Mario Monti Fines Microsoft 100 Million? 335
n3k5 writes "EU competition commissioner Mario Monti has been in the news a lot lately, following "[...] a preliminary decision that Microsoft is breaking European law by abusing its dominant position in the personal computers' market. However, [the Commission] needs to carry out a series of consultations before finalising its verdict, due by May 1." (Financial Times article) The latest articles all cite German magazine FOCUS, which reports in its current issue that, according to "informed" EU sources, the Commission is considering imposing a record fine of EUR 100,000,000 (USD 123,840,000) on Microsoft. "Amelia Torries, a spokeswoman for Monti, dismissed the report as 'pure and utter speculation.'" (Channel NewsAsia article)"
I, for one,... (Score:3, Funny)
That's, what, about 1% of MS's cash reserves? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:That's, what, about 1% of MS's cash reserves? (Score:5, Informative)
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
The real effect (Score:5, Insightful)
If it signals an end to them, MS's stock price will likely benefit.
The opposite, actually (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:That's, what, about 1% of MS's cash reserves? (Score:3, Funny)
Less than 1% (Score:2, Informative)
100Me would be ~10% of 1B$
100Me would be ~1% of 10B$
Microsoft's cash reserves have been reported in the 40B$ ballpark, which is probably still conservative. This puts the fine in the ~0.25% of cash reserves ballpark.
"Oh, did someone slap my wrist? I hadn't noticed."
Re:That's, what, about 1% of MS's cash reserves? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:That's, what, about 1% of MS's cash reserves? (Score:2)
Re:That's, what, about 1% of MS's cash reserves? (Score:2)
This is just the beginning of the end for Microsoft. Rome is falling. I do wonder if they can actually inovate anything...
Re:That's, what, about 1% of MS's cash reserves? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:That's, what, about 1% of MS's cash reserves? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:That's, what, about 1% of MS's cash reserves? (Score:5, Informative)
No, we call '100,000,000' one hundred million. We call '1,000,000,000' one billion.
You realize what this will mean! (Score:5, Funny)
That'll teach'em.
Headline: EU Fines Microsoft $100,000,000! (Score:5, Interesting)
Next column:
Microsoft shares fall $0.02!Ohhh... nasty... fined ~$0.30 for each person in the EU...
Slap another two zeros on that and you would be talking about a serious fine.
Re:Headline: EU Fines Microsoft $100,000,000! (Score:5, Funny)
Slap another two zeros on that and you would be talking about a serious fine.
OK, $000.30 or $0.3000. Seems to be the same amount. What am I missing?
Re: Headline: EU Fines Microsoft $100,000,000! (Score:2, Funny)
Judge: "100 million Euros!" [Touches pinkie to corner of mouth.]
Cost of doing business? (Score:5, Interesting)
Happy Trails,
Erick
Re:Cost of doing business? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
FUD,FUD,FUD. (Score:5, Insightful)
All those migrations are not smooth, many things change (as we can attest by the great side business that teaching MS software is, a whole industry in helping people use the "user friendly" products of MS reaps the benefits).
It is completely disingineous to see people migrating all the time to very different software platforms whose only similarity is the name of the manufacturer and then deny that that same peoplsomehow would become stupid if they would need to migrate to OSS solutions.
Pure and adultereted FUD and patronizing of users covered by the sheepskin of concern for loss of productivity.
Re:Cost of doing business? (Score:2)
It would be an AVOIDABLE cost of doing business. Complying with the law would mean they would not have to have this expense, now or in the future.
Not enough (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Not enough (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Not enough (Score:3, Insightful)
Microsoft CORP maybe in the US but Microsoft Ireland is NOT, Microsoft Sweden is NOT, Microsoft France is NOT.
Plenty of places to hit.
Fines on corporations are merely taxes on consumer (Score:5, Insightful)
A fine against a corporation is just like a tax against a corporation. It is an embedded tax on the consumer. Whether or not many EU people buy MS products they will be paying this "fine". Simply put too many companies and governments use MS products which spreads the cost.
Another alternative would be for the EU to use it as an excuse to move to a linux variant or encourage the schools and other public institutions to do so.
Again, a fine is just a tax, so don't be cheering up that tax you will be paying.
Re:Fines on corporations are merely taxes on consu (Score:4, Interesting)
Normally, this is true. However, when discussing a company with billions in the bank, I think this is false. The company is not forced to raise prices to recoup the loss. In fact, the entire point of the fine is that the prices were already raised.
A tax on a company is a tax on consumers when the company is just barely staying afloat (which really describes most companies)... of course the customers may leave if it gets bad enough so it's still not a tax. (And again, the entire point is monopoly abuse, that customers can't just leave, so again, I don't think your comment applies in this case.)
I don't think any EU customers are going to see price hikes as a result of this; that would just get MS another, probably larger fine.
In related news... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:In related news... (Score:2)
Re:In related news... (Score:2)
Re:In related news... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:In related news... (Score:2, Funny)
Or Xbox's..
Just make sure... (Score:2)
We convert the 100 million eruo to $123,000,000, assume they get just as many airline miles... figure 100k miles per first class ticket between the states and Europe and Microsoft saves themselves the need to buy 1230 international airline tickets in future... talk about a business write off, lol.
Austin Powers obligatory joke (Score:5, Funny)
Microsoft Board : bwahahahaahhaahahahah
More Austin Powers obligatory quotes (Score:2)
EU: Why make trillions when we could make...Billions?
EU: No, because Bill Gates has "mojo". It's what the French call a certain 'I don't know what.'
EU: Begin the unnecessarily slow-moving litigation mechanism!
EU: As you know, every diabolical scheme I've hatched has been thwarted by Bill Gates. And why is that, ladies and gentlemen?
Consumer: Because you never kill him when you get the chance, and you're a dope?
Bill
Clueless EU (Score:5, Funny)
They may also wish these 100M to be paid in windows licenses, preferably to use in schools.
Not nearly enough. (Score:5, Funny)
1.2% of quarterly revenue: $120,000,000
Settling a lawsuit which slows your progress towards Complete World Domination: Priceless
Some things money can't buy. Everything else will soon be owned by Microsoft.
Re:Not nearly enough. (Score:2)
Re:Not nearly enough. (Score:3, Interesting)
if they keep fuckin around it's easy to determine that, and the _fine_ will return as a bigger one. all that said I'm pretty disappointed in the fine being so small, though that's how you deal with things I guess(starting with small fines and ending up with big fines if they keep doing what they're doing..).
like you paint your house without checking with the citys cityscape planning offficials and them not li
Fines are meaningless. (Score:5, Insightful)
This is just business as usual for Microsoft. Fines are a blip on the bottom line for a particular quarter. The MS war chest is huge, diverting a small percentage of revenue to the chest allows them to pay fines with money they took from you illegally in the first place.
Better idea for the governments: take the money then spend it on promoting open source and non-monopolistic software within your own countries.
Re:Fines are meaningless. (Score:2)
Calculation (Score:5, Informative)
MSFT has 10,805,000,000 outstanding shares. An increase of $0.009 will generate the $100M in shareholder value. If the stock price
Newsflash - fines are useless (Score:5, Insightful)
The effective solutions (start multiple companies off with the Windows source code and have them compete, for example) are very radical, and I don't know if most of them are in the power of the EU. But if the US government is any example, the will to use them isn't there anyway, so Microsoft can write their check and go back to business as usual.
Not just fines. (Score:5, Informative)
My fear is that MS will fight this decision tooth and nail, and that in the end the EU will take the easy way out, settling for just the cash. The EU will have their 'win'; MS can proceed with business as usual after ponying up some chump change.
I'd rather see MS keep their money but made tot comply with the other demands.
Re:Not just fines. (Score:2)
For fucks sake. I actually enjoy being able to install an operating system and using it right out of the box as opposed to having to go on an internet scavanger hunt for the crap I need to actually make the thing useless.
Yay, let's legislate the technology back to 1887!
Microsoft hat to disclose API (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Microsoft hat to disclose API (Score:2, Informative)
EUR100M *could* hurt (Score:3, Interesting)
MS: *Yawn* Can you make change for EUR1B?
EU:
Re:EUR100M *could* hurt (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:EUR100M *could* hurt (Score:2)
speculation? (Score:3, Funny)
But I heard it on Slashdot! It must be true!
Monopoly... (Score:2)
We will accept 150'000 and 4 stations.
Please do not accept coupons for MS products... (Score:5, Insightful)
I am begging any europeans reading this to make a holy noise about "COUPONS FOR MICROSOFT PRODUCTS WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED IN LIEU OF CASH". It's bad enough that we have Jethro Clampett in the US presidency, in charge of the USDoJ and the people's interest in the MS antitrust issue. Please help make sure the goon's mistakes are not mirrored in the EU! Also, don't accept any namby-pamby payment plans. Get the lump-sum immediately, or seize assets and slap extra fines for delaying payment.
Did you even read what kind of a lawsuit this is? (Score:2)
Well, in case you don't: let's just say that here we're talking about breaking the law, _not_ about compensating people who bought Windows '95.
I don't think anyone's ever paid in vouchers for breaking the law. Far as I know, not even in the USA.
It's like when a taxi gets stopped for speeding: they'll just give him/her the fine, not make him/her give away taxi v
and in other news... (Score:4, Funny)
read more (Score:5, Insightful)
What's 100 mio? Just a show of teeth, not a bite. Almost certainly (as with prior cases), it won't be "pay and continue", it'll be "pay and stop, and if you don't stop, we'll be doubling the fine and ask again, repeating until you do stop."
Re:A comissioner is both politician and judge? (Score:4, Insightful)
In the US, everything is mangled through the court system, and the government is - at least on paper - weak and limited.
In the EU, many things are handled by the bureaucracy, and the courts are generally seen as a last resort.
Both systems have their advantages and shortcomings. While the EU probably has the most convulted and bloated bureaucracy on the planet, the US is a giant job-guarantee program for lawyers and so lawsuit-happy that it is sickening.
What is this meant to accomplish? (Score:5, Informative)
If MS will cheerfully spend $100 million a month to *potentially* expand their monopoly into a new market-- basically gaining customers by largely paying for the customers' products for them-- how exactly is $100 million going to make a difference as a fine? Isn't the idea of antitrust remedy to do something to convince the company to not perform their anticompetitive actions again? $100 million isn't just something MS would happily pay to maintain their monopoly, it's LESS than they're ALREADY spending to maintain their monopoly.
If this does turn out to be more than just rumors, this isn't a penalty for monopolistic status and anticompetitive action; it's a tax, a "ok, go on as you have, but give us some money for the privilidge to do so", and a measly one at that.
under a billion (Score:3, Funny)
FOCUS (Score:2, Informative)
Good luck, EU. (Score:3, Funny)
Some details (Score:5, Informative)
Without regard for what many believe to be MS's list of anti-competitive actions, the EU complaint centers on two issues and those issues alone determine the findings and penalty (if any):
Microsoft is accused by the EU of trying to squelch rival products to its Windows Media Player, such as RealPlayer and Apple QuickTime.
Microsoft has also been accused of trying to squeeze out other firms in the market for "low-end servers" -- computers that provide e-mail and other services to multiple users and might run rival open-source software.
Anything else, no matter how guilty MS is of doing so, isn't part of the complaint and is moot.
The remedy proposed by the EU will almost certainly contain other conditions besides monetary penalties. As in the US judgment against MS, it's these conditions which will probably impact MS's future business and income, not the fine.
It is also widely believed that Microsoft will almost certainly appeal any decision that doesn't vindicate the company; estimates vary but all generally agree a final decision and remedy is years away.
Fines are fine, but open is better (Score:5, Interesting)
Many well-meaning individuals have proposed adding 3 zeros to the fine; this sounds good from an anti-Microsoft standpoint, but it's simply bad for the economy; remember that by fining a corporation ridiculous amounts of cash we don't punish the people that make the poor decisions (CEOs, chairmen, board of directors) but the guys just like us, working to make a living so that we can hack in our spare time and play with our kids.
There is a better way [slashdot.org], I think. If we force open formats for data storage and network protocols, market penetration will be less useful as leverage to increase the barrier to entry of competition.
Guys like us? (Score:2)
The assumption that most of Microsoft's billions in financial reserves are going towards paying the salaries of hard working coders is naive in the extreme.
As has been pointed out, that money is going primarily into funding attempts at new monopolies like the X-Box project where hundreds of millions a month are exhausted, much of it
Bill Gates, when hearing the news (Score:5, Funny)
"Yes, a hundred million"
"Whew ... for a second I thought you said a hundred billion ..."
This would make sense (Score:2, Insightful)
Reality Check (Score:2)
OK, so there is no truth to this wild speculation, yet it makes Slashdot.
Mastrubation is fun, yes?
Gates doesn't mind fines (Score:5, Interesting)
If you read many of the Microsoft biographies, you'll read stuff talking about how Gates was heavily into speeding everywhere he went, and was constantly being fined and given tickets. He even ended up in jail for it, which is where the infamous Bill Gates in jail picture came from.
But who cares? When you're making massive bucks each month, is it worth a few hundred in fines to stop speeding all the time, if you're not going to end up in jail for a long haul? No. Same goes with this. Paying this fine is just a great way of getting the EU off his back without any hard work.
Where will the money go? (Score:5, Insightful)
Will it just go into the EU's wallet or will it go to promote/help alternative OSs? I think that Microsoft definitely has some retribution in store but I think it's important that countries don't look at Microsoft as a blank check that they can use for their purposes.
The money needs to back to the source (i.e. the alternative OSs that were hurt).
(I couldn't get to the article because of the necessary subscription so this might be addressed there.)
Re:Where will the money go? (Score:2)
it's not so mucht the OSs that are hurt, but more software companies that made browsers and videoplayers.
for how much i understand the matter it was about false competition and selling (bundeling for free) products under the marketproce to gain a 'illegal' market advantage.
Sad times (Score:2)
This'll be worse then a slap on the wrist. It'll be like a distant aunt telling you not do something at a family picnic.
Whatever
I smell an audit (Score:4, Insightful)
At the Gates home ... (Score:5, Funny)
Gates:
Flunkie: Mr. Gates, did you hear me; 100 million!
Gates: Yeah, yeah, hold on a sec
Flunkie: Ummm, Mr. Gates
Gates: Hang on, I've got one more sofa cushion to go
Other reports state 3.22 *billion* dollars (Score:5, Informative)
Sneaky move for EUR vs USD battle (Score:2)
That's sneaky! When the fine will be finalized in EUR it will increase the exchange rate, so one EUR will be about $2USD. Therefor it will be about $200 MegaBucks! Go EU! :)
Politicians & Speculation (Score:2)
"Today, we don't feel like to admit it yet, so we'll call it 'speculation'
What?! No freaking lasers? (Score:2, Funny)
Mario Monti: "...one hundred MILLION dollars...muhahahaha..."
Bill Gates: [yawn]
The Fine is Irrelevant (Score:3, Insightful)
Microsoft's strategy was to woo content providers with a de-facto universal DRM scheme based on Windows. By signing up enough providers, MS would be able to end-run hardware makers and force them to adopt MS DRM in turn. This would nicely place MS (and Windows) in the middle of the food-chain. Without near-universal control of the media front-end, MS can't offer seamless protection to the content providers. Even with MS's abysmal security record, a blanket MS controlled regieme is preferable to the record companies et.al. than the current anarchy. Without the content providers on board, MS can't tell the hardware makers "our way or the highway". That means they have to compete with Sony and friends rather than outmaneuver them. And the hardware makers will always support open standards (free as in beer) whenever possible. That's because they've been paying gobs of money for technology licences to Sony and Matsushita for the last 25 years and they're sick of it.
If Monti orders an unbundle, it will almost certainly stand on appeal. And that just about wrecks the current MS DRM effort. Don't worry, though. They'll come up with another, but it will take a few years.
EU is pro-M$ &c (Score:2)
I've been trying to find info on the case on the EU w3site which is terribly disorganised -- worst site(s) I've ever seen. When I search for M$ o
Re:Makes me wonder (Score:5, Insightful)
And one might also speculate if there is any connections to the latest steel and Galileo-related trade wars.
No, see above. Besides which the EU went straight to WIPO concerning the steel tariffs and they were found totally illegal. The EU has already "retaliated" legally.
Re:Makes me wonder (Score:5, Insightful)
You see, some of us still live in "backwards" parts of the world (e.g., Europe), which still cling to old beliefs.
Like: that courts of law are actually there to uphold the law, not to just bend over and grab their ankles if it's a big corporation. The sad mockery of justice that the US did with Microsoft would have not happened in any European country. Again, repeat after me: the role of a court of law is to uphold the law, not to promote the financial interests of big business.
Or like: that the law itself is supposed to serve the people, and not just be a way for politicians to reward their corporate friends.
Now I'm not saying that it's perfect. But it does tend to work. And so far it's never produced such ridiculous clown shows as the Microsoft settlement in the USA.
So rest assured that if your government is there officially just to brown-nose the rich people for campaign donations, other governments and politicians tend to be a lot more subtle about taking bribes.
Re:Makes me wonder (Score:2)
Now really... The US political system may be in the pocket of big business, but the European political/judicial system is every bit as much i
Re:Makes me wonder (Score:5, Informative)
So, hey, how about taking your own advice: save the holier-than-thou stuff for when we actually know know the actual number.
But if you really want to debate a number pulled out of some journalist's ass, bear in mind that Europe already _did_ do stuff against Microsoft, among which overturning their OEM EULA. Here there's no automatic "Microsoft Tax" on hardware sales.
What's left in this "plastic sabre rattling" hinges mostly on stuff like the inclusion of the Windows Media Player in Windows, and how much it's hurt RealNetworks. (Although Real isn't an European company.)
I.e., whatever fines will be imposed, will have to do with the size of the damage in this case, not with some "let's bankrupt Microsoft because they're obviously evil" crusade.
The other face of the coin that courts of law should strictly uphold the law, is that they're not supposed to win a popularity contest either. The moment you start handing sentences like "pay 100 billion euro" or "burn the witch at the stake" just because it's what makes the spectators cheer, is just as wrong.
And honestly, if you want to know what I think about RealOne, see yesterday's thread. RealNetworks went above and beyond the call of duty to alienate their own users. Much as I'm otherwise no Microsoft fan, in this case _I_ would pat them on the back instead of any fine.
But again, that's all just ranting and speculation. Until we hear an official number, this is all just a useless typing exercise.
Re:Makes me wonder (Score:5, Insightful)
They would and they have. And, all other reasons aside, simply because there is no such thing as a "European company": if SAP or Nokia becomes monopolistic, half a dozen other European nations scream.
I think for Americans to complain that other Western nations have too close ties between domestic companies and government is absurd.
Re:Bingo (Score:5, Informative)
Gee, don't see many EU companies in that list do we? Oh wait yes we do!
Re:Bingo (Score:2, Informative)
Heck. 2004 as well. It's a short list right now but stay tuned [eu.int]
Re:Bingo (Score:4, Insightful)
Not saying _everyone_ is like that. Some people actually read stuff, and all... but you'd be surprised how many Americans' idea of European legal precedents is based on Hollywood action movies. And given Hollywood's tradition of treating other countries and cultures like a baby treats a diaper... you can guess what those ideas are like.
E.g., that around here we're all tribesmen, oppressed by some carricature of a corrupt government, and get mob/neo-nazi/whatever wars at every street corner. All while, of course, waiting for a True American Hero (TM) to come in, guns blazing, and restore justice.
Just sad...
Re:Bingo (Score:2, Funny)
Don't take it personally. Our idea of American legal precedents is based on hollywood action movies too.
Re:Bingo (Score:5, Informative)
Daimler Chrysler - 71m Euros in 1991
Deutche Post - 24m Euros in 1991
Volkswagen - 91m Euros in 2000
But in any case, Microsoft is not the record - Roche was fined 462m Euros for anti-trust in 2001. Google for more... [google.com]
Re:Bingo (Score:5, Informative)
European companies are governed by a much stricter monopolies law that makes it illegal to have a monoplistic market share, even if it was obtained fairly. Plenty of EU companies have been broken up long before they became as big.
Compared to Enron, the Parmalat scandal is pretty small beer, the shareholders were cheated, but they were not allowed to do anything like the manipulation of the California energy market Enron did.
Berlusconi's media empire has been getting away with plenty of chicanery, but only because Burlusconi became Prime Minister and awarded himself immunity from prosecution. Even then, he is being investigated and is likely to be brough to trial. Compare that to the treatment of Bush over his proven-beyond-doubt insider trading at Harken.
OK the US is no more corrupt than Italy, but it is pretty bad when it sinks to that level.
Re:$100 mill? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Look out for the settlement (Score:2, Insightful)
Exactly. If you want innovation, you need at least another two zeroes. As long as Microsoft have their desktop OS monopoly, innovation suffers.
Re:Look out for the settlement (Score:2)
Both of those statements would be true if a monopoly did not exist in the field. In the US, "Users" wanted better cheaper local and long distance phone service with more features and options back when Ma Bell was in charge. It only happened after a forced breakup and some form of competition was formed. Same with the airline industry back in the 70's, that was more of a regulatory issue but had the same resu
Re: (Score:2)
Not outside your fantasies they won't... (Score:4, Insightful)
Why Italy? Because Mr Mario is italian?
This is a EU decision, that this particular plumber, i mean minister is italian doesn't mean squat.
Anyway, "suspending business" in a market just to spite someone would be an incredibly stupid move for a software company, one that will never happen outside your fantasies.
The consequence would be an entire continent simultanously deciding to migrate all business critical apps away from MS, because they could no longer be considered a reliable supplier.
Does that sound like something MS would risk over what is, for them, pocket change?
No, they'll try to pay it in monopoly money (software to schools etc.) and if that don't work they'll just bite the bullet, pay in real money and move on.
Re:"Informed sources" (Score:2)
"If it's less than a hundred million euros they might consider just suspending business in Italy for a while."
Which would be illegal unless they stop bussiness in whole EU. (in short)
Obligatory Quote... (Score:2)
100 MILLION [EUR] DOLLARS
*Bill Gates breaks out in fits of laughter*
You owe us...
100 BILLION [EUR] DOLLARS
*Bill stops laughing*
Re:MS shouldn't pay (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:MS shouldn't pay (Score:2)