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Debian Linux Business

Progeny Releases Beta 1 of Progeny Debian 2.0 77

Posted by michael from the like-debian-but-better-i-hope dept.
Jeff Licquia writes "We just released the first beta of Progeny Debian 2.0, Developer Edition. This is intended to be a showcase of our Componentized Linux project for building customized Linux distributions, something that's been talked about here before. We'd really like people to give this a whirl and report any problems they have. For more information, Progeny's Platform site has the details."
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Progeny Releases Beta 1 of Progeny Debian 2.0 More

Progeny Releases Beta 1 of Progeny Debian 2.0

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  • "What's it all about, then?" post (Score:5, Interesting)

    by ZiZ ( 564727 ) * on Tuesday July 13, 2004 @06:02PM (#9691348) Homepage
    There don't seem to be any torrents or mirrors for this stuff, alas.

    Some useful information from the site regarding what this Componentized Linux is:

    http://platform.progeny.com/archives/000011.html
    Toward a new kind of "Linux distribution"

    There's no denying that "Linux distributions" have played a central role--arguably the central role--in the evolution of Linux from hobby project to mainstream technology.

    However, even as Slackware, Red Hat, and other distributions became "Linux" to millions of users, one inescapable fact remained: that unlike their proprietary OS cousins, which contain technologies developed (or licensed) by a single organization to fit into a single, integrated product, Linux distributions are merely convenient packaging around a loosely knit collection of thousands of independently developed technologies.

    Even today, Linux distributions continue to be developed from the top down as monolithic wholes, as opposed to bottom up as collections of piece-parts, a model that would be a much better fit with the nature of every distribution's (common!) constituent elements. Even newer distributions built by seasoned veterans have tended to follow the top-down model (and, I would argue, to their detriment)--I'm thinking here of Red Hat's Fedora (which, although called "Fedora Core", hardly seems a "core" at all, weighing in at 3 CDs) and Bruce Perens' UserLinux (which appears mired in endless discussions about which technologies should be included and which shouldn't, with predictable results).

    For the commercial Linux-as-product distributors, it is a sensible strategy to portray their distributions as monolithic wholes, as this allows them to position the distributions as platforms unto themselves and, thus, pursue traditional OS business models based on locking users in to a platform (I've argued before this will be a losing strategy in the long run, but that's another topic).

    However, for those who view Linux not as a product but as a platform on which to build their own products, the monolithic nature of the typical distribution is a particularly bad fit. The typical Linux-as-product distribution optimizes for breadth--because it is "one-size-fits-all", it needs to include a huge assortment of features and technologies to satisfy the widest possible audience, only a few of which may be important to any given project (and the few that are important will always vary). Ideally, for Linux-as-platform users, a distribution should optimize for depth, i.e., to excel in those few features and technologies important to the project at hand.

    To allow optimization for depth, a new kind of distribution is needed--a componentized distribution from which users may build platforms from the bottom up, including only the features and technologies their products require. Progeny is building such a distribution, which we call (cleverly enough) componentized Linux. Furthermore, we are building it in the open as a community project in the hopes that others will be intrigued with the concept, collaborate with us on the component infrastructure and underlying open-source technologies (Anaconda, APT, etc.) and ultimately build their own components too.

    If this sounds a lot like Debian, that's because it is in many ways: the end result is more of a collection of software than a distribution, and we hope the open development process ends up fostering the same kind of inextricable developer community that has sprung up around Debian. Importantly, the componentized Linux is a layer above an existing distribution--or, more properly, above an existing collection of packages. Our components are currently based on Debian sarge, and we are planning to support Fedora-based components as well in time. Our LSB 1.3-certified core runtime is available today. More components and a component-aware, Anaconda-based installation mechanism will be added in the coming weeks.
    Posted by Ian Murdock | Permalink | 2004-01-26 16:10:00

    And the release
    • There don't seem to be any torrents or mirrors for this stuff, alas.

      The Progney folks are sitting on a giant pipe. I doubt you'll be able to floor them.
    • unlike their proprietary OS cousins, which contain technologies developed (or licensed) by a single organization to fit into a single, integrated product, Linux distributions are merely convenient packaging around a loosely knit collection of thousands of independently developed technologies.

      So proprietary systems are developed from a "top down" model, while linux systems are developed by a "bottom up" model?

      But the next paragraph says:

      Linux distributions continue to be developed from the top down as m

  • Set up torrent (Score:5, Insightful)

    by slashdevslashtty ( 712925 ) <slashdevslashtty@yahoo.com> on Tuesday July 13, 2004 @06:04PM (#9691376)
    Whoever gets this downloaded should set up a torrent and submit it to suprnova.org

    • Re:Set up torrent (Score:1, Informative)

      by armitage_23 ( 168577 )
      I'm setting one up right now. I'm the only seed, and I've only got 384 upstream, but it's better than nothing.

      Check it out here [demonoid.com] or just grab the torrent file here [demonoid.com].

  • Sounds interesting... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by angst7 ( 62954 ) on Tuesday July 13, 2004 @06:05PM (#9691379) Homepage
    To allow optimization for depth, a new kind of distribution is needed--a componentized distribution from which users may build platforms from the bottom up, including only the features and technologies their products require.

    But isnt this one of the key ideas behind Gentoo? Either way I think I'll have to check this out more. Good to see more of this over the "just bundle everything with an i386 build" approach.

    • Re:Sounds interesting... (Score:4, Informative)

      by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <drink@hyperlogos.org> on Tuesday July 13, 2004 @06:28PM (#9691574) Homepage Journal

      That's exactly what gentoo gives you, and something that cannot be achieved without building from source given the current model of Unix software development - to keep things as simple as possible. In order to support assorted features without building from source, your software would have to be entirely modular and componentized. For example, you can add new functionality onto perl or apache without rebuilding the core software, because they both have a plugin architecture through the use of dynamic loading.

      In other words, the operating system that does this is already here, and it's called gentoo linux.

      It's worth mentioning that you could use gentoo as the base for creating your own linux distributions, by changing the bootstrap script, including the system's definition of what is built not only during the bootstrap process, but also during the initial "emerge system". Once you have the files, you can just zap them all up into a tarball, or package them in some other way. You can install (and maintain!) the core of the system using portage, through some other tool if you don't like its interface, and use some other package format and an independent collection of libraries and install everything else from packages if you wanted. So gentoo also (to my mind) provides you the modular distribution creation kit as well.

  • ARM port? MIPS? PPC? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by torpor ( 458 ) <ibisum AT gmail DOT com> on Tuesday July 13, 2004 @06:05PM (#9691384) Homepage Journal
    Haven't gotten through the article yet, but does this concept of modularized linux distro's include the notion of doing it across any kernel-supported arch?

  • Can i... (Score:1, Redundant)

    by c0ldfusi0n ( 736058 )
    apt-get it?

    • Re:Can i... (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      yes:

      http://platform.progeny.com/apt/index.html

  • No torrent?? (Score:5, Informative)

    by Rupan ( 723469 ) on Tuesday July 13, 2004 @06:07PM (#9691401) Homepage
    Someone mentioned that there is no torrent or download link. A very cursory examination of their website reveals an HTTP download location:

    http://archive.progeny.com/progeny/linux/iso-i38 6/ 20040710/

    Come one people, RTFA.
    • Someone mentioned that there is no torrent or download link. A very cursory examination of their website reveals an HTTP download location:

      Yup. One single HTTP download location, with no torrent or mirrors.

    • Actually, they said no mirrors.

      I'm getting 248 KB/sec on each of the two install ISOs at the moment. I'm waiting for it to drop to a crawl...

    • "There don't seem to be any torrents or mirrors for this stuff, alas." " Someone mentioned that there is no torrent or download link." They said mirrors. Which would balance the load..

    • Re:No torrent?? (Score:3, Informative)

      by elcugo ( 768861 )

      Actually, if you scroll down a bit you can find the mirrors here [progeny.com].

  • forty rabid /.ers all claiming that this redundant in a world that contains Gentoo ...

  • dazed (Score:3, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 13, 2004 @06:14PM (#9691454)
    "Fedora Core 3 Test 1 Released" goes in the developers section, but "Progeny Releases Beta 1 of Progeny Debian" a "developers edition" doesn't show up there. I really have to stop trying to understand /.

  • Language mangulation (Score:5, Funny)

    by Wolfbone ( 668810 ) on Tuesday July 13, 2004 @06:21PM (#9691515)
    "Componentized"??? - IMHO that's an anglobstipation excessively gratuitous even for you transatlanticated verbalizators. '-)

  • Docs? (Score:2, Redundant)

    by Z4rd0Z ( 211373 )
    It doesn't appear they have any useful documentation on their site, only market speak.

  • Customized Mini-Distros (Score:4, Interesting)

    by diagnosis ( 38691 ) on Tuesday July 13, 2004 @06:37PM (#9691639) Homepage
    Now if only there's a straightforward way to share your customized distro with other people; as in, I make a distro that runs on some embedded processor, say a 486 clone, that a ton of people use. Is there an easy way for me to simply share my configuration with other people in the same community?

    It seems like if this is done right, you could create automagically updating distrubtions easily enough that 'customer bases' even in the 100s or 1000s can simply support themselves.

    ----------------
    Freedom or Evil: www.freevil.net [freevil.net]
    GWB says, "You decide!"
    • Probably the easiest way would be to order up a batch of business card CDs. Not sure what to put on the title though. Software engineer is misleading since you're unlikely to actually be a liscenced engineer, software developer reeks of overpaid talent, and anything creative like Solution Creator tags you as incompetant. As does misspelling that word =/

  • ian murdock (Score:5, Informative)

    by Chalex ( 71702 ) on Tuesday July 13, 2004 @06:37PM (#9691646) Homepage
    The first thing that ran through my mind is "I remember that name from somewhere..." That's right, it's the Ian Murdock of Debian. Give the guy some credit before you bash his vision of the near future.

    OTOH, here's an article from 4 years ago [debianplanet.org] about Progeny. It looks like the vision was the same then, but they haven't gotten very far.

    • Re:ian murdock (Score:4, Funny)

      by MrNemesis ( 587188 ) on Tuesday July 13, 2004 @07:51PM (#9692172) Homepage Journal

      It looks like the vision was the same then, but they haven't gotten very far.

      Look, this is Debian. They don't release things until you have to fire rockets at the thing to stop it working ;)

      (Disclaimer - complete Debian fanboy, as I've never had woody go wrong on me once, YMMV :^)

  • sounds exciting! (Score:3, Interesting)

    by trogodors ( 796674 ) on Tuesday July 13, 2004 @06:50PM (#9691722)
    This could be useful for Universities or companies wanting to manage their own customized distributions. I know my lab would certainly appreciate the ability to customize our linux installations heavily and make those customizations manageable across several machines.

    This could also be handy for groups wanting to build custom hardware solutions.

  • Components vs Metapackages (Score:4, Interesting)

    by krmt ( 91422 ) <therefrmhere@yah o o . com> on Tuesday July 13, 2004 @06:53PM (#9691751) Homepage
    How do the Progeny components differ from the standard Debian metapackages?

    • Re:Components vs Metapackages (Score:4, Informative)

      by zerblat ( 785 ) <jonas@sk[ ]c.se ['ubi' in gap]> on Wednesday July 14, 2004 @01:30AM (#9694196) Homepage
      I believe the main difference is that components are more independent of each other. Instead of having to create a release of all the gazillion packages in the distribution simultaniously, each component can be released (more or less) independently.

      Read these [debian.org] two [progeny.com] mailing-list postings from Ian explaining it somewhat more. But really, the Progeny guys have been really bad at actually explaining exactly what "Componentized Linux" is all about. Even though it sounds cool.

  • On the one hand, I agree with the sentiment. The Linux we run is built from source, with only what we want installed. You might call this a "hardened Linux," tho I laugh when I hear about hardened Linux distributions. "Hardened distribution" is oxymoron: you can't really have both hardened (trimmed to the bone to do a specialized task) and a distribution (useful to large numbers of users).

    On the other hand, I think LSB really misses the target. Early versions required X11 to be installed! LSB 2.0 spec

  • The platform.progeny site just mentions an alpha 1 release, that's been out for a while.

    Is there a newer release out?
  • Last i heard they gave up and took their toys back home...When did they return?
  • Are they back in the business of making Linux distributions? I thought that Progeny 1.0 was going to be their first and the last release.
  • Is this componentized packages similar to apples approach to installing application on there os? i.e all the components for the application to work in Mac OS x is all contained in a folder like executable? Is my understanding correct? Garrett
  • On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:24:58 -0500, Jeff Licquia wrote: > On Wed, 2004-07-14 at 11:09, Shimon wrote: > > i have ask on slashdot, look your site inside out... i dont see any > > where, where it says the list of apps. > > Sorry about that. We will look into posting a component list. In the > meantime, you can get a list of components here: > > http://archive.progeny.com/progeny/linux/debian/d i sts/cl/ > > Some of those components may not be on the CD, however; we're sti

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