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A Tapeless Digital Camcorder For Your Pocket
Posted by
timothy
on Tue Oct 19, 2004 02:21 AM
from the record-everything dept.
from the record-everything dept.
spullara writes "I've been waiting a long time for a small, tapeless, easy to use digital camcorder. Tapes wear out, they require playback in realtime, and make producing ad hoc movies time consuming. Without these types of recorders you can forget about iVideoPodcasting. I found the Fisher FVD-C1 at an Apple Store last week and it was amazing, but it turns out there is a better one being imported from Japan, the Xacti DMX-C4 thats nearly identical, but better. You can read my review of it here (I have no association with any of these businesses). Wouldn't it be great if one of these devices had WiMAX to upload directly to the internet?"
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before /.ers wake up (Score:5, Informative)
As you might have read, my wife and I are having our first baby. So, of course, we needed a video camera.
One of the biggest complaints I have with mini-DV cameras is that you copy the data off them at the same speed you put the data on them. This is a nightmare. Additionally, tapes are terribly inconvenient to search, store, carry, etc. I was down at the Apple Store in Palo Alto on Tuesday of last week and saw a new camcorder there, the Fisher FVD-C1. It was amazingly small but easy to hold, used solid state storage, and had pretty good specs. At the store it was $800, so I wandered over to one of the Macs they have setup there connected to the internet and searched to see what the real going rate was. As it turns out, it cost about the same from Amazon. Later I did some more research and found a little company in California that imports Japanese only products into the US that had another version of the camera direct from Sanyo (Fisher OEMs their product). In addition to being the same size it also had 4MP instead of 3MP, a 1.8in LCD instead of 1.5in, and some improved software. Even better, it didn't come bundled with only a 512M card, instead it was $600 and you could buy a high-speed 1G SD card from them for an extra $120 (you can get them a little cheaper elsewhere, but i wanted it all to come at the same time).
Everything about the camera screamed buy me, so I did. I chose their cheapest shipping option (they are definitely making a bit of profit on their prices) and ordered it and a 1G card on Tuesday night. It arrived on Thursday morning, way sooner than I expected. All the manuals are in Japanese, fortunately I don't read those. Amusingly, it also talked in Japanese until I figured out you could change it to English mode by navigating the helpful pictograms.
Hooking it up to my Mac was trivial, it comes with a USB dock / recharging station that you just connect to your computer. It has a button on it to switch it between being connected and charging. I'm not sure if it is recharging when it is connected or not. Because it is also a still camera, when you plug it in and connect it, iPhoto launches and allows you to import any photos. Immediately I realized that I would need an efficient way to handle all the clips that I would be generating and I am a little bummed that there is nothing like iClips that comes with the Mac. I have some ideas about how that would work, maybe I should put something together. Instead of making a full fledged application, I instead did some applescript to get it setup with a Folder Action. So now when I plug it in, it immediately finds all the movies, renames them from their generic names to timestamp names, copies them to my Movies directory, and then if there are no pictures it ejects the camera and quits iPhoto all in one smooth motion. In the end I want to build something that lets me drop any of the movies onto a drop site and immediately reencode them for the web and post them to my website for consumption by the ever vigilant grandparents of our daughter to be. Speaking of photos, it does a pretty good job at those as well. Not as good as my Elph, but good enough.
There is only one thing that tripped me up that I would like to mention about the camera. While transferring movies from it I found that it was much slower than USB 2.0 should be. As it turns out, although it is spec'd for USB 2.0, it is for "full" speed, not "high" speed. So you should see transfer rates just about 500K/s. It would be much better if it were faster than that as that can mean 2000 seconds for a full 1G SD. Its still way more convenient than tape. I blame the USB committee for allowing devices to be touted as USB 2.0 when, in fact, they are the same speed as USB 1.1.
The movie/picture demo on their Yahoo store is pretty accurate and reflects the quality of the MPEG4/AAC recording that I have gotten while using the camera.
Re:before /.ers wake up (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:before /.ers wake up (Score:5, Insightful)
This part makes me wonder why he complains about tape transfer speeds:
There is only one thing that tripped me up that I would like to mention about the camera. While transferring movies from it I found that it was much slower than USB 2.0 should be. As it turns out, although it is spec'd for USB 2.0, it is for "full" speed, not "high" speed. So you should see transfer rates just about 500K/s. It would be much better if it were faster than that as that can mean 2000 seconds for a full 1G SD. Its still way more convenient than tape. I blame the USB committee for allowing devices to be touted as USB 2.0 when, in fact, they are the same speed as USB 1.1.
Okay, so copying a DV tape @ 720p over firewire is slower than this? Not. This sort of defeats his key point in the beginning of the "review".
For $800 you can get an excellent DV camera with near-professional quality and will last for many years. I would suggest avoiding gadgets who's only reason for being on the market is the fact it uses SD ram instead of DV tape. Maybe in 2-5 years there will be real DV cameras with 100GB of storage on them, but now isn't the time.
Personally, I suspect the author only had experience with VHS tape and had never used DV tape as a medium. Otherwise, he wouldn't be saying USB 1.1 speeds are better than "dealing with a tape".
Parent
Costs not factored in? (Score:3, Insightful)
Agreed.
The review also talks of the being inconvient to store - good grief - if he's going to transfer them to the computer, why worry?
Secondly, if you're off on holiday and want to shoot a lot of video (and didn't want to lug a PC with you) then you'd still need a few flash cards - For the price of one 512Mb flash ram you could buy a bucket load of tapes. (shrug)
USB Naming/Packaging issues (Score:5, Informative)
The USB folk's naming and packaging recommendations [usb.org] actually discourage the use of "USB 2.0" since it is confusing as heck ... but I agree with the parent that they kinda created this monster by saying that there is a "Lo-speed" and "Full-speed" USB 2.0 that are the same speed as USB1.x ... so most consumers (myself included) see USB 2.0 and unless we look carefully for "Hi-Speed", then things aren't any faster than 1.x ... which is an issue for still photography and a BIG issue for video.
BTW, have we ever seen a first post that has been so informative - mod the parent to +10 - nice work roman mir
Parent
Re:USB Naming/Packaging issues (Score:4, Insightful)
But the point I am trying to make is that a slow USB2 device still allows you to use other USB2 devices (at max speed) on the same hub. Where a USB1.1 device will switch all devices connected to itself to the USB 1.1 mode, hence slowing down the entire chain.
That is a heck of a difference.
So the label "USB2.0" should be read as "will not slow down your usb chain". The speed at which the USB2 norm is implemented in the said device is another question altogether. That is part of the device, and should be accepted like that.
Parent
Damn... (Score:4, Informative)
1Gb of storage on SD? (Score:5, Interesting)
That's what i'll keep waiting for.
Re:1Gb of storage on SD? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:1Gb of storage on SD? (Score:3, Interesting)
JVC Everio with 4GB Microdrive. To be released any day now...
http://www.i4u.com/article2116.html [i4u.com]
Re:1Gb of storage on SD? (Score:2, Insightful)
Price, weight, durability, longevity, and upgradability?
Or Better Still (Score:2)
Granted the power consumption would be awsome, but there is room for a "Little" more weight here considering that the cam is toughted at the size of a cell phone.
Now when can I expect to be able to write my own code for this thing [neurosaudio.com]?
Re:1Gb of storage on SD? (Score:4, Interesting)
why can't they just put in a decent 20Gb harddrive (like the iPod)
What I'm waiting for is someone (maybe Apple, maybe not) to put out a widget for connecting an iSight [apple.com] to an iPod [apple.com]. For basic home movies of the kids, something that that should sell quite well if you could package it all together at $599 or so. At the higher end, why not a camcorder that simply used an iPod mini as a "cartridge". It's only 4GB currently, but their form factor makes them a really attractive option. If the regular iPod was good enough to handle LoTR, aren't a few iPod mini (is mini the plural of mini? :-) good enough to handle my budget productions?
Parent
No Thanks... (Score:3, Insightful)
Or I'm somewhere and the drive is full, and I want to keep recording. With a tape-based Camcorder I'd just run to (Costco/Walmart/7-11/Target) and pickup some more MiniDV tapes or whatever.
With this I have to upload the video onto another device...
And I have to worry about making sure to backup the device I download the camcorder's drive to. With tapes, while they are NOT indestructible, and they DO wear out eventually, and (with analog tapes) you can loose quality when you copy them, you don't have to worry about loosing all your recordings because the latest virus wipes your hard drives and you didn't have backups.
_MOST_ people are NOT going to be cluefull enough to make sure to backup their video from their hard drive to DVD or some other medium.
Re:No Thanks... (Score:2)
Clueful, no. But they'll want a copy on a DVD anyhow. Most people don't happen to enjoy watching videos on their computers, and the interface for finding and selecting DVDs is easier for most people than using a computer.
So it works out.
Re:No Thanks... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:No Thanks... (Score:2)
Re:No Thanks... (Score:4, Insightful)
Use the right tool for the job? Seriously, there are some things that Mini-DV is a pain in the ass for. Others, it's great for.
I'll give you a quick example: I have video taken from my cell phone (of all places) of my dog teasing my cat. The video quality is crummy and all, but it was at my side, and ready to go. I have that funny moment now. If I had run to my video camera, I would have had to check if the tape was ready to go, power the silly thing up, and hope the animals co-operate. Okay, this isn't apples and apples, but there's something to be said for tapeless devices.
They're not perfect. Niether is Mini-DV. That's why both are on the market. Lighten up.
Parent
Re:No Thanks... (Score:3, Interesting)
invent (or hack) an iPod-like-device to act as a portable hard disk for all these flash-RAM-hungry devices.
I've thought of it many times for my still camera. Unless I buy lots of (expensive) flash cards, or lug a laptop with me, I can only shoot as many photos as I have room for...as we all know and have dealt with for many years already.
What I need is a pocket-sized, battery-powered intermediate storage device. When my camera (or voice recorder or tapeless video cam) gets full, I cou
Re:No Thanks... (Score:5, Informative)
see steves-digicams [steves-digicams.com]
Scroll down to "Image Storage Devices" for reviews of a bunch of them.
See also the Belkin iPod Media Reader [apple.com] for a device that'll let you transfer all the major flash media formats to your iPod.
Parent
WiMax? (Score:2, Funny)
Yes, because my local electric car recharging station now has a WiMax hotspot...
Mirrors (Score:3, Informative)
Coral Cache link [nyud.net]
Mirror Dot link [mirrordot.com]
Mini-DVD Digicorders are tapeless too (Score:3, Interesting)
Points in article. (Score:2, Interesting)
And hard drives work perfectly, forever? At least you can easily swap tapes, they are fairly cheap, and most importantly, they handle shocks pretty well.
Tape-based digital camcorders can do better than realtime playback.
I don't believe it's merely the camcorder that makes producing movies time-consuming!
GOD NO! I
Re:Points in article. (Score:2)
wimax? (Score:5, Insightful)
Wouldn't it be better if it had 802.11a/b/g so you could actually use it in the near future?
Samples (Score:5, Interesting)
I also have a question:
It got 5.8 times optical zoom and 10 times digital zoom. In video mode the camera only uses 0.3 MP of the available 4 MP (probably a bit more for the image stabilizer?). Anyways, when using digital zoom in video mode, will it simply use the remainder of the MP to do the digital zoom and thus provide a "loss free" digital zoom? Or is it similar to image shooting using digital zoom, where the resulting picture is blurred?
Re:Samples (Score:5, Informative)
4.35mb sample [64.60.113.123]
Thats assuming it still works by the time you see my reply (and it hasnt been slashdotted)
Parent
Re:Samples (Score:3, Interesting)
But what I'm looking for are examples showing the strengths and weaknesses of this camera. Show me the full range of optical and digital zoom and how the picture gets worse with the digital zoom. Show me a movie in low light or artificial light conditions.
This is the first "review" of this camera which I have encountered and I have
Re:Samples (Score:2)
The problem is not that the picture gets more blurry really..although it may look like that. When a picture of say 0.4 MP is enlarged to 2MP or similar..the processor has to intelligently 'guess' on what colour pixel should be between the pixels it already has information for. The information just isnt there.
Re:Samples (Score:2)
Fisher Price (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Fisher Price (Score:2)
BTW... You are a freak if you like the IT colour scheme!
Re:Fisher Price (Score:2, Interesting)
They actually used footage from some of these in some movies:
Slacker [imdb.com] (1991)
Naja [imdb.com] (1997)
Links:
The Pixelvision Home Page [rowan.edu]
Pixelvision (includes tecnical details) [michaeloreilly.com]
Re:Fisher Price (Score:3, Interesting)
That's what was so amazing about the Pixlvision - that it would even make it all the way to market and actually work.
What I loved about it is how it used a standard audio tape at high speed to produce 5 minutes of video.
Quite strange (but cool) when you think about it.
Sounds like a neat camcorder, But... (Score:4, Insightful)
I think that we should actually blame the company, who is putting labels on their product which overstate the technology. Compliance laboratories are worked pretty hard to my knowledge, and it becomes increasingly difficult to weed out products which poorly meet the specifications. I want to support a company which produces high grade equipment, not one who works just hard enough for the selling point.
The Pro version -- Professional Disc -- XDCam (Score:4, Informative)
Sony already had support for XDCam from AVID [sony.com.hk] at the National Association of Broadcasters converntion in Las Vegas in April, one of the big names in Non-Linear (computer-based) video editing systems (NLEs).
Sony plans to make computer drives able to read and write XDCAM discs, allowing Non-Linear Editing without re-capturing.
Links:
XDCam FAQs (pdf) [sony.com]
MPEG-IMX White Paper [v2] (pdf) [sony.com]
for best quality.... (Score:2, Informative)
There is one samekind of cam, but cheaper (Score:4, Informative)
I had one of those, it was really nice, i'd like better light sensitivity, but you can't get everything.
It had quite good image quality, one socket for SD card, battery, in-build recharger etc. Night mode and other juicy features.
It costed around 380-420euros here when i got one, altho i didn't pay that much.
It was really great for the price, and with 512mb sd card you can shoot over 2hours of video. encodes also MPEG4/AAC.
Only thing is: those vids didn't play in BSPlayer, on WMP they played nicely altho, after installing the WMV codecs which came on the CD. Didn't try other players.
ivideopodcasting? (Score:5, Funny)
Not something I would buy ... (Score:5, Insightful)
While MPEG4 may be a nice format to store finished video in, it is not a good idea to use it as a storage format:
DV has a resolution of 720x480 (NTSC) or 720x576 (PAL). I'm not even sure if 640x480 is a standard DVD format (720x480/720x576 is); if not, this means recoding to different pixel size for DVD, which means quality loss independent of the encoding itself
Ok, this point might see some disagreement, but I consider it quite unfortunate that the trend goes away from FW to USB2.
This is what I bought (Score:2)
Just thought I wanted to show you an alternative. I have no stocks in Sony (wish I did though
Tape too slow? No! (Score:4, Funny)
Resolution (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes there are two HDTV-MiniDV cameras out now (JVC and Sony), but the JVC has a bad contrast range while the Sony has no real 24p recording (or even 25p would fill the bill).
When will somebody finally release a HDTV 1920x1080 camera with 24p below $3000? Or is there a way to fool these tapeless camcorder thingies in recording in a higher resolution?
Um... your wife? (Score:4, Informative)
Er... here in Europe we call that "my phone" [nokia.com].
Seriously, though... you guys don't have digital flash-memory video cameras on your cellphones? WTF? Digital still cameras have been standard on cellphones for the last two years, video and flash memory last year. I don't want to start a "diss the yanks" thread, I realise there are plenty of things y'all do better, but... you chaps need to have some serious words with your cellular providers, you're not getting good handset upgrades.
My phone has digital video camera and an MMC card offering up to 1GB of storage. The phone came free with 100 minutes of calls on a monthly £25 (US$50) contract, albeit only with a 32mb MMC card, then I purchased a larger MMC seperately for thirty quid. My missus got one too, free with contract again, here's footage she shot of squirrels in the churchyard [livejournal.com].
I didn't even need to change contracts. I just rang them up and said I'd quit my contract after a year unless they upgraded my handset to a video model. It was delivered next day.
Direct upload (Score:3, Funny)
No, it would not. Why would you want to make anyone sit through your hours of uneditted footage?
If only owners of video cameras (and those uploading _all_ their digital photos to an online gallery) learned to edit what they capture before submitting it to their friends the world would be a lot less violent place...
Re:Direct upload (Score:3, Funny)
When tape video cameras first emerged at reasonable prices, wedding photographers were interested but worried that their profit margin would be eroded by the editing cost of getting 3 hours of footage down to the 10 mins that a third party would actually watch. But they soon discovered that Joe Public is so uncritical of seeing his own picture that he actually wanted the unedited 3 hours. Existing video cameras are basically weapons of mass boredom, and on bad days I think that a license should
Why not CompactFlash? hard disk? (Score:3, Insightful)
And where are the hard disk cameras? Or should I say, AFFORDABLE hard disk based cameras?
What About Archiving?? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:FUCK YOU TIMOTHY (Score:2, Funny)
Nice one, dipshit [slashdot.org].