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Writing Software for Worldwide Distribution Proves Difficult
Posted by
michael
on Thu Aug 19, 2004 09:36 AM
from the least-common-denominator dept.
from the least-common-denominator dept.
lupa1420 writes "Insensitive computer programmers with little knowledge of geography have cost the giant Microsoft company hundreds of millions of dollars in lost business and led hapless company employees to be arrested by offended governments."
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Specific Ocean? (Score:5, Funny)
The annual National Geographic Survey had thrown up the sad fact that only 23 out of 56 young Americans knew the whereabouts of the Pacific Ocean
Oh, cry me a river--like the Pacific Ocean is some big, important thing. I mean, you need to drive all the way to Sweden just to see it!
Re:Specific Ocean? (Score:5, Funny)
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Of course not! (Score:5, Funny)
.
[/sarcasm]
Re: the grandparent post, that quote from the article got me too. I was wondering if they were showing an upside down map or something...
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Re:Of course not! (Score:5, Interesting)
Whenever I come across a globe that can be fully flipped upside down, I do so. It gives an interesting perspective on the world, especially considering "up" was chosen fairly arbitrarily...
(Yes, I know, "up" was chosen because that's where North is, but try to remember the whole polar reversal thing that happens from time to time)
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Re:Of course not! (Score:5, Interesting)
But let's say further that you were a globe-maker from the 1800s. Since we have gravity, hence mounts, and simple mounts at that, then your globes had to have a set orientation when placed in a room. Which way up would you have chosen? Yes, that's right, North
One thing which mystifies me is why the spin axis was chosen to be vertical. If the axis were horizontal, the light used in illuminating rooms would fall on the globe as the sun's rays do
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Re:Of course not! (Score:5, Interesting)
Funny you should say "orientation"
Early European maps had EAST at the top
Ever hear of "orienting" a map?
Point the way in front of you towards your destination (the orient)
(Of course on the way back I guess you had an "occident")
--MAB
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Re:Of course not! (Score:5, Insightful)
What light source? The electric bulb in your ceiling or the candle on your table?
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Re:Of course not! (Score:5, Interesting)
North was also a common choice since the north star was a major navigational point and the only still part in the heavens. In many esoteric understandings the north star was the peak of the cosmic mountain where the Gods dwell. Refer to Isaiah's refereces to "Har Tzafon" or the mountain of the north. Since about 3/4 of the dry land on earth is north of the equator, particularly those areas that developed advanced cultures early, this was also a common model in many cultures.
In every ancient culture maps were designed around spiritual, navigational and astronomical conciderations not on lighting.
As much as slashdotters like to dismiss religon they should really learn to recognize its place in developing almost every aspect of our culture rather than thinking that people of the ancient world centered their lives on which way the light would look best.
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Re:Of course not! (Score:5, Informative)
I'm going to be a git and spoil this one; click here [snopes.com] to see an analysis of this urban legend.
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Re:Of course not! (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Of course not! (Score:5, Insightful)
So what country are you in? I'm in the US, where most of the citizens wouldn't recognize a Latin mass. The largest single religious group is Catholics, and most of them wouldn't even recognize the Latin words to the mass.
There's an old joke in the US, that if English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me.
(Part of the joke is that most religious Americans wouldn't understand that it's a joke.)
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Re:Of course not! (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not sure this is an apt comparison. I think that the offense came from the fact that the prayer music was part of a profane and violent fighting game. I would be offended too (and I'm not Christian) if Christian religious chanting were used as background music for such a game. Its simply disrespectful to the sentiments involved.
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Re:Specific Ocean? (Score:5, Insightful)
So while that's not as extreme as not knowing where the Pacific Ocean is... Americans aren't the only geographically-challenged people out there.
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Re:Specific Ocean? (Score:5, Insightful)
There's only two oceans that lap up against US shores
Beyond that
Most Euro countries aren't 3000 x 1500 miles in size, made up of 48 separate states. Can you point out something other than London on a map of England? It's only the size of VA.
- Roach
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Re:Specific Ocean? (Score:5, Insightful)
No
Beyond that, what incentive would someone in Germany have to know where Ohio is? Being from Ohio, I can state with some authority that there is little, if any.
Unless you have a specific reason for knowing
But I sure as hell know where all 50 states are, and the major bodies of water in my own country.
- Roach
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Re:Specific Ocean? (Score:5, Insightful)
Most people in France for instance, probably have no idea their country is only slightly larger than Texas, or that Alaska alone is larger than most of Western Europe.
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Apples and Oranges (Score:5, Insightful)
You are comparing ignorance of regional districts *within* a country (states) to ignorance of major world countries as a whole.
Europeans not knowing where Florida is is a totally different thing to Americans not knowing where Sweeden is. One os a district, the other is a country.
If you think Europeans should know where Florida is, then that means that Americans should know where South Wales is in the UK. Good luck on *that*.
It is pretty much accepted knowledge worldwide that the vast majority of the US population has little concern with anything beyond its own borders. Just watch your average american 6'oclock newscast and count the international references. Compared to other countries' newscasts it should be embarassing.
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Re:Specific Ocean? (Score:5, Funny)
A worldwide survey was conducted by the UN. The only question asked was:"Would you please give your honest opinion about solutions to the food shortage in the rest of the world?"
The survey was a huge failure...
In Africa they didn't know what "food" meant
In Eastern Europe they didn't know what "honest" meant.
In Western Europe they didn't know what "shortage" meant
In China they didn't know what "opinion" meant.
In the Middle East they didn't know what "solution" meant.
In South America they didn't know what "please" meant.
And in the USA they didn't know what "the rest of the world" meant
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Re:Specific Ocean? (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Specific Ocean? (Score:5, Funny)
So you've got your hands held up in front of you to illustrate geographical locations. Maybe they were trying to poke you in the eye for being such a weirdo.
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New Mexico USA (Score:5, Interesting)
Just imagine if someone invaded New Mexico and 25% of America were upset that we were sending troops there.
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ob simpsons (Score:5, Funny)
Most of these aren't geographic errors... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Most of these aren't geographic errors... (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, one of the major errors - the inclusion of a chant of verses from the Koran in Kakuto Chojin - was made by Japanese developers.
The article illustrates the value, more than anything, of hiring consultants for each and every country into which you intend to market a product.
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Lame article (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Lame article (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah, who cares about little piss-ant countries like Pakistan. Call me back when they have nukes...
*RRRINNNGGGG*
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Re:Lame article (Score:5, Insightful)
No, the reasonable thing to do would have been to develop different versions of the software for each country where it is sold, so that in Windows India Edition the Kashmir region is displayed as part of India, while in Windows Pakistan Edition the Kashmir region is displayed as part of Pakistan.
Microsoft appears to be trying to sell Windows as a global product, but there is no globally-accepted geography that can be used in it. Some degree of localization is necessary.
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Oh come on (Score:5, Insightful)
Americans may have a poor understanding of Geography, but I don't really see that being an issue in this case. All Microsoft could have done is more thoroughly research the area.
Other items which caused offence (Score:5, Funny)
Several Arab countries resented being called either "Oil" or "Just terrorists".
Several former Soviet Bloc and Warsaw Pact countries objected to the name of their countries being followed by "(or whatever they are calling themselves this week)."
Not Just MS (Score:5, Insightful)
Geography? (Score:5, Insightful)
If you read the article, you'll see the computer programmer's problems have nothing to do with geography... and everything to do with understanding and respecting differences in the cultures that may purchase MSFT products. I think showing the programmers where the Pacific Ocean is isn't going to do very much to make the software more culturally acceptable.
Not too sure about this.... (Score:5, Insightful)
After reading this article... (Score:5, Insightful)
Usually, I'm an american that makes every effort to be understanding of cultures different than my own, and to try to understand why it is that the US is frowned upon by other cultures. We have a foreign exchange intern here from Europe right now, and we've had long conversations about why and how americans take their relative wealth for granted (even our citizens on welfare tend to be wealthier than many in smaller european countries!)
But this...this isn't a lack of sensitivity on Microsoft's part. It's a lack of toleration on the part of other cultures. Knowing full-well that this software was written by programmers of another culture, there should be a degree of toleration and patience that goes along with the process. Make the developer aware of the issue and give them a chance to fix it.
Honestly, if someone in another culture (India perhaps?) that wasn't sufficiently versed in US geography made a map that, oh...I don't know, put St. Louis in Illinois rather than Missouri, or show the Arch crossing the Mississippi River or something equally stupid, I suppose some might be offended (I can think of other, more controversial examples...), but more than likely we'd give them the chance to fix it first.
Americans may be stuck up, take a WHOLE lot of freedoms for granted, have lots of money, and think too highly of themselves at times to bother learning about other cultures, but I'll give you one thing:
Even some of the most annoying pricks I know seem to be more tolerant than some other cultures are to the average Joe. How pathetic is that?
It's to be expected... (Score:5, Insightful)
This sounds much more like a "lets point out all the funny fuckups from M$" article, and much less a diatribe on the difficulties of writing international software. Yes, they've made a few mistakes, and the occasional horrid judgement call (I mean, really, insulting all of Islam? Well, at least now we know better...). But some things, like the evil spanish word, referring to breakaway states as countries in their own right, or other such silliness, are just an "oops", where you wouldn't expect them to rightfully know better.
On that note though, what's up with the rabid nations emasculating anyone who dares suggest that Kashmir or Taiwan are separate countries? I generally find foreign media less crazy than US, but try reading an article from a chinese newspaper on taiwan sometime... it's almost frighteningly evangelical in it's belief.
And, finally... come on, AoE2? I thought the muslims replacing the churches was a cute touch, not insulting... I mean, it's a game, you have to change the game elements to fit the theme of whoever is winning... and you wouldn't expect westerners to know the details of how the muslims handled conquered peoples and their religion during the crusades...
Oh that's great! (Score:5, Funny)
*cough*hagia sophia*cough*
And what about slashdot? (Score:5, Funny)
I will not stop until the color changes!
Negative Article (Score:5, Informative)
Notice that the fix for these problems wasn't to fix the map in windows, but to remove it entirely. That shows that it wasn't an "error in geography" on MS's part but that you can't get 2 governments to agree on geography and Microsoft was stuck in the middle.
Axe to grind? (Score:5, Insightful)
1, Not knowing where Jammu-Kashmir is, exactly, and not knowing that Indian law prohibits considering it part of anything but India. (Never mind that the law has its own counterpart in Pakistan; you can't avoid breaking the law on this one.)
2, In a similar vein, having to offend Kurds so as not to offend the Turks with regard to the depiction of Kurdistan.
3, Offending the Saudis by showing churches turned into mosques by invading Muslim armies...never mind that the exact opposite happens when a Christian army takes over a mosque in the game.
4, Didn't know that "woman" in one dialect of Spanish means "bitch" in another.
None of these things seem to me to be so hard to imagine. Do Nicaraguans know that the word "cracker" can be used as a racist term here? Do Indians know that the Argentines go completely apeshit when you refer to the Faulkand Islands as such, rather than by their preferred name for them? And his assertion that Microsoft leaves their employees facing arrest in other countries seems baseless; he didn't mention a single instance. The worst he came up with was "questioned," and that was for calling Taiwan by it's real name. It's not Microsoft's fault that China has a wild hair up their ass over that one, either.
Straight from the horses' mouth (Score:5, Informative)
The time zone map met a similar fate. The Indian government threatened to ban all Microsoft software from the country because we assigned a disputed region to Pakistan in the time zone map. (Any map that depicts an unfavorable border must bear a government stamp warning the end-user that the borders are incorrect. You can't stamp software.) We had to make a special version of Windows 95 for them.
Geopolitics is a very sensitive subject.
Churches to Mosques? (Score:5, Informative)
"A game called Age of Empires 2 offended the Saudi Arabian authorities because it showed victorious Muslim armies turning churches into mosques. The game was withdrawn from sale in the kingdom."
Just as a minor, semi-offtopic comment: Um, wasn't that precisely what happened to the Hagia Sofia? You can still see the faint traces of the crosses that were removed when the whole thing was turned into a Mosque. So even if turning churches into mosques wasn't normal practice, it did happen. To quote from a website about the Hagia Sophia [patriarchate.org]:
"On Tuesday, May 29, 1453, Sultan Mehmet the Conqueror entered the vanquished city late in the afternoon and rode to Hagia Sophia. He was amazed at its beauty and decided to convert the Cathedral into his imperial mosque."
(Disclaimer: No, I'm not trying to be inflammatory about religion, I'm just making a historical point.)
fall forever, Pacific Ocean where? (Score:5, Insightful)
A game called Age of Empires 2 offended the Saudi Arabian authorities because it showed victorious Muslim armies turning churches into mosques. The game was withdrawn from sale in the kingdom
I've been to some mosques that were converted from churches after wars. I even have pictures [comcast.net]. This happened. I could understand how some Christians could get a little miffed. Could someone explain how it is offensive to Muslims?
Also, the geography "mistakes" in the article appear to be more policitical in nature than some developer not knowing where the Pacific Ocean is. Would I expect some developer in China to know about the controverial border between Michigan and Ohio that led to the Toldeo (Ohio) War? [michigan.gov]
Missing the point (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:not exclusive (Score:5, Funny)
I hope not. Especially since Seattle is essentially on the Pacific Ocean.!
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Re:Insular US (Score:5, Insightful)
And because it has been widely speculated that they are more responsive to advertising than any other demographic, the networks are probably catering to them.
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Re:Insular US (Score:5, Funny)
Yes and one of them is your President!
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Re:Insular US (Score:5, Funny)
"To the C students, I say, 'You too can be president of the United States.'" - George W. Bush, 2001
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Why would studying C lead you to politics? (Score:5, Funny)
All those pointers and 0 based arithmetic. I swear if I ever have to write another link-list routine, I'll go postal.
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Re:TFA makes little sense (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:obligatory simpson quote. (Score:5, Interesting)
in true slashdot bashing style. Haha!
i kinda wonder if linux offends accidentally or not tho.
Actually, the well-known Debian developer Herbert Xu resigned [debian.org] recently due to being offended [debian.org] by project members discussing (in the context of the new Debian installer) whether or not to refer to Taiwan as "Taiwan, Province of China" as it is officially designated in ISO 3166. [iso.org]
So this sort of problem is certainly not restricted to commercial or proprietary software.
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Re:Master / Slave HDD (Score:5, Insightful)
When I hear the word "Slave" the first thing that comes to mind is white women with blonde hair and big tits dressed up in leather that doesn't cover any of their goodies and strapped to a cross or something.
Primary is the first IDE bus, and Secondary is the second one. You'd have Primary Primary, Primary Secondary, Secondary Primary, and Secondary Secondary. You don't think that would be confusing? I thought this was news for nerds.
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