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Space

Europe's New ET Life Search Programme 221

Posted by Hemos from the testing-the-galaxy dept.
hotsauce writes "The Guardian has a report on Europe's ambitious new programme to search for extra terrestial life. ESA has started a program called Cosmic Visions which will launch a series of satelites, starting with Gaia in 2011, and possibly culminating with the Exo-Earth Imager, a mission consisting of 10.000 3-metre mirror telescopes. The French are leading the charge with Corot in 2008."
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Europe's New ET Life Search Programme More

Europe's New ET Life Search Programme

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  • New processing algorithms (Score:5, Informative)

    by 2.7182 ( 819680 ) on Monday October 25, 2004 @12:22PM (#10621625)
    I've heard about new algorithms that are going into effect at the Aricibo telescope that use wavelets to get much better results. Apparently a lot of old data is going to be re analyzed.
  • For those who didn't know.
    • Nothing is lost with the exchange rate? 10.000 in Europe, may be 9,976 in the U.S.
    • Whew, thats a relief... I didn't think they needed 5 significant digits to express a 2 digit integer value.
      • I had the exact same worry. I was a little relieved that they weren't sending up 10.552 3-meter 'scopes.

        -Jesse
      • >>Whew, thats a relief... I didn't think they needed 5 significant digits to express a 2 digit integer value.

        Yeah, from a CS view I see that. I was thinking of precision from chem... they know they have approximately 10 telescopes, to within .001 of a telescope; in reality there are 10.000394654(...) telescopes in use. :)

        Ok, this horse is dead, anyone need the flog?

    • Yes, and for those who don't know, it is an error to write ten thousand as 10.000 when you are writing in English, regardless of your nationality. Using English as your language but a period/full stop as your thousands separator means you have an inconsistent localization, requiring the need for a "translation" such as the parent post to finish the job. Likewise, it is an error for an English speaker to use commas as thousands separators when writing in a language such as German.

  • Talk about accuracy... (Score:5, Funny)

    by over_exposed ( 623791 ) on Monday October 25, 2004 @12:26PM (#10621667) Homepage
    ...a mission consisting of 10.000 3-metre mirror telescopes.

    This is an upgrade to previous versions of the plan that called for 8.735 3-metre mirror telescopes. Adding that 1.265 mirrors really helps I'm sure.

  • Trying to contact ET (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Average_Joe_Sixpack ( 534373 ) on Monday October 25, 2004 @12:26PM (#10621670)
    NPR [npr.org] did a story on the most efficient way to search for extra-terrestrial life, where it would be more efficient (energy/economic) to send craft out to distant solar systems rather than beam signals there. Apparantly the loss in signal strength is so severe (inverse square law) that signals get lost in the cosmic background.

    • Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)

      by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Monday October 25, 2004 @12:36PM (#10621779)
      Comment removed based on user account deletion
      • "I say the most efficient way is to just wait for them to come invade us. Uses no resources."

        Well, we would use no resources. But they would take all ours...

        and at least one beautiful woman to make her their bride, if Ming the Merciless is to be taken as archetype.

    • Re:Trying to contact ET (Score:4, Interesting)

      by stecoop ( 759508 ) on Monday October 25, 2004 @12:38PM (#10621808) Journal
      Was it also NPR that ran a story that most some SETI scientist are starting to think that radio waves is the wrong place to look. Some now believe that lasers [space.com] would be used by more advanced civilizations as radio waves would be used but a brief history of the civilization.
      • I think searching for alien intelligence is overrated, but as long as you're doing it, using radio frequencies is not that bad.

        Advanced civilizations would realize that the ability to generate magnetic waves of a particular spectrum would be pretty universal, at least among alien groups with which we'd be able to communicate at all.

      • Art Bell, the retired/semi-retired late-night radio host, in the mid-to-late nineties frequently had as a guest Ed Dames, a former military psychic aka "remote viewer". Dames was generally pretty outlandish in his visions--I remember something about pregnant martians overrunning secret military bases in the southwestern US--but I recall that he once speculated that SETI would have better luck if they searched for lasers.

      • Was it also NPR that ran a story that most some SETI scientist are starting to think that radio waves is the wrong place to look. Some now believe that lasers would be used by more advanced civilizations as radio waves would be used but a brief history of the civilization.

        Other scientist are suggesting that actually sending something physical over (i.e. a disk :) ) is much more efficient than beaming radio waves [physorg.com]. Its the old FedEx comp-sci problem - an overnight FedEx with a large DAT tape has more bandw

    • An issue with that is that spacecraft are slow.

      Another poster mentioned lasers, but a problem is that lasers are so rediculously focused that you need to be in the general direction, and looking in the direction of the laser to pick it up. Space is very big and it looks like the odds of picking up a signal are rediculously small.
      • An issue with that is that spacecraft are slow.
        Maybe yours is slow! ;)
        • An issue with that is that spacecraft are slow. Maybe yours is slow! ;)

          You think yours is fast? Mine can do the Kessel run in under 12 parsecs

          NB: I always had trouble at school differentiating between time and distance ;)

      • Re:Trying to contact ET (Score:4, Informative)

        by magarity ( 164372 ) on Monday October 25, 2004 @01:03PM (#10622063)
        a problem is that lasers are so rediculously focused

        At point of sending, yes, lasers are very focused. However they spread very widely over interstellar distances. Still, from a conservation of energy point of view a laser is much more efficient than blasting radio in all direction.

        But I think it depends on the nature of the communiction. If alien civilization #1 at star A already knows #2 is located at star B then laser is absolutely the way to go. Radio is more of a shout in the dark method. Whether you believe there are wolves or other travellers in the dark depends on whether you shout.
    • did a story on the most efficient way to search for extra-terrestrial life

      Sending probes is beyond our technology as a way to search for life - you have to either expect a return contact from the more advanced civilization or radio back the findings yourself. We can barely pickup the Voyager signals and they're still in our own solar system.

      It's also a pretty hit-or-miss way to contact other life.

      Imagine if we were on the receiving end. Say they were shining a laser at us - with a powerful enough lase

  • Coordinated? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by LewsTherinKinslayer ( 817418 ) <lewstherinkinslayer@gmail.com> on Monday October 25, 2004 @12:26PM (#10621671) Homepage
    Are these efforts being coordinated with other such programs, such as SETI?

    • Different from SETI (Score:5, Interesting)

      by stratjakt ( 596332 ) on Monday October 25, 2004 @12:41PM (#10621833) Journal
      This is about looking for planets, then analysing them to see if they have the conditions to support life (oxygen, co2, methane). SETI is about trying to recieve radio signals created by intelligent beings out there.

      In short, this is looking for any sort of possible life, SETI is looking for "ET phone home".

      SETI is fundamentally flawed, since even now we on Earth are broadcasting less and less out into space. We're using microwave and lasers to talk to our satellites, and everything on the ground is getting wired, or fed from satellites.

      The days of gigawatt broadcasting over radio bands is winding to an end, so we only will have made "noise" for a century or so.

      One could assume an intelligent race would outgrow the technology just as we have, or never use it in the first place.

      SETI is like trying to find modern Native Americans by looking for smoke signals, when they communicate using the phone or internet these days.

      • Re:Different from SETI (Score:2, Informative)

        by andymar ( 690982 )
        SETI is not flawed, it's designed primarily to intercept signals sent on purpose towards us. Even if ET has long ago stopped leaking radio signals to space, they could easily beam us some messages.

        For the past few hundred million years, advanced ET could see that life is present on our planet. This is because of the amount of oxygen and water vapor in the atmosphere. With a large enough telescope ET could even observe continents on Earth.

        So it's not far-fetched to think that ET would call us.

      • Re:Different from SETI (Score:5, Insightful)

        by thesandtiger ( 819476 ) on Monday October 25, 2004 @01:45PM (#10622472)
        While I don't necessarily disagree, I don't think that we're necessarily looking in the wrong place. Imagine a civilization far in advance of our own using some sort of communications technology we can't even imagine as yet. Surely it wouldn't be too difficult for them to make a massively powerful radio transmitter to call out? In fact, I can see one very good reason to think there might be such a beacon made by an advanced civilization. Think about all the trials and tribulations we're going through right now, all this uncertainty about whether or not humanity will survive - about whether it is even possible *for* us to survive our technology. Then imagine we get a signal from space, from another civilization, one that went through what we did. "We're here, we survived, and you can too. Good luck, and welcome to the universe." Call me sappy, but I can think of no better message we could receive.

        • Re:Different from SETI (Score:3, Informative)

          by mforbes ( 575538 )
          Worse, however, would be a message saying "We survived, but all the other civilizations to which we sent this message perished shortly after receiving it. Apparently the very knowledge of sentient life, apart from their own, so violated their religious principles that they self-destructed."

          This is, of course, assuming that any ETs actually -have- religious beliefes.
        • What makes you think they would not rather have us implode?
      • SETI is fundamentally flawed, since even now we on Earth are broadcasting less and less out into space. We're using microwave and lasers to talk to our satellites, and everything on the ground is getting wired, or fed from satellites.

        Where did you get the impression that SETI is looking for radio leakage from a civilization?

        Or are you just out for a morning troll?
    • SETI is not a unique program, it's a general abbreviation (Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence) that covers every possible attempt to find SEnTIent life outside Earth. There are many SETI programs, Berkeley's SETI@Home is probably the most famous now.

  • Notice how they've given up ... (Score:5, Funny)

    by RealAlaskan ( 576404 ) on Monday October 25, 2004 @12:26PM (#10621674) Homepage Journal
    Remember how they used to look for intelligent life? Now they've lowered their sights, and will settle for just life.

    I guess they got so discouraged by not being able to find any intelligent life here on earth that they just gave up on finding it out there, too. Oh, well, if we had found intelligent life, we probably couldn't have figured out what to do with it anyway.

  • 10,000? (Score:5, Funny)

    by turboflux ( 781551 ) on Monday October 25, 2004 @12:27PM (#10621681)
    10,000 satellites...

    *Collective shudder from Chinese villagers*

  • Doesn't it go without saying... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by shawn(at)fsu ( 447153 ) on Monday October 25, 2004 @12:28PM (#10621690) Homepage
    ambitious new programme to search for extra terrestial life.

    I think any program to search for ET is ambitious.

  • Assumptions about ETs (Score:5, Interesting)

    by ShatteredDream ( 636520 ) on Monday October 25, 2004 @12:30PM (#10621716) Homepage
    Many scifi enthusiasts often assume that our outlook on life is primitive, and that alien races advanced enough to be space-faring races would "clearly" be more civilized than us. I have never seen the logic in that. What if our brutality is the norm for how most races behave? Do we really want to contact potentially many races that would regard us with at least the contempt, as a species, that we regard "lower life forms?" At least without making serious moves toward a more advanced state of technological advancement.

    I remember an article on TechCentralStation discussed how absurd it was for anyone to assume that there couldn't be a race like the predators from the predator series. Who says that civilizations evolve the same way? A tribal warrior culture might actually thrive better in space than ours...

    • Re:Assumptions about ETs (Score:3, Insightful)

      by nizo ( 81281 )
      Well in that case it seems pretty important that we find other races first so we can arm ourselves before they "discover" earth. I think we are safe from discovery since we haven't been broadcasting too long and any species that monitors our transmissions for long (especially TV) will be lulled into a stupor too quickly to come get us anyway.
      • Are you kidding ? One look at the A-Team and there's noooo way they'll be wanting to pick a fight with us.. any race of beings than can construct a working atomic battle tank complete with grenade launcher and working DU-round ballistic cannon from the contents of the average henchmans backyard shed is *not* worth going toe to toe with... and I _pity_ the fool who tries to get B.A. up in that spaceship...

        --
        11/2/04 - Isn't there something we should be doing that day ?

    • Re:Assumptions about ETs (Score:5, Insightful)

      by justforaday ( 560408 ) on Monday October 25, 2004 @12:45PM (#10621877)
      Do we really want to contact potentially many races that would regard us with at least the contempt, as a species, that we regard "lower life forms?"

      Seems to me that we need to first move beyond considering other members of our own species "lower life forms"
    • Many scifi enthusiasts often assume that our outlook on life is primitive, and that alien races advanced enough to be space-faring races would "clearly" be more civilized than us. I have never seen the logic in that.

      I believe the reasoning is that if a race manages to survive long enough after the discovery of atomic power, it will be civilized enough, and atomic power should reasonably come centuries before the ability to travel to other stars.

      It could very well be that alien races only contact other al

      • Re:Assumptions about ETs (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Auton ( 783109 ) on Monday October 25, 2004 @01:35PM (#10622373)
        It all comes back to Fermi's paradox. If there are intelligent (I prefer the term 'sophont') alien life forms out there, why haven't they contacted us?

        One solution says 'because they don't want to'. I find that solution very plausible at the current juncture. Odds are that if there is, in fact, a conglomerate of alien nations out there, they've set down a network of powerful signal-dampening sattelites around our solar system (the Oort cloud would be a good hiding place), controlled by a very strong AI which filters the transmissions reaching us, so that only natural phenomena and signals of our own making ever reach us. This could even be standard procedure for worlds below a certain level of technology. This is called the 'Prime Directive' solution, after Gene Roddenberry's Prime Directive from Star Trek.

        Of course, another (more Occam-friendly) solution to the paradox is "Because there aren't any"...
        • Another possibility is that the natural evolution of a civilization is to either quickly make it to a technological Singularity, or destroy themselves in the process. Such a civilization would then be so far advanced as to view us like we view ants (yet behave more benevolently).

          Additionally, it might turn out that the speed of light is a hardlimit (no warp?!) and the most intelligent course of action is to disassemble all the planets in your solar system to build an efficient matrioshka brain [aeiveos.com] around your

          • "...it might turn out that the speed of light is a hardlimit (no warp?!) and the most intelligent course of action is to disassemble all the planets in your solar system to build an efficient matrioshka brain around your star..."

            Don't see how. The speed that matters is the one that we can reach. If that, coupled with the distance to a desired star, is less than the life-span of a sufficient ship, you'll find volunteers.

            The Matrioshka Brain idea does leave you at the mercy of the star, however. Per
    • The sci-fi assumption of socially advanced/peaceful aliens comes from the idea that if they weren't peaceful, they'd have destroyed themselves long before becoming powerful enough to travel. Which makes a certain amount of sense if you think about it. The cost of destroying humanity decreases as our technology advances - imagine the people of today with their hands on the bio-technology of the future. We'll *have* to advance culturally or we're fucked. Not to be all gloom and doom or anything :p
      • Correct - it's the increasing *gap* between our old evolutionary psychology and our exponentially advancing technology that is so dangerous.

        We can only hope that Intelligence Amplification (IA/AI), mind 'uploading' off of fragile bioware, space exploration, and other tech arrives *before* some selfish Joe Schmoe primate tribe is too easily able to take out humanity in one bang/whimper.

        A good read on this idea: The Great Filter [gmu.edu]

        --

    • The problem I have with the Predators -- and similar SFnal aliens such as the current Star Trek version of the Klingons -- is that "tribal warrior cultures" might be very good at conquering other planets, but they're unlikely to come up with the technology to do so in the first place. In our own history, warrior cultures have only enjoyed brief success at empire, and usually only when they ripped off useful technology from their more peacefully minded neighbors. Barbarian nomads may be tough, but always b

  • The reason we've haven't found aliens (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 25, 2004 @12:30PM (#10621718)
    Is because we've been searching using imperial-measure radio wavelengths. Once we switch to metric wavelengths and start decoding in French, we'll finally be able to understand them.

  • This could is a good thing (Score:3, Insightful)

    by davesplace1 ( 729794 ) on Monday October 25, 2004 @12:31PM (#10621727) Journal
    I glad to see other Nations exploring space, we could all learn something. It could even spark up NASA to get on the ball.
  • The first, Gaia, will use a single telescope to create an extraordinarily precise three-dimensional map of a billion stars throughout our galaxy and will reveal exo-planets by the disturbing effect they have on their parent stars' movements.

    stay away from the Beta Quadrant. We all know those Romulans and Klingons don't take kindly to unauthorized surveillance activity.

  • We search for a pattern in radio signals to find proof of intelligence, yet we look at a strand of DNA and not see it.
    • Yes, I too am appaled that scientist don't leap to conlusions about non-human intelligence, based upon the existence of a possibly random collection of molecules.

      Hell, Ethanol is pretty good, the way those carbons and hydrogens just line up, must have been made by an Intelligent Designer.
      • Ethanol doesn't go on for billions of base pairs and look very much like someone's designed a method for encoding, correcting and replicating living things.. it's algebra protein data transmission.. I'm not sure mr occam's sharpened the blade enough on this one yet...
    • I've always wondered whether DNA has some form of checksum capability built in. We know that there are genes that can repair DNA and that there are genes that can prevent uncontrolled division of cells, but we barely know how they interact, let alone how they work.

    • Insightful? Bullshit! (Score:4, Insightful)

      by SteveM ( 11242 ) on Monday October 25, 2004 @01:33PM (#10622351)

      This shows a deep lack of understanding about what is being searched for.

      The pattern being looked for is a pattern that cannot arise via natural processes.

      DNA can be explained as a result of natural processes. Note that I said CAN. It is only those processes for which a natural process can not be provided for which intelligence can be inferred.

      Consider the discovery of pulsars. They caused quite a stir at the time. But since a natural process was discovered that could explain then, the original thoughts that they might be evidence of intelligent life was quickly discarded.

      It is the same with life. At first it was believed to be miraculous, the result of a special creation. But as we learned more about how life actually works, we come to see that it can be explained as the result of natural processes. And thus not evidence of intelligent design.

      Of course, since intelligent life is a consequence of physical laws, anything life does can be consdered a natural process ...

      SteveM

      • The point remains: if you see the incredible, wonderful complication that is our DNA structure and say, "This is from a natural process", how in the name of tinker toys will you find a pattern in radio waves that is there by someone's design?

        Rejection of intelligence in the design of DNA sets the bar way too high.
    • We search for a pattern in radio signals to find proof of intelligence, yet we look at a strand of DNA and not see it.

      That's because we know that the 2-legged things the DNA produces are usually not that intelligent.

  • It's a cook book! (Score:5, Funny)

    by CodeWanker ( 534624 ) on Monday October 25, 2004 @12:39PM (#10621816) Journal
    Based on the French affinity for frogs, snails, and other unlikely looking edibles, they probably think of this as a chance to try out new recipes with our unfortunate alien contactees.
    • Of course! Now that the best wines come from Australia and California, the French need something on which to build their self-esteem.

      ("Perhaps a bit more butter on the arthropod, Francois! ")
    • The French are leading the charge with Corot in 2008. ...and leading the retreat if space Germans are found instead of space frogs.
  • I really wish that some of these vast quantities of capital would be invested the the Search for Asteroids.

    It would just be typically ironic for our SETA projects to be succesful just as we're decimated by an asteroid
    • Decimated wouldn't be a big deal, 9 out of 10 of us would survive. Annihilated, or completely destroyed would suck.

      Decimation was when the Romans would punish the troops for failure by lining them up, and killing every 10th soldier. Thus, decimating means "reducing by 1/10th".

      Now, excuse me, I'm off to correct other misuses of words. I just heard some guy down the hall say it's "ironic" that there's no more coffee filters. Now where did I leave that tire iron?

  • tall ship and a star to steer her by (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Doc Ruby ( 173196 ) on Monday October 25, 2004 @12:54PM (#10621962) Homepage Journal
    I wonder whether Europe will, upon discovering "life" across the big pond of space, send missionaries in their grand tradition of civilizing the heathens. Centauran coffee, anyone?

  • pfft (Score:2, Funny)

    by DeathByDuke ( 823199 )
    looks like we need tinfoil hats in europe now, theyre looking for intelligence, us!

  • More cover-up, waste of money... (Score:4, Informative)

    by eclectic4 ( 665330 ) on Monday October 25, 2004 @02:03PM (#10622665)
    See this [disclosureproject.org]. If "over 400 government, military, and intelligence community witnesses testifying to their direct, personal, first hand experience with UFOs, ETs, ET technology" isn't good enough for you, then start here [bvalphaserver.com] to research our gov's own documents, and then go here [nuforc.org] and dismiss these reports with "swamp gas" or "venus" or "a flock of birds". And lastly, read "UFOs and the National Security State" [amazon.com], one of the very best and most referenced book on the subject using our own gov's documents once again.

    This "we may contact other intelligent creatures someday" is a complete and utter farce.

  • I can't wait (Score:3, Funny)

    by StikyPad ( 445176 ) on Monday October 25, 2004 @02:03PM (#10622672) Homepage
    It's projects like these that make you realize a lifetime is too short. I can't wait to see the results of this project in several decades, I just wish I could be around to witness the results of the first manned missions to these planets. If we don't blow ourselves up first. It's great to see all these space-related stories being featured. Hopefully this renewed interest in space exploration will become infectious worldwide. I can only imagine what the world will be like for my kids.

    Oh wait.. I think I remember hearing something about getting laid being a requisite for producing offspring.. can anyone confirm this?

  • How many? (Score:3, Funny)

    by StikyPad ( 445176 ) on Monday October 25, 2004 @02:07PM (#10622719) Homepage
    a mission consisting of 10.000 3-metre mirror telescopes.

    I'm not sure what's more amazing - the fact that they've projected the number of telescopes they'll need out to 3 decimal places, or that it appears to be a perfect integer. Unless they rounded it off to the nearest thousandth.

    • Re:How many? (Score:3, Informative)

      by StikyPad ( 445176 )
      Yeah, I know, they use periods to deliniate thousands in some countries. I'm sure someone will call me a dumbass though. Hopefully.

  • But how would ET find us? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by targo ( 409974 ) <targo_t&hotmail,com> on Monday October 25, 2004 @04:30PM (#10624499) Homepage
    We have all these programs for trying to find patterns in signals from space but are we doing anything to make life easier for anyone that is trying to find us? Sure, we are emitting a bunch of electromagnetic radiation from our broadcasts but how far would it actually reach to be detectable? Wouldn't it be more efficient to send powerful laser pulses that are specifically targeted at "promising" nearby star systems?
    Is anybody in the world doing something like this?

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