations have the updated equipment)

    • Re:Is Vonage the right person to sue? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by WebHostingGuy ( 825421 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @08:36AM (#12022134) Homepage Journal
      I believe the logic behind suing Vonage is this--if you are going to be taking on a utility service to consumers but you (i.e., Vonage) still don't want to be regulated by collecting any taxes on 911 [vonage-forum.com] nor a telecommunications entity [stanford.edu] then you will bear the brunt of appearing to be a utility service, providing a utility service but not regulated nor subject to the laws applying to utility services. Therefore, you will be subject to taking responsibility for all actions coming from the use of your service. There is no doubt in the coming age Vonage and other VOIP providers will come under some modified regulations but until then states are going to have no mercy on them when they are being beaten by VOIP providers at each turn.
      • Agreed.

        Setting up a VOIP communications company is a little bit more than patching some routers. An industry wide solution has still to come up and obviously it hasn't been a priority for these companies (besides Vonage).

        I use VOIP for long distance and still keep my land line.

      • Re:Is Vonage the right person to sue? (Score:5, Informative)

        by GreyPoopon ( 411036 ) <[gpoopon] [at] [gmail.com]> on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @10:48AM (#12023230)
        And yet, all customers who sign up with Vonage get a copy of the letter below. Sorry, but these people were well-informed about how 911 dialing works for Vonage, and were just plain too lazy to set the service up. I want traditional 911 dialing on Vonage as much as the next person, but suing Vonage isn't the way to make it happen. I think the better path would be for Texas residents to sue the counties to get them to work with Vonage to provide a more functional service.

        FROM: Vonage DigitalVoice Customer Care
        SUBJECT: 911 DIALING NOT YET ACTIVATED-IMPORTANT, PLEASE READ

        Account Number: xxxxxxxxxxxx
        Telephone Number: xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

        Customer Name
        Customer Address
        Customer City, State, Zip

        Dear Customer,

        Thank you for requesting 911 Dialing for phone number xxxxxxxxxxxxx. Please read the following information carefully.

        DIALING 911 IS NOT YET ACTIVATED ON YOUR PHONE LINE. THIS PROCESS MAY TAKE SEVERAL DAYS. DO NOT DIAL 911 FROM THIS PHONE LINE UNTIL YOU GET A CONFIRMATION EMAIL FROM US.

        Please review these steps to better understand how Vonage DigitalVoice(tm) 's Dialing 911 feature works.

        . Using the information you provided, we will map your address and telephone number to your area's nearest Public Safety Answering Point ("PSAP").

        . This process will be completed within several days.

        . We will email you a CONFIRMATION LETTER as soon as the 911 Dialing feature has been activated for XXXXXXXXXXXXX. (Note that if you have multiple Vonage DigitalVoice(tm) numbers you MUST activate 911 Dialing for each number separately.)

        . When you dial 911 from your Vonage DigitalVoice(tm) phone, your call is routed from the Vonage DigitalVoice(tm) network over the Public Switch Telephone Network ("PSTN") to your PSAP's general number, where a trained professional will provide you with assistance.

        PLEASE REMEMBER THAT 911 DIALING IS DIFFERENT THAN TRADITIONAL 911. We encourage you to login to your Vonage DigitalVoice(tm) account and click on Features in your Account Dashboard to learn more.

        Please contact us by:

        Email: customercare@vonage.com
        Toll Free Phone: 1-VONAGE-HELP (1-866-243-4357)
        Fax: 1732-333-1353
        24 hours a day, 7 days a week

        Thank You.

        Vonage DigitalVoice(tm) Customer Care

    • SUE THEM ALL! (Score:4, Insightful)

      by RoundSparrow ( 341175 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @08:39AM (#12022147)
      Geesh. Ok, how about we face the fact that the MURDER is the problem here.

      1. Your message implies "who to sue". How about sue no one?! How about the personal responsibility of knowing 911 works this way when you buy the device... I own Vonage, no secret to me that 911 worked different. Pretty clear when I installed the device. Of course, everyone who visit the house know this? No... but damn, we DID NOT go through this bullshit when Cell Phones were new.
      2. Murder is bad, so everyone is going to look to blame all kinds of things. But this is stupid human behavior and what makes much of the USA suck is our lack of accepting personal responsiblity (the person doing the murder). And our TV/Media always plays a role in in, making it seem like our government's main job is to keep John Q Public from killing Jim Q Public.
      3. Yha, GPS. Uh huh. Let's use technology to solve problems created by technology... instead of #1 and #2.

      I feel sad for the girl... but I also accept that you can't eliminate evil from the world... and every time you try to 'contain it' you just end up push it somewhere else. There are some things worth making a stand over... but come on, just a case of personal responsibility.

      It is the government's job to solve all my problems! (911) Blah.

      • Re:SUE THEM ALL! (Score:5, Insightful)

        by ghoti ( 60903 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @08:59AM (#12022276) Homepage
        It's not so easy. So many people are getting VoIP now, and few of them are able to tell you the difference between it and POTS. VoIP is offering services comparable to old-fashioned phones, and thus they will have to provide the same services for emergencies. If I pick up a phone to call 911, I don't care if it's a landline, mobile, VoIP oder telepathy-based - it just has to work, period.

        • Re:SUE THEM ALL! (Score:3, Insightful)

          by hanssprudel ( 323035 )
          If I pick up a phone to call 911, I don't care if it's a landline, mobile, VoIP oder telepathy-based - it just has to work, period.

          What if somebody happens to have an old antique or just elegant phone on display that isn't connected to a line at all? Should that be illegal since you cannot call 911 on it?

          What about if I have one those Skype handsets connected to my computer, which looks like a phone but is actually only used for calling in Skype network. Must that provide 911? If it does, what about the
        • I'm going to sue AOL tomorrow because I sent an instant message to 911 and they claim that they never received it...

          Why didn't AOL warn me that 911 could not be reached via instant message. AOL Instant Messager is flawed and they should be warning their customer with six warnings at login and I should receive a card in the mail each month explaining that I should only use my landline telephone when contact AOL.

      • Comment removed based on user account deletion

      • Re:SUE THEM ALL! (Score:4, Insightful)

        by daVinci1980 ( 73174 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @11:25AM (#12023808) Homepage
        You're missing the big picture here (and I actually disagree with the grandparent--Vonage should be sued over this issue).

        That's great that it was really clear to you that 911 was going to work differently. Unfortunately for you, the person who finds you incapacitated might not realize that 911 doesn't work the same way on your "phone" as it does on every other phone that they've ever used. And given that people are not always in the clearest state of mind during emergencies, it might take a little longer for them to get emergency personnel to your location. When *you're* the one bleeding out and 5 minutes makes a difference between life and death, are you going to take comfort in the fact that Vonage may deliver your phone call to the non-emergency police numbers?

        Did you know that any cell phone that can talk to a tower is *required* to be able to call 911 [fcc.gov], even if the person doesn't actually pay for service? Did you know the same thing is true for a phone that you have plugged into the wall? Why is Vonage any different then any other phone service provider (cell or landline?) The answer is, they're not. Or at least they cannot claim to be. You cannot claim to be a replacement for a phone company if you don't provide all of the critical services that a phone company would provide. It's false advertising. And it's not in the public's best interests.

        Personal responsibility is NOT the issue here. Personal responsibility is when YOU take responsibility for your actions (as you did when you put your name on your post). Not when someone else takes responsibility for their actions. How could the girl's actions have been better? Could she have told the intruders to take responsibility for themselves? That's utter stupidity.

        Furthermore, it's not even the little girl that is suing Vonage here. It's the state of Texas. And they're suing because of the reasons I just indicated. Offering a replacement for phone service and not giving 911 services is utterly ludicrous.
    • If you read the article, you'll find Vonage are the right people to sue. They claim to support 911 in their adverts but:

      1) You have to activate it manually and are never told this is the case (s you find out when you try to dial it.. great)
      2) It's in many places only works during office hours(!!)

      One problem is that the 911 service and the VOIP people have to work together more. At the moment the problem is Vonage claim they support 911, when it's badly designed and not automatically active. Thats false ad

      • Re:Is Vonage the right person to sue? (Score:5, Informative)

        by doj8 ( 542402 ) <doj-sd&newww,com> on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @09:00AM (#12022279) Homepage
        When I installed Vonage (at three different locations so far), you were most definitely told that you have to activate 911 and that it did not take effect immediately when you activated it. Activating it took about 10 seconds. It was part of the installation process, if I recollect. Once activated, I received an email telling me that it was not available yet. In a day or two, I received an email saying it was active.

        Do you have some evidence of Vonage's 911 relay working only during office hours? Since, as far as I know, Vonage's 911 relay is a single 24/7 point for the entire country (in Arizona, I believe) I find that unlikely.

        I could buy that some of the emergency services (police/fire/ambulance) are only available during office hours. Not all areas have 24/7 police/fire/ambulance services. That is not a Vonage issue, that is a locality issue. There are still areas not served by 911. In many rural areas, 911 relays to different dispatchers depending on the time of day (State Police vs. Town Police, for example). Vonage likely does not have direct access to 911 at that level.

        I agree that 911 and VOIP need to work together much more. 911 is a complicated system. There seems to definitely be some turf issues I recollect from when it was deployed in my home state a few years back.

        (For those who do not live in rural areas, please accept that very small towns often don't have the same level of emergency services coverage that cities do. I've been in towns where you have to call the State Police during work hours, because the policeman is volunteer and works during the day. You could call him once he got home from work though. In the town where I grew up you called Florence - she figured out who to call for you because she had a list of where all the volunteers worked.)

        • Do you have some evidence of Vonage's 911 relay working only during office hours?

          Well I have to opposite evidence. I used my Vonage phone to call 911 very early one morning. 911 apparently did not have my address (even though I thought I had registered it), but it was answered promptly and we had the ambulance there in minutes.

          Apparently in California the Vonage 911 calls are routed through the CHP just as with cell phones.

      • Really, show me an advert that says they fully support 911 dialing....

        Also you are very clearly told that you have to activate 911 dialing when you set it up. Setting it up is *very* easy and you are notified once it is setup. But of course like most slashdot posts you like to read opinion and spew it as fact. The article mostly states what the lawsuit is claiming, not what is fact. But at least you RTFA.

    • Re:Is Vonage the right person to sue? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by t_allardyce ( 48447 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @08:48AM (#12022202) Journal
      Theres an extra level of complexity added when people move - there was a case where a mother called 911 when her kid stopped breathing and she transferred through about 3 call centers before her kid died because there was some confusion about her address in the databases. There was some legislation to mandate GPS in cell phones if i remember right?

      I think it would be useful if there was some number (say 922) that people could call that would let them know that their phone would go to the correct call center in an emergency and that the call center would know their address, the problem is that people are lazy and 8/10 homes will never check, sometimes socialism is needed to stop idiots hurting themselves lol.

      • Actually, the proper way to do it is to call 911. Call during normal business hours, and tell them that you're testing your 911 service. Don't do it too frequently, and don't do it when there is high call volume, and everything will be fine. Just use common sense.


        Forum message from some people who actually did test 911 over VoIP.

        People have been testing 911 long before VoIP became popular. The usual reason was that they programmed one of the buttons on their phone to speed dial 911, and want to make
    • They still need to let people know about the limitation, even if it isn't their fault.

    • The 911 problems with VOIP are that like cell phones, you can take a VOIP phone with you. It is not tied to a location. Unlike cell phones, you can't pinpoint the location as being near a tower. You are just "on the internet" which is not nearly as helpful.

      IP addresses have a location, and that location is about as accurate as a cell phone tower. Of course, now that we've got e-911, cell phones have more detailed location information.

      Of course this assumes it's the responsibility of Vonage to make sure

      • IP addresses have about much location as a grain of sand along a beach. A little wind or modem reboot on a dynamic network and things are changed enough to be irrelevant.

        Yes, generally they are within a specific (but large) geographic area, but without serious assistance from the ISP you aren't going to be able to narrow it down anymore, and doing so even in an automated sense I would expect would be a not very small security issue.
    • I recently signed up for basic, cable ready TV only service from my local mom and pop cable shop [timewarnercable.com]. Because of this I see 4000% more cable TV, cable Internet and cable phone service commercials than ever. In fact, I've got CNN on and they've run one commercial since I've started typing this (1.2 minutes thus far).

      In these commercials for Cable phone (VoIP) service they do what that cable company does best: lies about phone services (Internet and Phone, their DSL commercials should be investigated by the FTC!
    • The real number to which your 911 call is forwarded is some sort of state secret

      Bullshit. Call up the 911 business office ( NOT 911, look it up ), ask for the cell phone emergency number

      BAM! You're gold.

      Asterisk user here, and what do you know, 911 DOES work for me

  • Vonage will win (Score:2, Insightful)

    by NerdHead ( 35767 ) *
    I can't see Vonage losing. There is no 100 percent guarantee that 911 will
    work, even with POTS lines. Intruders can cut POTS lines. Texas should sue but
    the outcome should shed light on 911's reliability and at least push VoIP
    providers to move forward with real E911 services. see Vonage losing. There is no 100 percent guarantee that 911 will
    work, even with POTS lines. Intruders can cut POTS lines. Texas should sue but
    the outcome should shed light on 911's reliability and at least push VoIP
    providers to move f

  • Reason number one (Score:5, Insightful)

    by LiquidCoooled ( 634315 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @08:32AM (#12022119) Homepage Journal
    why I don't even use even cordless phones in my home.

    I will never give up that emergency landline even if it costs me more money in both installation and charges.

    (I may be biased, we have needed it on two occasions in my life, both fire though)

    • We think along the same lines. I don't plan on giving up the landline (and I always keep at least 1 corded phone that does not require a power outlet) for when the power goes out or an emergency. As usefull as my cellphone is, it doesn't have the same QoS as a POTS line.
    • I keep an old $10 "gets its power from the telephone line" phone plugged into an outlet, just in case. I've used it several times to call the local power company to report an outage following severe storms. None of my other phones would work because they're dependent on that AC and the local cellphone nets had gone over capacity and bellyup.
    • In theory, you're supposed to be able to have 911 access from a landline even if you don't have service, just like you can dial 911 from a cell even if you don't have an account (Womens shelters often as for donations of old cell phones for this reason). However, at least in some places, your landline phone is physically disconnected when you cancel your service and no dial tone == no 911.
    • Give up your land line... these days it is safe because they are required by law to maintain a dial tone for 911 even on deactivated lines.

      I use to pay SBC 30$/month for phone service... now I pay them nothing but still have a phone (painted red of course) that I can dial 911 in an emergency.

      If you want to get really fancy a couple of the VoIP providers now provide ATA bricks that have an FXO interface also just for attaching to your unpaid for land line to dial 911 in an emergency.

    • Paint it red... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by ImaLamer ( 260199 ) <john.lamar@gma[ ]com ['il.' in gap]> on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @09:10AM (#12022349) Homepage Journal
      If you didn't want to paint it red, get one of these [io.com] and put it under one of these [naugraexport.com].

      Call it the "9-1-1 Emergency Phone" for the kiddies...

      • Re:Paint it red... (Score:5, Funny)

        by thefirelane ( 586885 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @09:53AM (#12022722)
        Although less stylish... perhaps a touch tone might be better in the case of emergency:

        "Oh my god, a murderer!..."

        *spin* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click*

        *spin* *click*

        *spin* *click*

        "Hello, this is 911... hello?......."
    • however..

      cellphone isn't a that bad thing to have for backup. in emergencies (big one's) they frequently work even if the landlines are cut(even when the power is cut they still work for some time, latest example the asian tsunami regions from which people could call to home immediately after the waves in several areas, if they still were alive and had a cell..).

    • Reason number one that you don't have a cordless phone is because you think people are going to break into your house and murder you, but you want a phone that will work for sure in such a case.

      This is why you don't own a convenient cordless phone?

      You do realize the odds of being home invaded are like 10 million to one.

      Why don't you put 5 foot tall thick steal spikes on your lawn to protect against runaway cars that could crash into your living room (about as likely as a home invasion).

      Where does it sto

  • Bah (Score:5, Informative)

    by PeeAitchPee ( 712652 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @08:37AM (#12022137)
    When configuring your Vonage account, you're forced to jump through a series of acknowledgement screen which plainly state, in very easy-to-understand text, that when you dial 911, your call will not go to the regular 911 switchboard but rather a separate emergency service, which will then notify the local police, fire, etc. You have to run through this enablement process for each number you're enabling. So while it's perhaps possible that dumbass people using Vonage won't bother to read up on the issue, it's plain that Vonage has gone out of their way to let their users know 911 won't behave in the normal fashion.
    • You're correct. Not passing judgement on the merits, but the Attorney General's complaint is that the disclaimers that you mention are not in the marketing materials.

      As you state, they are part of the signup process though.
    • If the state requires all phones to provide access to 911, then Vonage's disclaimers do not absolve them of potential liability.
    • Further, almost every 911 dispatch center has a non-911 number through which they can be reached. Everywhere I've lived, this number can be found in the phone book on the same page as the other emergency numbers. If you are a Vonage (or other VOIP) suscriber, you should probably keep this number handy.

      Of course, the call-taker probably won't automatically have access to your name and address this way, but you will be able to speak directly with the appropriate dispatch center.
      • Further, almost every 911 dispatch center has a non-911 number through which they can be reached. Everywhere I've lived, this number can be found in the phone book on the same page as the other emergency numbers.

        If that is the case, simply program it into speed dial. No matter, Vonage and other VoIP services must provide some sort of emergency services because in most states it's required.

        I think they should collect taxes for 911 and then provide it... how hard is that? Does it require a federal law?

  • Clear to me, why not them? (Score:3, Informative)

    by Slayback ( 12197 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @08:37AM (#12022140)
    It was very clear to me that I needed to setup my 911 information based on my physical location when I got Vonage. It was the first thing I did. I feel bad for the people this happened to, but it doesn't matter if you painted the box red and put big letters on it that said SETUP YOUR 911 CALLING, some people would still be oblivious.
    • If you'd read the article, you'd know that Vonage's 911 system does not provide the address of the phone used to make the call. Instead, it tells 911 that the emergency is in a Vonage server room, where the packets are converted to analog and dumped into the local 911 system.

  • One of the many reasons to keep a POTS line. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by mrshowtime ( 562809 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @08:40AM (#12022152)
    Sigh, almost every major local phone service provider is required to keep every hardline connected capable of dialing 911, even if normal service has been disconnected.
  • I'm sorry, but if you're an aspiring telco player, integration into emergency services should be priority number one. If they can do it with cell towers, they can do it with VOIP and there's absolutely no excuse.

    The simple fact is, we've all been trained to call 911 in the event of emergency..and sorry, but all phones should be able to reach it in one form or another. I don't care if you have to open a call center to forward the calls to the proper local authorities, you do it, and that's that.

    This kind o

    • Re:This should be top priority (Score:4, Interesting)

      by DrSkwid ( 118965 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @08:53AM (#12022229) Journal
      how about this excuse :

      where on earth are you ?

      This is the internet, the IP connecting to the VOIP service isn't even necessarily in the same country as the handset.

      Enterprising emergency service providers should start a low cost subscription service to hook up a batphone direct to the 911 center for you.
      • Well, they would happily charge to my credit card. They could start by looking up that information and assume it belongs to you. They also happily sell my address so I constantly keep receiving flyers in the mail.

        They should know their custumers up to a degree. Or is it an anonymous service?

  • cordless and base station power (Score:4, Interesting)

    by martin ( 1336 ) <<maxsec> <at> <gmail.com>> on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @08:40AM (#12022154) Journal
    This also effects the cordless phones to a lesser extent too. Should the power go out most cordless phones don't have battery backup on the base station so the phone still works.

    Many people get rid of their normal phone when they buy a multi-handset cordless, even though there's (in the UK at least) a big sticker on the phone that tells you about requiring mains power for the thing to work and the risk.

  • Huh? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Cytlid ( 95255 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @08:40AM (#12022155)
    I work for an ISP/Communications company in my area. I recently switched my number over to a beta voip test network we've been playing with. I seriously have no idea if 911 will work correctly. (Seeing as I'm geographically close to our switch, maybe it will).

    So I'm a tad concerned about this.

    On the other hand, I did have to dial 911 in the last year (or two?), *before* I had the VoIP service, while I had a traditional land line.

    An electrical cable outside my house was about 60 years old and it decided it would short in the middle of the night. (Think this was last April or the year before). This was the main power to the house. I went out to investigate, and it was smoldering. I had no idea if the house was burning on the inside of the walls or not.

    I run back inside and dial 911. Guess what? The girl didn't know my address. She fumbled for a few minutes and finally I gave it to her.

    So if I know 911 had problems beforehand, why would I worry about my voip service? I've tried to make it completely clear to my family if something goes awry, we would need to use our cell phones...
    • I run back inside and dial 911. Guess what? The girl didn't know my address. She fumbled for a few minutes and finally I gave it to her.

      Just an honest question from a dumb foreigner: Can your emergency services usually really tell your address automatically when you are calling ? And if yes, how do they do this ? Or did I just get the wrong idea from the sentence above ?

      Here in Germany which usually has a really state-of-the-art digital phone system you are still required and also trained to do so to t

  • I agree with Texas AG (Score:4, Interesting)

    by BrookHarty ( 9119 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @08:43AM (#12022165) Journal
    911 should be turned on by default, but using an excuse that it routes through call centers is absurd. Local 911 departments have been routing calls for the last few years due to budget cuts. Thats a lame excuse.

    Also GPS doesnt work as well indoors, so people who said that, thats not really going to work. Right now, cellular companies use tringulation and RF timing to detect where you are, works pretty well. Cingular (Former ATT Wireless) has friend finder, where you can add your friends and family and see where they are. Or leave a phone in the your car, and find out all hours where the car is. ;)

  • 911 isn't free... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by mecro ( 597901 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @08:45AM (#12022179)
    This is easy.

    While Vonage is great and all, they are not taxed by anyone, as of yet. If you look at your baby bell phone bill, you'll see a tax of a few bucks on there each month for Emergency 911 service.

    I pay for my 911 service, and so does everyone who uses a landline or a cell phone. Vonage wants access to this system, but they don't want to pay for it.

    That is why the baby bell's are refusing access to the PRIVATE 911 network which they have established. We take 911 for granted, but it is a service that is private, and it is a service that we pay for.

    • Re:911 isn't free... (Score:3, Informative)

      by nasor ( 690345 )
      "I pay for my 911 service, and so does everyone who uses a landline or a cell phone. Vonage wants access to this system, but they don't want to pay for it."

      To be precise, it's Vontage CUSTOMERS who want access to 911 without paying for it. Part of the appeal of VOIP is that you don't have to pay $10-$15/ month in miscellaneous telephone taxes on it.

  • And what should Vonage do, when I'm in Europe ? (Score:2, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I am a user of Vonage.
    And i often travel to Europe and use VoIP from there to make calls in the USA.
    What is Vonage supposed to do if i dial 911 in Europe ? (In Europe, the emergency number is 112.)

  • But VOIP is location-independent! (Score:3, Informative)

    by bourne ( 539955 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @08:46AM (#12022190)

    Isn't one of the points of VOIP that you can take your number with you anywhere in cyberspace? Call from your house in the suburbs, your downtown office, or the Marriot three time zones away?

    There's no reasonable way to require the service to map 911 services if they don't know where you are.

    As for Vonage, there's a link on their home page for 911 Dialing [vonage.com]. If you click on it, you see that it's an extra service and all the limitations are clearly laid out, including the need to update them with your location and the fact that it'll only call the current designated location.

  • I live in Texas and have been a happy Vonage (via Earthlink) customer for about 4 months now. When I signed up for the service, it was made very clear that 911 would not be available until doing a special registration and then it would go to my local general emeregency service number, not the regular 911 service. Looks to me to be yet another case of someone not reading anything (and we aren't talking fine print on the back of a contract here) about what they are doing.

    Based on my limited research on th

  • "Unlike traditional phone technology, VoIP converts the sound of a voice into small packets of data -- about 50 packets for every second of conversation -- scatters them across the Internet, and then reassembles them into sound on the other end of a call."

    No thanks. I'm just a country doctor. I'm not having my phone call molecules scattered across the galaxy, er, internet.
  • ...to get this sorted out. To my mind emergency services are a clear requirement on any phone system: Company PBX's have always had the ability to dial out in an emergency. Even most cellphones still let you call the emergency services when blocked or out of credit.
    It's kind of annoying that in general, we argue against lumping VOIP in with the kind of legislation that applies to trad voice: the kind of legislation that may restrict free calls, or features or privacy or all of the above, and yet the VOI

  • Vonage is NOT Tranditional Land Line Service! (Score:4, Insightful)

    by matth ( 22742 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @09:03AM (#12022295) Homepage
    VoIP is NOT tranditional phone service.. saying "well because I use it to talk to people.. I should have regular 911" is flawed..

    That's like living on a big old country road WAY out there... and having trees fall down often.. well when one falls you have to get a tow truck in there or other large vehicle to move it.

    Saying VoIP needs landline quality 911 is like saying you need/want a crain on your car so you can move those trees... after all someone's life might depend on you getting through.

    Your car is not designed to move trees... likewise VoIP is *not* regular phone service, and as a result will be DIFFERENT.. (You don't see anyone sueing because they get 3 way calling for free.. do you? That's certainly not a standard for a regular phone line.).

    If dialing 911 (cutting trees) is that important to you, then keep a regular land line, or cell phone (get a tow truck).... but don't expect one technology to work like another!

  • You get what you pay for (Score:4, Insightful)

    by godless dave ( 844089 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @09:04AM (#12022308)
    from the article:
    Peter John said his daughter was hysterical after the robbery and didn't see a nearby cell phone.
    Mr. John made the decision to save money by signing up with an unregulated telephony service. Traditional phone services are required to provide enhanced 911 service and they charge the customer for it (it's a line item on your bill). VOIP is unregulated; that's one reason it costs less. But you can't have it both ways. I'm sympathetic to the urge to limit the spread of regulations that hamper innovation and increase costs, but with less regulation comes more responsibility for the consumer to know what they are buying.

  • Just listened to the sound clipi of the call (Score:3, Interesting)

    by matth ( 22742 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @09:05AM (#12022315) Homepage
    I just listened to the sound clip of the call at:
    http://www.oag.state.tx.us/oagNews/release.ph p?id= 849

    I don't see how this lawsuit will have any feet to stand on... first the message CLEARLY states that 911 service is not available on that line.. and instructs you what to do (have a neighbor call or... HEAVEN FORBID!!! call the police number like you used to have to do 5 years ago)... it's not like Vonage is being negligent about this in any way...
  • ...is because people's lives depend on it.

    Vonage, welcome to the big kids' play ground. Providing a telecommunications service is a serious business. We take our service seriously and providing anything less than continuous dialtone and emergency access service is subpar.

    Everyone likes to rail against the local phone companies, but there are a few things they do quite well. The first is continuity of service, i.e. the vaunted 99.999% uptime figure. The second is emergency services. Through 100 ye
  • http://www.oag.state.tx.us/agency/contacts.shtml#e mail

    greg.abbott@oag.state.tx.us

    If every slashdotter e-mailed Greg and let him know what they think about this lawsuit, perhaps something will change.
  • ...but here in the UK we have two types of phone; those that are guaranteed to work with 999 (our emergency number), and those that are not guaranteed to work (but may).

    The main reason for this is that any mains-powered phone won't work when the power goes out --- of course. However, phones that are powered from the telephone line will still work.

    Non-guaranteed phones typically come with big warnings saying that they should not be used as your primary telephone because you may not be able to make emerge

  • Letter To Mr. Abbott (Score:2, Insightful)

    by matth ( 22742 )
    Mr. Abbott,
    I find your lawsuit against Vonage to be incredibly frivolous. First, Vonage is NOT traditional telephone service. It is VoIP. VoIP is NOT regulated, nor is it required to provide 911 service. Vonage has found a way to offer 911 service to consumer by redirecting them to their PSAP, however this can only be done AFTER the consumer has told Vonage where the unit will be used (as you can take it anywhere).
    Second, saying you 'want 911' on your VoIP line, is like saying you want

  • Was the service activated? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by portwojc ( 201398 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @09:24AM (#12022446) Homepage
    The real question is did the customer have the service turned on?

    From vonage's website:

    911 Dialing Is Not Automatically Set Up for Use. You Must Pre-Activate 911 Dialing. You May Decline 911 Dialing.
    We STRONGLY urge you to activate 911 Dialing. Even if you don't plan to make 911 calls from your Vonage line, there may be others who do. You can't plan in advance for all situations. For example, a residential line could be used by babysitters, young children, in-laws, and others who may need to make 911 calls. If you decline 911 from Vonage, you or others will not be able to call 911 from your Vonage line. Don't play games with your safety. Register today

    Of course that really doesn't matter. The fact is it didn't work and that's enough for someone to sue.

    It would be interesting to know if they had the service turned on or not. Of course it should be on by default...

  • I think it's BS (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anita Coney ( 648748 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @09:27AM (#12022471) Homepage
    I personally think this is a backdoor ploy by the status quo phone industry to hurt Vonage.

    Let's face it, cell phones don't always have 911 access either, but NO one complains about that. That's because the status quo phone industry makes a fortune on cell phones.

    Once the status quo phone industry kills off the little guys like Vonage and takes over VOIP, we won't be hearing about the so called 911 problem anymore.

  • Vonage *DOES* offer 911 (Score:3, Insightful)

    by The Cisco Kid ( 31490 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @09:48AM (#12022661)
    But you have to enable it, and tell them your location.

    Lets face it, there is *NO* way that 'your VoIP phone service will work anywhere you plug it into a broadband Internet connection (including locations other than your home)' and/or 'you are not restricted to the local monopoly-phone carrier for your phone service, or even required to use their existing wiring plant' can ever be compatible with 'the phone service provider always automatically knows your location'. Anyone desiring services with the former featurs, *should* have the sense (or if they don't, it should be in big bold letters when they sign up) to realize that.

    For more info (from Vonage):

    http://vonage.com/features.php?feature=911

  • Much BS about Vonage (Score:3, Informative)

    by GodLived ( 517520 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @10:04AM (#12022830) Journal
    After RTFA, (grin), and being a Vonage user, I am outraged. It's not like the article says, folks.

    ...filed a lawsuit against Vonage, the country's largest Internet-based telephone service provider, for failing to make clear to consumers that the company's current service does not include access to traditional emergency 9-1-1 service.

    Suppose I'm interested in signing up for Vonage. I go to vonage.com, click on "Basic 500 plan." On the main page, it says, "Does Vonage offer a 911 Dialing emergency type of dialing service? Yes. Click here to learn more. " Clicking on the link takes me to a page where the first sentence reads, "Vonage offers 911 Dialing to all customers. When you dial 911, your call is routed from the Vonage network to the Public Safety Answering Point (PSAP) for your area." Just below it, in bright yellow-orange letters, a message clearly states, "You Must Tell Us the Physical Location of Your Vonage Line for 911 Dialing to Function."

    When consumers purchase the plan over the phone, call center salespeople also fail to disclose this important information...

    Okay, so 2 weeks later, I sign up for Vonage by phone. My phone rep tells me about 911. Of course, YMMV, but the burden of proof is going to be unfortunately on Vonage via policies to its employees.

    Even after signing up, there are limitations to the service that Vonage customers may never know about unless they read the fine print buried on the company's Web site.

    After signing up, I log in, and get a dashboard. Granted, nothing about 911 shows on the dashboard. When I click on "Features," however, which is where you go to set up call forwarding, voicemail, network outage fallback number (strangely called Network Availability Number), Right There In A Bold Red Box, It Says "911 Dialing is NOT automatic. You must activate 911 Dialing for each number on your account."

    This is hardly "buried in the fine print."

    ...[Vonage] fails to make clear that when a customer signs up for Vonage's service, the customer does not automatically have the ability to dial 9-1-1

    See above.

    For example, customers who dial 9-1-1 through Vonage's "911 dialing" service are routed through administrative lines at 9-1-1 call centers, not directly to call-station operators who dispatch emergency vehicles. Calls outside regular business hours may not be answered. If emergency personnel do get the call, they may not be able to identify the caller's phone number and will not have information about the caller's address.

    No personal experience on this one, but given the other falsehoods in the article, I find it highly suspicious. Vonage collects your address and binds it to your telephone number. When you call them, they know the registered address of the phone. Vonage claims to use that information to connect to the proper call center. In the age of call forwarding, I would hope this information is auto-routed to the call center... but then again, how many times have I keyed my account number into an automaton only to have the human ask for it all over again.

    In summary, Vonage is great, it's 911 is what it is, but they certainly warn you about it, and this lawsuit is baseless.

  • Well, I'll disagree with the crowd. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Gannoc ( 210256 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @10:13AM (#12022905)
    911 is PRETTY GODDAMN IMPORTANT. Its taught to kids in Kindergarten. Everyone knows it. Its a universal number that connects you to the police. You can't say "Well, if people are too dumb to read the documentation, they shouldn't be upset."

    Supporting 911 also includes having emergency services know your address, know your PHONE NUMBER, and other information. Its not just a macro that connects you to a PRIVATE company that might not even be open. A 5 year old who doesn't know what his address is can call 911 and have help arrive.

    But according to some posters here, everyone should have read this fine print, buried in the terms of service:


    2.1 Non-Availability of Traditional 911 or E911 Dialing Service
    You acknowledge and understand that the Service does NOT support traditional 911 or E911 access to emergency services. Vonage does offer a limited 911-type service available only on Vonage Devices as described herein, but you acknowledge and understand that 911-type dialing is NOT automatic, that you must separately take affirmative steps, as described in this Agreement and on Vonage's website, to activate such 911-type dialing capabilities and that such 911-type dialing is different in a number of important ways (some, but not necessarily all, of which are described in this Agreement) from traditional 911 service. Vonage 911 dialing cannot be used in conjunction with a Vonage Soft Phone application and is only available on Vonage-certified Devices or Equipment. You agree to inform any household residents, guests and other third persons who may be present at the physical location where you utilize the Service of the non-availability of traditional 911 or E911 dialing from your Vonage Service and Device(s). If you activate Vonage 911-type dialing service, you agree to inform any household residents, guests and other third persons who may be present at the physical location where you utilize the Service as to the important differences and limitations of Vonage 911 dialing service as compared with traditional 911 or E911 dialing that are set forth in this Agreement.
    2.2 Description of 911-Type Dialing Capabilities - Activation Required
    Vonage does offer a 911-type dialing service in the U.S. (but may not offer such service in Canada) that is different in a number of important ways from traditional 911 service. You acknowledge and understand that 911-type dialing is NOT automatic. You must successfully activate the 911 dialing feature by following the instructions from the "Dial 911" link on your dashboard. You acknowledge and understand that you cannot dial 911 from this line unless and until you have received a confirming email. Once you have received a confirming email that 911 dialing has been successfully activated, you may dial 911 as needed. When you dial 911, your call is routed from the Vonage network to the Public Safety Answering Point (PSAP) or local emergency service personnel designated for the address that you listed at the time of activation. You acknowledge and understand that when you dial 911 from your Vonage equipment it is intended that you will be routed to the general telephone number for the PSAP or local emergency service provider (which may not be answered outside business hours), and may not be routed to the 911 dispatcher(s) who are specifically designated to receive incoming 911 calls using traditional 911 dialing. Vonage relies on third parties for the forwarding of information underlying such routing, and accordingly Vonage and its third party provider(s) disclaim any and all liability or responsibility in the event such information or routing is incorrect. As described herein, this 911-type dialing currently is NOT the same as traditional 911 or E911 dialing, and at this time, does not necessarily include all of the capabilities of traditional 911 dialing. Neither Vonage nor its officers or employees may be held liable for any claim, damage, or loss, and you hereby waive any and all such claims or causes of action, arising from or relati

    • Re:Well, I'll disagree with the crowd. (Score:4, Informative)

      by Col. Klink (retired) ( 11632 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @11:21AM (#12023752)
      The Terms of Service is not the only place the 911 info is located. It's at the TOP of the features page (across two columns with a read table heading), it's on the "about vonage" page, and they have multiple FAQs [vonage.com].
    • And of course, technology never changes. There was never a time when children were taught than in an emergency, they should hitch up the horse and buggy, and drive to the town ten miles away and go and 'fetch the doctor'.

      The 911 system has only existed since around the mid 1970's. VoIP service is very new. There are inherent technological limitations on its ability to know the location of a caller, due to one of the features that make it so useful. There are inherent political and economic limitations on i

  • 911 is why I still have a landline (Score:3, Insightful)

    by CDS ( 143158 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @10:51AM (#12023249)
    This is why I still have a landline as my primary phone. Yes, it is expensive. Yes, it's annoying to pay that monthly bill.

    I have a 2 year old daughter. I have never needed to call 911 but I DEFINATELY need to know it is accessible at a moments notice and that 911 can find me without having to worry about it. Also, when my daughter gets a little older I need to know she can dial 911 and get help, even if she doesn't know our address.

    We have a landline and two cellphones. We contemplated dropping the landline and just going with the cells because it's so much cheaper -- 911 service is the primary reason we did not do so. Even cell 911 is limited and they cannot always figure out where you are located -- and what happens if you let the battery run down???

    Until alternative methods of contacting emergency personnel are proven to be effective, I will stick with my landline. It's worth the extra cost.

    Also, having the landline means we can give people we really don't care about (ie the plumber) our landline number and we aren't spreading our cell number around to everyone in the world.

  • As someone else has already said (Score:3, Informative)

    by JeffTL ( 667728 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @11:00AM (#12023398)
    Set up a rotary phone (or a clearly marked touchtone, preferably one that looks nothing like the ones hooked to Vonage -- you should be able to tell it instantly from your VoIP phones, even when you are under heavy stress. Red, maybe?) on your old landline if you switch to Vonage -- the phone company is required to provide you with 911 even if you don't have phone service on the line.

    Or just keep your local phone service, and every phone in the house is really 911 capable -- that's what I do, and it works well with six phones. If you only have one phone hooked up for 911, it may be harder to get to a telephone when you're home alone having a heart attack and your cell phone is on the charger if you have one. I for one don't want to die because I wanted to save a few bucks and cut most or all of my house's phones off from 9-1-1, of all things. It'd be a humiliating way to go out, not having a working telephone.

    Or alternatively, make sure that someone in your house has a working cell phone at all times; 911 is better than with Vonage, I believe.

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