U.S. Kids Don't Understand First Amendment

l4m3z0r writes "This rather alarming article discusses a study of high-school students in which they were asked about censorship, protected speech, and other aspects of the first amendment. The results are extremely worrisome: "Only half of the students said newspapers should be allowed to publish freely without government approval of stories." and this "Three in four students said flag burning is illegal. It's not. About half the students said the government can restrict any indecent material on the Internet. It can't.".."

Accuracy

[fembots (753724)]

Are all/most surveyed students born and brought up in America?

And does the First Amendment still feel the same after newly introduced Bills like PATRIOT ACT?

For instance, some countries have this Internal Security Act which allows government to imprison anyone for a couple of years without trial, and with that shadowing above your head, does it still matter if you're protected by another ancient right?

It's like a F1 driver still feels safe driving on slicks after it starts raining.

Re:Accuracy

[JPriest (547211)]

Any study that pulls a "random" cross section of the American population is usually equally as shocking. Few Americans could even tell you that it takes the earth 365.25 days to revolve around the sun, many don't know what makes the moon light up. Only like 25% op them can find Iraq on a globe. I am willing to bet that a greater percentage could tell you Britney Spears' middle name or name the entire cast of Sex In The City.

You wonder why Americans are so fat, when most of them think carbs are something are bad for you, when hardly any of them can explain what "callories from fat" means.

Meanwhile, insurance rates in this countly are through the roof for buisness getting sued into the ground becasue someone stupid hurt themselves with their product, because the warning label did not state something that should have been common sense.[/rant]

Re:Accuracy

[by Anonymous Coward]

Few Americans could even tell you that it takes the earth 365.25 days to revolve around the sun

Actually, Mr Know-it-all it's closer to 365.242.

Re:Accuracy

[SoTuA (683507)]

But there's a difference between "being smart" and "knowing things". What OP complains about, I'd call it "lack of culture/basic knowledge" before calling it "lack of intelligence".

A person with such lack of culture might not know why touching the stove burned them. An idiot would touch it again.

Of course, being non-intelligent usually goes hand in hand with lack of basic knowledge.

Here is the study

[Aqua OS X (458522)]

Well, here is the study

Future of First Amendment Report (456K) PDF [jideas.org]

Country of origin was not taken into account with their research. That variable might be worth examining if student misconceptions were relatively low. Yet, considering the popularity of misconceptions far outweighs the possible number of students born abroad, it's not really worth examining.
Moreover, there are already sociological studies with that data... you can probably find some full-text research on Ebsco.

Re:Accuracy

[DarkTempes (822722)]

another bit on accuracy: when you fill out these little paper surveys in high school, how many people just put crap as an answer or how many people typically put what they think is the silliest answer? i'd say only 5 to 10% of high school students ever take such surveys serious unless the university doing the study actually phone or personally interviewed more than 100,000 students...which i doubt somewhere some company probably thinks at my high school, everyone got laid 5+ times a day and did every single drug known to man =)

Re:Accuracy

[Dashing Leech (688077)]

"The government wants people to give up their rights, either voluntarily or through attrition."

Absolutely. Propaganda works wonders. After all, how else do you explain that half of Americans believe Iraq was involved in 9/11 [commondreams.org]. It certainly doesn't suprise me that students don't understand what the government can and can't do when they don't learn it in schools and the media doesn't cover it because it isn't sex, violence, or an entertaining show.

Re:Accuracy

[dosius (230542)]

If they can convince the kids that such rights don't exist, then when the kids are grown up they can make the rights disappear without them noticing or caring.

Pity.

Moll.

Re:Accuracy

[cgranade (702534)]

The best propaganda is that which people do not believe is propaganda. If it is accepted in schools as "cirriculum," then it can't be propaganda, can it? Furthermore, propaganda can take the form of silence on a specific issue, or acting upon an implicit assumption. Very rarely did Americans hear "the hijackers were from Iraq," which is blatantly false, but rather they heard "Iraq had a part in 9/11," and saw us act as if the hijackers were from Iraq. These implicit assumptions are perhaps the strongest and most insidious of the forms which American propaganda takes today.

Re:Accuracy

[by Anonymous Coward]

> Others say that communism fell because no one wanted to wear Bulgarian shoes :)

With money I got from free market economy, I bought sneakers. These are from Slovakia. They are called "Adidums." They are like "Adidas," but with four stripes instead of three. So for less money, I get extra stripe! It's very good deal.

Re:Accuracy

[by Anonymous Coward]

Good deal, but don't the shoes wear you?

Re:Accuracy

[MightyMartian (840721)]

I think the collapse of Communism was a good deal more complex than the claims that Reagan outspent the Soviets. The system hadn't really worked all that well for decades. The Soviet economy had been having problems particularly during the uninspired leadership of Brezhnev. Gorbachev tried to buy time to ease the USSR into a market economy (it must be noted that the Chinese are successfully doing this), but the USSR's internal cohesion, which had not been so great and all-encompassing as the Soviets had let on, was fragmenting. There was economic, social and political rot everywhere.

Re:Accuracy

[TheLittleJetson (669035)]

Communisim was a real threat in the cold war period. "We will bury you." was not a joke.

Terrorism is a real threat now. I think the poster was likening the two, because they're both exaggerated for political purposes. The neo-conservative philosophy revolves around the idea of a nation striving against some sort of 'evil' entity. This can be real or fake, but it works best when it's a little of both. Once people have seen a terrorist attack, it doesn't take much to convince them that there's some worldwide organization that was behind it.

Of course they don't know, we don't allow them to!

[garcia (6573)]

The survey, conducted by researchers at the University of Connecticut, is billed as the largest of its kind. More than 100,000 students, nearly 8,000 teachers and more than 500 administrators at 544 public and private high schools took part in early 2004.

Now this is NOT an insignificant study. 100k students and only half of the students said newspapers should be allowed to publish freely without government approval of stories? Excuse me? This misinformation must be coming from somewhere... Are these kids skipping American History/Civics and moving into Psychology and Sociology courses instead?

About half the students said the government can restrict any indecent material on the Internet. It can't.

Well, unfortunately it HAS been restricting indecent material. Forcing various institutions to enable filters on content. Yeah, it can't stop ALL the content out there but it is getting closer and closer to that. With the scare tactics and every parent believing that every sensationalist news "story" on the TV is GOING TO AFFECT THEIR CHILDREN they are pushing this crap through without thinking about the consequences.

The study suggests that students embrace First Amendment freedoms if they are taught about them and given a chance to practice them, but schools don't make the matter a priority.

Of course they don't. Going through high-school English classes I was told repeatedly how I was to respond when it came time for essay exams. If you did not give the teacher what they wanted you were given a poor grade. It wasn't until college (and I remember our second semester English professor being appalled) that I was able to write how I felt about a topic and back it up with real information. The professor would grade you on your research and your proof and not how he/she particularly felt the topic should be supported.

How can we expect high-school aged kids to think that they should be given a chance to practice their First Amendment rights when they are under the constant force feeding of information?

More than one in five schools offer no student media opportunities; of the high schools that do not offer student newspapers, 40 percent have eliminated them in the last five years.

That's because the government and consolidated media doesn't want free thinkers. They want people who follow the status quo. Why stir the pot when you can just report the silly rumors, scare tactics and sensationalism, and car chases above California?

Re:Of course they don't know, we don't allow them

[GigsVT (208848)]

In high school I was on the newspaper staff for a while. We had a major part of an issue planned for addressing sex in high school, with various stories and features.

The principal vetoed the whole deal.

Something similar recently came up at another, and the students just left an entire page blank as a protest.

How can we teach kids about 1st amendment freedoms when principals have 100% editorial control over school papers?

Re:Of course they don't know, we don't allow them

[Mr Guy (547690)]

I think that's an excellent lesson in the difference between the first amendment and sponsered speech. You'll notice in your example the principal exercised prior restraint in a publication he controls the funding for in a venue he controls the discipline for. A similiar example would be "Air America" where the government controls the funds and employees. This is not covered by the "freedom of press".

If a policeman, acting as an agent of the government, had come in and insisted you not publish an article on sex, that would be a free press issue.

Sounds like you had a learning opportunity and you failed the lesson.

Re:Of course they don't know, we don't allow them

[truesaer (135079)]

I think that's an excellent lesson in the difference between the first amendment and sponsered speech. You'll notice in your example the principal exercised prior restraint in a publication he controls the funding for in a venue he controls the discipline for.

Actually, at my high school we were censored as well and our paper was 100% advertising supported. I think you fail to understand that the principal IS the government. He can't censor the news unless it falls into that category that would disrupt the school environment. Of course, conveniently, the principal is the one who decides this which means it is at his whim.

The fact is that if the government were supporting a regular newspaper in such a tangental way there is NO way they could censor the content. The only reason they can in this case is that the SCOTUS seems to think that all bets are off when it comes to constitutional rights in schools. And it is then no surprise the the kids don't really care about or want to protect their rights, since they didn't have them for the first 18 fucking years!!!

Re:Of course they don't know, we don't allow them

[justins (80659)]

I think that's an excellent lesson in the difference between the first amendment and sponsered speech. You'll notice in your example the principal exercised prior restraint in a publication he controls the funding for in a venue he controls the discipline for.

You've got it all wrong. The principal was constitutionally off-base in restricting the speech, as it is the taxpayer who is funding the paper. He was acting as a representative of the government, and the government cannot selectively restrict speech in this way.

Anyone interested in learning more ought to google "NEA first amendment" or something to that effect. The National Endowment of the Arts is the traditional lightning rod for speech restriction by government, since there are so many artists funded by the program who try to be deliberately provocative, and so many hicks responsible for legislating funding for the program. Traditionally the supreme court has found restrictions imposed on the speech of funded artists to be unconstitutional for a few different reasons, although I haven't followed supreme court cases much in the last couple of years, and the federal courts (like the rest of the country) are getting dumber and more conservative...

Re:Of course they don't know, we don't allow them

[Frymaster (171343)]

In high school I was on the newspaper staff for a while. We had a major part of an issue planned... The principal vetoed the whole deal.

the thing that everyone is forgetting is this: high school is not now nor has it ever been anything like "real life".

witness: in school, teachers routinely punish the entire class until the party guilty of a particular offense comes forward. in real life, we would call this sort of activity by authorities "terrorism". in school, the mantra of maintaining order is "i don't care who started it." in the real world, we spend billions of dollars on a justice system to figure out "who started it."

since the dawn of the formal state educational system we have been creatinga purly artificial environment for our children with values, mores and codes of conduct that bear no resemblence to the real world whatsoever.

so... why should these results be a surprise?

Re:Of course they don't know, we don't allow them

[Tackhead (54550)]

> the thing that everyone is forgetting is this: high school is not now nor has it ever been anything like "real life".
>
>witness: in school, teachers routinely punish the entire class until the party guilty of a particular offense comes forward. in real life, we would call this sort of activity by authorities "terrorism". in school, the mantra of maintaining order is "i don't care who started it." in the real world, we spend billions of dollars on a justice system to figure out "who started it."

Actually, in real life, governments routinely apply laws to the entire population (banning firearms, banning marijuana) due to the irresponsibility of the few. And just as in school -- when it comes down to a sense of fairness or maintaining order, our leaders also don't care who started it.

Rather than trying to make high school more like real life, we discovered it was more efficient to make real life more like high school.

Re:Of course they don't know, we don't allow them

[revery (456516)]

You want to know the real bottom line?

Parents are responsible for their child's education, not the government, not their church, not anyone else in the world, them. We've been screwing things up for years by letting the government run education, and at some point, it's going to have to stop.

Re:Of course they don't know, we don't allow them

[madro (221107)]

In case there are any high schoolers (or parents of high schoolers) reading Slashdot, here's the FAQ from SPLC (Student Press Law Center). I worked on a newspaper in high school and despite the extreme (grade-affecting) hard work found it really rewarding.
http://splc.org/legalresearch.asp?id=3 [splc.org]

Q: Do high school students have First Amendment rights?
A: Yes. As the United States Supreme Court said in 1969, "It can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional right to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate." But the First Amendment only prohibits government officials from suppressing speech; it does not prevent school censorship at private schools. A state constitution, statute or school policy could provide private school students with free speech protections.

Q: What about the Hazelwood decision?
A: Hazelwood School District v. Kuhlmeier, the 1988 U.S. Supreme Court decision, gave public high school officials greater authority to censor some school-sponsored student publications if they chose to do so. But the ruling doesn't apply to publications that have been opened as "public forums for student expression." It also requires school officials to demonstrate some reasonable educational justification before they can censor anything. In addition, some states (currently Arkansas, California, Colorado, Iowa, Kansas and Massachusetts) have passed laws that give students much stronger free expression protection than Hazelwood. Other states are considering such laws.

Q: What is a "public forum for student expression?"
A: A student publication is a public forum for student expression when school officials have given student editors the authority to make their own content decisions. A school can do that either through an official policy or by allowing a publication to operate with editorial independence.

Q: So if policy or practice indicates the content of my publication is determined by students, the Hazelwood decision doesn't apply to me?
A: That's right. If a student publication is a public forum for student expression, then students are entitled to stronger First Amendment protection. School officials are only allowed to censor forum publications when they can show the publication will cause a "material and substantial disruption" of school activities.

Q: What about underground or independent student publications? Are they protected from censorship?
A: Absolutely. Although public schools can establish reasonable restrictions as to the time, place and manner of distribution of underground publications, they cannot absolutely forbid their distribution on school grounds. Like school-sponsored publications that are forums, a school must show substantial disruption before they can censor an independent publication.

Q: Can a student publication be sued for libel, invasion of privacy or copyright infringement?
A: Yes, and occasionally they are. In such cases the individual reporter and the editor could be held legally responsible. Court decisions indicate that a school which does not control the content of a student publication may be protected from liability. Students need to be aware that with press freedom does come legal responsibility.

Q: Can student reporters protect confidential news sources or information?
A: Some states have "shield laws" and others have court-created privileges that protect journalists from having to reveal this kind of information. However, most states have never explicitly applied these laws to student journalists. You should check your state law before making a promise of confidentiality because once you make such a promise, the law requires you to keep it.

Q: Can I use freedom of information laws?
A: Yes. Freedom of information, or "sunshine" laws, require government agencies such as public schools to open many of their official records and

Re:Of course they don't know, we don't allow them

[mikesmind (689651)]

That's because the government and consolidated media doesn't want free thinkers. They want people who follow the status quo.

The role of public schools isn't to produce free thinkers and speakers. It is to get the masses to submit to the government.

Re:Of course they don't know, we don't allow them

[raider_red (156642)]

Why is this a troll? Several educators, not the least of the them a former teacher of the year [johntaylorgatto.com], share this view. Just because it's a controversial idea does not mean that the poster is trolling.

Re:Of course they don't know, we don't allow them

[Mnemia (218659)]

I think you're correct about that - or at least that's how the schools see their role these days. They're really more of a venue for people to push whatever political agenda they personally have than for any real education to take place.

This is the problem with public education in the first place. The government will seek to interfere if given control and the ability to do so. IMHO, the only reason we avoided that kind of crap for a long time in this country was because public education was largely decentralized - funded, run, and controlled by local and state government. But notice that these days the federal government is seeking to interfere more and more all the time? As soon as a central government (or at least ours) takes over total control of education, then it's over for our country. They will produce generations of students who don't know how to question authority in its many forms or be creative, and everything (economy, civil society, etc) will eventually implode. This is why the $50 billion+ budget for the Department of Education really scares me. The reason that money has been appropriated has little to do with improving education and a lot to do with gaining federal leverage over school funding - and by extension, school curriculum.

Alternatively, you could view this as a business opportunity, since you're one of the "smart ones" who realizes what's happening. Just find some sort of useless shit to sell that all the idiots being turned out by public education will just snap up, and you could become rich! Personally, I'm leaning towards trying to figure out a way to exploit the overly religious (since so many people will just buy anything if they think it comes from a "Christian company", etc).

Re:Of course they don't know, we don't allow them

[log0n (18224)]

Just an FYI, civics classes (basing from your id #) like we had in high school haven't been around in nearly a decade. In fact, my junior year of HS (94 iirc) was the year civics was entirely phased out (and I went to good HS, properly sized classes, music and art programs in good check, etc). (I work in a public school system and I just checked the 2004-05 HS Catalog of classes just to make sure I wasn't misinforming)

American History is still taught, but it's basically as a timeline of events. Civics used to cover everything from your responsibilities as a US citizen to the goals and purpose of the amendments, Bill of Rights, etc.

Basically, everything being taught now comes from a point of view of no judgement calls. If there is something open to interpretation, either it's not taught, or it's taught from a historical context as opposed to the 'meaning' or 'message' of said lesson.

It's how you can teach a religious studies class in a HS. You can learn the history, you just can't preach the subject matter. The same rules now apply to 'preaching US citizenship'.

Just FYI.

put yourself in thier shoes

[PrinceAshitaka (562972)]

How should students understand the first amendment right when they yet do not have those rights in public schools? (and I am not saying that they should have them.) for example; "Only half of the students said newspapers should be allowed to publish freely without government approval of stories." That is not surprising as they in thier school newspaper do not have the ability to pubilsh without teacher approval and "About half the students said the government can restrict any indecent material on the Internet. It can't" That is not surprising as thier internet use at school is severly restricted in what they can see. Anouther example is with only 83% of the students saying that expression of unpopular views is acceptible, coming from a very nondemocratic enviorment in schoolI can see how that is easily the situation. Students are under the heel of school officials. although, I am a while out of high school and this was just my experience.

Is it getting better, or worse?

[Gob Blesh It (847837)]

"Only half the students said newspapers should be allowed to publish freely without government approval of stories"? Yikes.

Inside me is a kneejerk activist who wants to point to this as evidence that growing up, as children have since 9/11/01, surrounded by authority figures who casually restrict freedom of speech in the name of guarding against terrorism, encourages children to pattern their thoughts and behavior along similar unfortunate lines.

But actually, I'd like to know what similar studies have been conducted in years past. If this is the way young adults have always thought, then things probably won't get any worse. What would be disturbing is a trend showing young adults finding restrictions on free speech increasingly acceptable.

Ironic

[shreevatsa (845645)]

If everyone except the kids understands the FA so well, why does the article have to clear up things like "...thought flag-burning is illegal. It's not", etc.
Looks like the kids are not the only ones in need of education about the First Amendment?

This shouldn't be surprising...

[damian cosmas (853143)]

...after all, most adults don't know the first amendment, either, when they go off about how parties other than the government are "violating their first amendment rights."

In related findings...

[kzinti (9651)]

...eighty percent of the same group, when asked to locate the USA on a map of North America, pointed to Canada.

U.S. *Adults* Don't Understand the 1st either...

[VE3ECM (818278)]

Seriously, I wonder what the results would be if this study were stretched out to include adults as well as teenagers?

I'd bet dollars-to-donuts the results would be almost identical.

The problem isn't with the kids; it's the system that allows these kids to develop ideas like these that's the problem.
No child left behind, indeed. Does it count when they've *all* been left behind?

Even more scary..

[revscat (35618)]

From the CNN article:

Yet, when told of the exact text of the First Amendment, more than one in three high school students said it goes "too far" in the rights it guarantees. Only half of the students said newspapers should be allowed to publish freely without government approval of stories.

People die to defend these rights, and some of our students don't even know what these rights are?

Hey conservatives! Maybe if instead of worrying about absitence only education and attacking Darwinism you spent your efforts in communicating why and how we are a free society, and why that is of tantamount importance, we could all get along here, hm? Cuz I'll be honest with you, I'll stand shoulder to shoulder with James "Spongebob Is Gay" Dobson if it means we get the message out loud and clear about the Bill of RIghts.

Regarding flag burning

[slavemowgli (585321)]

The funny thing about flag burning and all those attempts to make it illegal (or the idea that it already is) is that when you ask a conservative who actually knows about these things, you'll find out that burning a flag is actually the only proper way to get rid of one when you have to - for example, to prevent it from falling into the hands of the enemy. For some reason, those pushing for a law that would make burning flags illegal never seem to know about that.

Not that I myself care about what happens to a flag in the slightest, of course - if you're a soldier and in a fight, you probably have better things to do than worry about than a piece of cloth that probably was produced in a sweatshop in communist China, anyway.

It's funny how these neocons aren't actually conservative in the actual sense of the word, though.

Who can blame them?

[afabbro (33948)]

After all, it's not like it means what it says. "Congress shall make no law..." has been reinterpreted and watered-down so much that it takes years of graduate study to understand.

The first amendment, after all, doesn't say that "Congress shall make no law except for laws barring child pornography, the exposure of military secrets, and naughty words on the radio."

Not that I don't favor barring child porn, but you know, if you want to do that, you need to change the amendment...

Yeah, yeah, I know all about our English Common Law system and all that. I'm just saying, you can't blame people for not understanding the law...and frankly, the law is always a mushy, malleable pile of goo if the Supreme Court can change the meaning of pretty plain words.

So IOW...

[J'raxis (248192)]

So in other words their government-provided schooling is doing its job.

what do you expect

[Tsiangkun (746511)]

Good Red State American's don't want freedom . . . they want super bowls, super bowl commercials, and cold beer with a born on date. This life is supposed to suck ass, and the more it sucks the bigger the reward in heaven.

Freedom of the press, isn't that what leads to disagreements ? Can't we all just adopt the sanctioned viewpoint of our leaders, put this in the past, and look forward to all the great shopping opportunities we have available in this fine country ?

Try the same study with college kids

[SuperKendall (25149)]

I am not at all surprised by the results, high school kids live in an opressive environment so it's no wonder they think the world is like this.

Far more interesting would be to ask people in college the same question, and see how much an open environment led them to expand expectations of freedoms.

Is this suprising?

[Eslyjah (245320)]

Most Americans don't understand the First Amendment. What percent of Americans know that the First Amendment guarantees religious freedom? What percent know that religious freedom is the first freedom mentioned in the First Amendment? Lots of people seem to think it's only about speech for some reason.

Lack of money for WHAT??

[de_boer_man (459797)]

From the FA:

About nine in 10 principals said it is important for all students to learn some journalism skills, but most administrators say a lack of money limits their media offerings.

More than one in five schools offer no student media opportunities; of the high schools that do not offer student newspapers, 40 percent have eliminated them in the last five years.

Lack of money limits their media offerings, but they'd rather plunge a red-hot porcupine up their asses than cut a football or basketball program, even if their program is losing money.

I don't doubt that schools and students benefit from sporting programs. But what life skills are actually learned in sporting programs? Instead of cutting sports, they cut the arts, funding for computer labs, and so-called "media offerings."

Mr. Holland was right. If they quit teaching anything other than reading and writing, pretty soon the students won't have anything left to read or write about.

It's all about the parenting.

[john_anderson_ii (786633)]

I think it comes down to public school atmosphere and neglected parenting.

Parenting is a full time job for both parents, and reinforcing things taught in school is one faucet of that job. Many parents, my friends included, think their kids education and well-roundedness will be the result of attending classes in school. They couldn't be more wrong. A U.S. History or U.S. Government teacher has one hour a day in which to cram a 3 hour course-required schedule to 30 students in a crammed classroom. At least that's the way it is in Arizona, one of the worst states for public schooling.

As far as the kids are concerned going to school is something that takes place when they aren't living their lives. I mean, learning is something they do in bits and spurts during a 1 hour course, and it can be thrown out the window during the after school trip to the mall with their friends.

It's really up to the parents to get involved and reinforce the ideas and priciples taught by the public school system. Only by making the student think and ponder the concept of Freedom of Speech will that concept become meaningful to the student, and they can then develop their own opinions about it. Making the student truly ponder it can be a simple dinner table discussion between the student and his or her parents and family.

Unfortunately I know too many parents who send their kids off to school so the parents can do their own thing, then send the kids off to play when the kids get home so the parents can continue to do their own thing. I wish more parents would take the education of their children farther than punishing or rewarding the kids based on the merits of their report cards.

RTFA

[de1orean (851146)]

hmmm. maybe now "RTFA" can mean "read the first amendment"?

despite its inherent lack of profanity, i like it.

Re:The Constitution

[fishbowl (7759)]

>The constitution also doesn't say "separation of
> church and state" .... but I wish it did.

It does. Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

That is the very essence of the doctrine of separation of church and state, and goes much further to protect this fundamental right of the people than your wished-for clause would.

Re:The Constitution

[by Anonymous Coward]

"respecting an establishment of religion..."

IOW, not making laws that discriminate between different sects.

Yes, it's true. Etymology helps, so does reading history. It's sad, most people don't know history, and don't read much either.

Re:The Constitution

[Wildfire Darkstar (208356)]

This is a disturbingly common reading of the phrase, and, understood in historical context, it's still wrong.

The grandparent post was right, though: etymology does help. As does grammar. The object of the sentence is not "religion": it's "establishment of religion." In this context, it most likely means organized religion as a whole. In other words, a passably acceptable paraphrase is "Congress can't make laws which deal with religion," not "Congress can't establish a state religion." You cannot parse the sentence that way (correctly, at least)! In any case, "establishment" is a noun, not a verb: I can't "establishment" a religion, and neither can Congress.

To be sure, yes, this means that Congress can't establish a state religion. But it means quite a bit more than that, when you actually sit down and start thinking through the repurcussions of it all. It means, in short, that any sort of preferential/discriminatory treatment of any religion on the part of Congress is disallowed. Which is how the Supreme Court has long interpreted it (that being a major part of their job, an' all...) and how the phrase was commonly understood until a bunch of people who really should know better decided to start flaunting the grammatical structure of English in service of misguided spiritual ideals (IMO).

Very slanted interpetation there.

[Shivetya (243324)]

The problem is that the courts always overlook the word CONGRESS.

That is the key. Congress can make no law, nothing in the Constitution prevents states or their legislatures from doing it. What does it the over extension of the Federal Courts into the business of the States.

Allowing children to read a prayer at their graduation is not a violation of the First Amendment. In fact it probably is more of a violation of the intent of the First to prevent the students from doing just that.

First take away their ability to practice religion. Second make them rely more on their govenment and state appointed officials. Third thing is to ban certain types of speech by law or itimidation (hate speech).

Do not read into the First what is clearly not there. The Congress already recognizes major religious holidays which would clearly be against the First but I don't see anyone crying over that.

The First was meant to protect religions from dominance by one over another, not to put them all out of the public eye.

Re:Two things

[smooth wombat (796938)]

Had the story I submitted been posted rather than this blurb you would have been given the information you asked for. Since it's not included in the blurb that was accepted here is your answer. Here is the link [cpanda.org] to the results of the study itself. It's a .pdf document.

This is the link [cpanda.org] to the opening page which describes the methodology and other information about the study.

Way to go editors. Please don't include actual information for stories.

For those interested you can check my journal for some of the stories which were rejected to see what you've been missing.

Re:Not just the first amendment

[Jeffrey Baker (6191)]

Well now we know, the high school kids are ignorant because they've been listening to this misinformation they find on Slashdot. The above post demonstrates the problem. The poster, speaking in an authoritative tone, makes a statement which is completely false. "So, just like the first amendment can't be altered or abolished, the 2nd, 5th, 9th, or 10th can't either." That isn't true. Any part of the Constitution can be altered or repealed, or the whole document can be scrapped by a constitutional convention.

Actually, you're kind of wrong

[Old Man Kensey (5209)]

CrimsonAvenger wrote:

There is NO "preamble" to the Bill of Rights.

Actually, in a manner of speaking, there is. The OP's quote is taken from the original proposed amendments [loc.gov] to the Constitution, said list being drawn up by Congress an approved on March 1, 1789. As a note, there was a preamble to said list, it did include the quote as cited by the OP, and there were twelve proposed amendments, of which one was never approved and one was approved in 1992. The First Amendment was originally "Article the Third".

Re:Wake up, everyone

[iLEZ (594245)]

Because, you should be allowed to show maimed, bleeding iraqis and american soldiers on television, but not burn certain pieces of cloth.
[/irony]

And if i may quote the words of the late Bill Hicks:

"Hey buddy, my dad died for that flag"
"Really?...I bought mine...They sell 'em in K-Mart and ****..."
"yeah..He died in Korea for that flag"
"Wow, what a coincidence. Mine was made in Korea..the world is THAT big man..."
No-one, and I repeat NO-ONE has ever died for a flag. A flag is a piece of cloth, they might have died for freedom, which, by the way, is the freedom to....Burn the.. ****ing flag you see??..Burning the flag doesn't make freedom go away, it's kinda like Free-dom ok?..ok.
And they've had 4 cases in this country's 200 year history, so it's not that big an issue. One of the hotter smokescreens they've put down the pipe. I don't wanna burn a flag, but what business is it of mine if you do?
Is it my business if someone wants to..Is it?...NO
Is it my business what other people read or watch on TV? NO IT'S NOT...THANK YOU
You see, when we talk these things through, it becomes a little clearer doesn't it? That's called logic and it'll help us all evolve and get on the ****ing spaceships and get outta here.