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China's Superior Technologies
Posted by
michael
on Thu Nov 04, 2004 11:32 AM
from the no-laurel-resting dept.
from the no-laurel-resting dept.
paRcat writes "Still think China is a land too far away from everything? This article compares some of China's common uses of technology to what we're accustomed to in the West. With the genius traffic lights and the cell phone coverage... I'm kinda jealous."
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Statistics (Score:3, Insightful)
They are clearly putting in far more effort than any western government to modernize their country.
A government for the people, what a novel thought.
Re:Statistics (Score:5, Informative)
With a "government for the people"?
Hello? Is there anybody home?
In China you get into jail for saying what you think. People are imprisoned and tortured. Human rights violated. How much a nerd does one need to be in order to trade cellphone coverage for freedom?
(Amnesty International's report on China is worth a read: http://web.amnesty.org/report2004/chn-summary-eng
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Re:Statistics (Score:4, Funny)
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and we have... (Score:5, Insightful)
We even export our human rights violations.
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Re:Statistics (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm so glad we're free.
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Re:Statistics (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Statistics (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Statistics (Score:5, Interesting)
This is one of the tradeoffs between free markets and command economies. Although free markets are great from the point of view of moving quickly to a local optimum in resource utilization, their coverage and consistency are spotty. Command economies tend to pick winners too early and their implementations can be inefficient and hang around too long, but they usually achieve complete coverage and relative consistency.
The best of both worlds is when you "let a thousand flowers bloom" in the early stages, pick a winner for full implementation, and revisit the infrastructure choices on a regular basis to reopen debate. Of course, ideologues of either stripe would usually disavow this solution, as that might force them to widen their narrow models of the world - far too painful to comptemplate!
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"Let a thousand flowers bloom," Historical Backgrd (Score:5, Informative)
"Let a thousand flowers bloom," was more or less a political tactic by Mao to exterminate his enemies in the Communist Party. Not sure what this has to do with economic policy and such.
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Re:Government of the people? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:A government for the people? (Score:4, Insightful)
Why is that insightful?
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Re:A government for the people? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:lesson of Japan's stagnation (Score:5, Interesting)
Though part of it is what you are talking about.
Their research isn't progressing where it needs to yet. Their country devoted itself singlemindedly to the war, then to industrial and economic growth, now they feel they are better than everyone else so they are essentially wanking.
If you go for a haircut there will be 6 haircutters, people sweep the streets in business suits. Basically their entire economy went from manufacturing to service in a generation.
Service economies are total bullshit, guess what YOU CAN DO IT YOURSELF!
The U.S. went from a manufacturing economy in the 50's to a pure greed mentality in the 80's to a purely consumer driven society in the 90's. It's amazing how changes like this can sweep a whole nation.
Unfortunatly all these trends are negative, it's just the ignorant bouncing around. The people really gettting work done just say, hey there's this thing, might be worth doing, let's do it.
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Re:lesson of Japan's stagnation (Score:5, Insightful)
In USA when the economy suffers, it is mostly the poor on whom it is taken out on. They lose insurance, they lose their jobs and so on. In Japan, they stop growing but guess what, they are not really sweating it. They value different things. Americans value riches and expensive cars. The Japanese actually do get by with Toyotas. Witness how the Lexus brand ws only recently introduced in Japan after being in USA and Europe for the past 20 odd years. And it is owned wholly by a Japanese company. Because the Japanese do not have such big brand mentality, they will be buy a Toyota for the equivalent of $80,000. Americans will have none of that.
USAs GPD per Capita is inflated by the very rich. Japan has one of the smallest, if not the smallest Gini coefficients in the world. There is much more even wealth distribution than in USA. The USA is a country full of individuals, but Japan is more of a community.
In many ways Japan is far ahead of the USA. They still produce higher quality goods than USA and indeed just about every other country.
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Come on, superior technology? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Come on, superior technology? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Come on, superior technology? (Score:5, Insightful)
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China will be the next big innovator (Score:3, Insightful)
The USA refuses to adopt alternative fuels and prices are rising as fuel needs go up. Watch for china to lead the way in alternative fuel development and be the sole leader in the world. They need a cheap fuel soure to reach their goals of being a (or the) superpower.
Our dependency because we are lapdogs of Saudi Arabia is going to bite us in the ass. We will be the ones buying the technology from the Chinese.
Re:China will be the next big innovator (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:China will be the next big innovator (Score:4, Interesting)
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Re:China will be the next big innovator (Score:4, Informative)
I think America ignored European patents in the 18th and 19th century.
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Re:Or not (Score:5, Insightful)
Regarding innovation, you are 100% correct -- that is the US' prime advantage. That plus abundant natural resources which can be exported, or at least support self-sufficiency. Even regarding oil, I believe the US only gets 30% of its supply from OPEC.
Fortunately China is beholden to the US still in many regards. Its needs the US markets to sell products too; it relies upon the US currency to supply economic stability and prevent inflation in China while they go through this boom; and they need North America to provide raw materials and resources. We're a long way from the sunsetting of the American empire, but the US will be facing a new world power as a competitor (if its not already).
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use of technology (Score:5, Insightful)
China has something western society should model after. It kills me how often I hear, "We have always done it that way, why change"
But (Score:3, Funny)
We're installing breakfast nooks and berber carpeting all on credit at 28% interest compounded daily! We have Disney trademark paint color choices at Home Repo! We're modern too!
Count down traffic lights are a really bad idea (Score:4, Interesting)
Cell Phones vs. Landlines (Score:5, Insightful)
Almost every developing nation has a higher rate of cell-phone coverage than the US (and many other "western" nations.)
The Bell System and the various state-owned monopolies built reliable, universal landline networks across these countries almost a century ago. Since the majority of the infrastructure has already been made and paid off decades ago, use of these networks today is commonplace (and very affordable.) The technology is often proven, well tested, and reliable (often regulated.) Cell phones, on the other hand, are more expensive and less reliable.
In developing nations, the landline systems are often unreliable and not much cheaper (if at all) than mobile systems. Users in these countries have every reason to invest in mobile phones. I wonder if this will continue to be the case with the deployment of VoIP systems.
Pants Hemming (Score:4, Funny)
Advanced traffic lights? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Advanced traffic lights? (Score:4, Funny)
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Simple explanation (Score:4, Funny)
Enter the Red-Red/Red-Green light. Now the light just stays red all the time, since you're going to run it anyway - but the green light tells you when it's safe to run, and the second red tells you when it's safe to stop!
Taking away the yellow makes it a simple state transition that reduces incidences of people speeding up for a light. And both directions change instantly, making it far more efficient as you never have an awkward moment when cars are not going through an intersection.
Yes sir, that is is traffic light of the future.
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Superior? (Score:5, Informative)
Sure, we don't have everything on the list though. I'd love to have those intelligent stop lights for instance.
I guess the bottom line is that Canada is pretty far behind.
Re:Superior? (Score:5, Funny)
You live in Sweden and have been too busy playing with gadgets to notice hot blondes everywhere
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Absolutely untrue myth about Sweden (Score:4, Interesting)
I am an American student, fluent enough in Swedish, working on a degree in Sweden. I can tell you as an insider that they are neither hot nor blonde--anymore. Those women went extinct in the Eighties. Right now, they are my professors and bosses--not my peers. A list of grievences:
100% dead-serious: At our student union building, we have an annual Bad Taste Party, where one dresses in bad taste, naturally. I could not tell--I honesty sat through a half-hour of our pre-party without noticing that was the theme.
In conclusion, if you are coming to Sweden to have good-looking lovers, only do so if you are a gay man--you'll save yourself a lot of disappointment.
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Cool stuff (Score:5, Insightful)
However, some of these seem great because they didn't have to replace old technology. They mentioned how landlines were never popular, so they went from no phones straight to cell phones. The US had to piggy back the new system on the old system.
So in 20 years, will they still be cutting edge, or will they be surpassed by other countries that either are just technologically developing or have been developed for a while and are "upgrading".
Great... (Score:5, Insightful)
Remember people, this is the world's biggest nation (by population), with the real potential to be the world's biggest manufacturer and the world's biggest marketplace. And, remember, that that potential is starting to be realised: China already has a import surplus of billions with most Western countries, including the US, and China is now starting to become a real consumer culture in its own right.
They may have given everyone else a head-start but then so did Japan and Germany post-WWII, and look at how powerful their economies have become.
Re:Great... (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:Great... (Score:4, Interesting)
They built a maglev train to Shanghai airport. Nuff said.
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this isn't superior technology (Score:5, Insightful)
Still.. Re:this isn't superior technology (Score:4, Interesting)
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Let's not forget (Score:5, Informative)
You can't drink the water from the tap
Hocking loogies in public seems to be a national pastime
Air pollution so bad that on some days it looks foggy
Diseases like malaria and dengue fever (more a 3rd world than 1st world problem)
China may have cool tech, but the basic infrastructure sucks.
It had to be said. (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously. Don't you think there's a cost to all this? Do you really think a republic like the US could do something like this?
The fact is -- it would be easier for us to modernize Iraq than it would be to modernize the US. Authoritarian control makes everything a ton easier for the government at the expense of the people.
Pick your poison.
Waitasec, being in China... (Score:5, Informative)
The modernization of Chinese technology is less important than the quality of life of its people. In my opinion, they need to focus less on getting every single person in their country internet and more on getting every single person in their country fed and clean.
Convenience vs Profit (Score:4, Insightful)
Supermarkets and other retail outlets are perfect examples of this. It's the classic service vs. price.
Even the stop lights in the article are an example of this. Most citizens would rather have dumb traffic lights and lower taxes than smart ones and higher taxes. Unfortunately this leads to a lifestyle that is filled with minor incoveniences.
A sad indicator of this is how surprised we are when someone gives us good service without charging us an extra fee.
Would it be stupid of me.... (Score:4, Insightful)
But those are First World countries! They should be superior in EVERY WAY!
Nonsense. This First World/Third World delineation is extremely rough, at best.
China is a rapidly developing country. While there are factors which still relegate it status to 'third' world, they have come a long way, and will make it to first world soon.
The thing is, you don't always get optimum deployment of technology in a wealthier society, and this has little to do with the economic system (Capitalism, Communism, Socialism, Anythingism).
In a nutshell: The economic system determines who has the power to allocate wealth/resources.
Then, this decision maker decides how much of societies resources should be spent on what developments.
If 'smart' stoplights are not a high priority, even if 'dumb' ones are an annoyance, you won't get them, period. Even in Utopia.
In China, government decision makers simply implemenent whatever policy they feel is appropriate.
In the U.S., popular demand determines the allocation of wealth and resources. Don't think that I am naive enough to not realize that large companies&governments are capable of influencing this demand. Still, by deciding how much you are willing to pay for a certain service, or expressing your political preference by voting, you contribute to averaged indicators that establish this allocation.
In the U.S., people are willing to spend less of the adjusted per capita wealth on cell phones than are people living in Europe, or Japan.
As such, our cell service is crappier. Sure, there are geeks like you (slashdot reader) & me who want better service. But the Jane Doe's of the U.S. bring the average down.
The same thing probably happens with regards to Jane Doe's preferences. I might not be interested in what she wants, and as such, I bring the average allocation down with regards to her preferences.
You see clear, similar trends with regards to broadband service. Price is simply more important that quality of service/performance, and as such, as a society we allocate less towards our Broadband, and we have crappier service.
Now that you are conceptualizing resource allocation as I have described, the effects of government become clearer.
In much of the rest of the world, governments have 'kickstarted' demand by providing for an initial investments in broadband, cell service, and other 'public' goods.
You get better service, but the costs involved in the government 'kickstarting' necessairly come from somewhere else.
This government influence necessairly introduces economic inefficeny.
Not that that is always bad, mind you. I certainly accept that economic inefficency is necessary such that our resource allocation is not totally mindless/mob oriented.
But we need to consider that it is a spectrum. Somewhere between total government control of everything economic allocation, and total free market laissez faire absurditiy, is the world where I want to live.
Wow. This has been rather long winded. In sum, and in short, all I'm really trying to say is that a certain country not having, or having, various technology improvements does not mean that country is doing worse, or better, than other nations. Specific aspects of resource allocation are not a good way to summarize notions of wealth.
They are more important indicators. Not that the U.S. is doing particularly well in these other indicators. But we aren't doing so badly, and I feel that discussions of these indicators are far more important that discussions of anti-theft slip covers, or smart traffic lights.
Just my 20000000 cents.
American's Know VERY Little About Today's China (Score:5, Interesting)
Very few Americans know much at all about China.
People THINK they do but to someone like me (i.e. a white guy who spends months at a time each year in China, is married to a Chinese woman, is well versed in China's history both recent and ancient and speaks Mandarin), listening to American folks discuss China is almost always very frustrating.
The country is not nearly as oppressive as some of you seem to think. Communism is really just a WORD over there... not an ideology... not anymore. Yes the government has it's problems and for the most part are not too well liked but daily life in China (well, for city dwelling, college educated people anyway) is little different from life here. People own pets, they don't eat them, they have cars, cell phones, high speed internet, live (and thus, not so controlled by the government) news on TV, they go shopping, walk in the park, meet friends for coffee, hit the clubs on Friday and Saturday night or go see a soccer match, whatever.
Many places in China would strike the most ardent neo-conservative as the very height of capitalism. Contrary to what one person posted you CAN talk about/criticise/make fun of the government. I have talked with so very many Chinese about their government and they are usually quite frank. No one is hiding behind their hand whispering, no one is "disappeared". Last time I was there (May-August 2004) there were even some fairly large labor protests in a nortern city. Protests that were not crushed, put down, blocked. We just don't hear about this sort of stuff in the states. Viewed objectively (my wife, a professor of communications, has done much research in the area of media coverage between China and the USA), our government's opinions regarding China, the average citizens beliefs on China and the stories we get about China from our media leave us with a general impression that is, quite simply, wrong and negatively biased.Statistically about equal to the bias you would find in the Chinese press about the USA.
Technologically, China IS rapidly pulling ahead of the U.S.A. in many areas (cell phone technology and IT in particular) and China has it's "Microsofts" waiting in the wings eyeing the world market (the Lenovo Group [hoovers.com] (formerly known as Legend Group) in particular). Bottom line is, most Americans don't know enough about China to make any sort of accurate commentary regarding it. Yes there are many problems in China and with it's government but it is much closer to life here (once again, in the cities, not the countryside) than you probably think.
Re:Existing infrastructure (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Existing infrastructure (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Parking, Transit Debit, Lights that Blink--In M (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:gotta admire that forced prison labor... (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:It's not really that great... (Score:4, Interesting)
Look at the big picture. Large country, large population, technical savy, individually not wealthy but as a country very wealthy, and most importantly very secretive. Not much news gets in our out that they that the gov. doesn't control. Even internet access is managed.
They could kick a little US ass without blinking an eye. They could lose an entire US population worth of soldiers and still come out smiling.
Look at the N. Korea issue. US didn't have to deal with it, just nicely asked China to speak with them. After some humming and hawing China sends over a low level Gov. official and N. Korea goes quiet. Like the freakin mofia.
Scares the crap outa me when I think about it to hard. I have to stop now.
lalala.....flowers and trees....lalala.....
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