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Linux Business GNU is Not Unix

Linux Corporate Influence: Boon or Bane? 285

Posted by CowboyNeal from the closer-looks dept.
Mark Tobenkin writes "Are corporations exploiting the Open Source community? The Linux Public Broadcasting Network has video interviews with Ian Murdock (of Progeny and Debian fame), Martin Roesch (author of Snort), Jeremey White (CEO of CodeWeavers), Bradley Kuhn (FSF), Mike Balma (Linux Business Strategist for HP) and others on the evolving OSS business models. The interviews center around whether integration with proprietary products endangers the Open Source effort or increases consumers' freedom to choose."
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Linux Corporate Influence: Boon or Bane? More

Linux Corporate Influence: Boon or Bane?

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  • Think of OSS as language (Score:4, Insightful)

    by corebreech ( 469871 ) on Thursday August 21, 2003 @09:40PM (#6761175) Journal
    Isn't that the right analogy?

    Language lets people communicate ideas. The fact that a group of people may choose to communicate in private doesn't deter you and I from communicating.
    • It is a good analogy if you think about people controlling the kinds of language that can be used. There aren't many real-world examples of people doing this with 'human language'... except for the Academie Francaise [wikipedia.org]. This part of the French government controls which words are 'officially' to be used in France, and has been very aggressive about keeping English terms (such as email and computer) out of the language. It is against the law to use the word 'email' in France.

      But my point is that if language

      • "This part of the French government controls which words are 'officially' to be used in France, and has been very aggressive about keeping English terms (such as email and computer) out of the language. It is against the law to use the word 'email' in France."

        IIRC, the law only prohibits government employees from using the words in their official government work, such as paperwork. I doubt a French policeman would even bat an eye at the use of "email" or similar words by the general public.

        I do th

      • It is against the law to use the word 'email' in France
        Yeah, don't say this word in front of a cop!
        Now, seriously, it is NOT illegal to say "e-mail" (everyone does). However it should not appear on official documents (such as laws, etc).
        I don't know how we came to use "ordinateur" instead of computer, but "computer" would really sound ugly in French (as it contains two ugly words).

    • Here's another analogy (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Kappelmeister ( 464986 ) on Thursday August 21, 2003 @10:02PM (#6761342)
      I was thinking about how difficult the SCO mess is to explain to a layperson -- it's front page news for nerds, but it doesn't sound very sexy to everyone else.

      Here's my idea for a story you can use in case someone asks you at the water cooler. It's not a perfect analogy to OSS, but then, what is?

      Imagine that there's a group of amusement park enthusiasts who love scary, innovative rides. The big 6.28 Flags parks around just don't cut it -- they're far away, admission is expensive, and the rides are boring and dangerous. So the fans decide to move to a new town, Penguina, and build their own park.

      The Penguinans just love good rides, and they know how to make them. They work together to build a communal park that's scary as hell. Everyone chips in to come up with a new ride design, or build a ride. And each ride is open to everyone around, for no charge.

      Eventually, word of the up-and-coming Penguina Park gets around. Lots of new residents move in each year to help build it up. Even more numerous are the tourists who just come to have fun -- more fun than they ever had at 6.28 Flags.

      Eventually, the park gets the attention of ride vendors, big companies like UBM2 and startups like Red Beret. These companies can't buy out the park, since the Penguina residents agreed to never let that happen. But they can invest in the park ("this ride was sponsored by UBM2") and sell related merchandise, such as park maps, guided tours and seat cushions. Eventually Penguina Park gets so popular that everyone from government employees to Star Trek helmsmen go there for the biggest thrills they can have with their clothes on.

      Then one day, Vomit Unlimited, a fading rollercoaster company with some good rides to its legacy, comes along and says to the Penguina community: "Guys, there's a ride in your park that's based on one of our designs. We didn't say it could be a part of your little hostel."

      "Oops," rejoin the Penguina residents. "OK, tell us which ride and we'll take it out."

      "I can't tell you that, it's a secret," says the Vomit Unlimited rep. "But I can't let you keep riding it for free, either. I've got no choice but to claim ownership of the whole park. Oh, don't worry, you can still use the rides. You'll just have to pay us $299 each to get in."

      Naturally, the Penguina residents find this absurd. So do the corporations -- volunteer work is one thing, but they're not about to surrender their investments. UBM2 dismisses Vomit Unlimited. Vomit Unlimited sues.

      "Oh, come on," entreat the Penguinans. "You can't win against UBM2. Just tell us which ride is yours."

      "I'm afraid it's not that simple," croaks the rep. "You see, there's actually a whole series of rides that we own across the park. Infrastructure, too, so the park won't run at all if you take out our property. Now, buy your tickets, kids, since we'll be charging $699 soon." Scrawny guards with Vomit Unlimited logos (brown-green puddles with chunks of Chef Boyardee) begin to take positions around the park entrances, threatening to poke the eyes of any trespassers.

      The amusement park trade journals laugh at the shop, but the mainstream papers take it seriously, leading people to wonder if there's a serious problem with the communal Penguina system.

      Blood vessels breach. UBM2 sues Vomit Unlimited. Red Beret takes aim. But Vomit keeps spewing warnings to everyone who rides, from the government on down.

      How will the craziness end?? Stay tuned!

  • SCO is... (Score:5, Funny)

    by JessLeah ( 625838 ) on Thursday August 21, 2003 @09:42PM (#6761188)
    ...a corporation exploiting Linux quite nicely ;)

  • Hah! (Score:4, Funny)

    by tds67 ( 670584 ) on Thursday August 21, 2003 @09:43PM (#6761197)
    Are corporations exploiting the Open Source community?

    I SCOff at the mere suggestion, sir!

  • I'd rather use Photoshop than the Gimp (Score:5, Interesting)

    by bons ( 119581 ) on Thursday August 21, 2003 @09:44PM (#6761202) Homepage Journal
    Get Adobe and Macromedia to port to Linux and I think you'll see a major increase in usage.

    The question is, "Is that really the goal?"

    Do you want lots of users or lots of contributors?
    Do you want to be the virus target by virtue of numbers?

    If you do, then get some of the larger applications to port. If not, then why worry?

    • Re:I'd rather use Photoshop than the Gimp (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Gherald ( 682277 ) on Thursday August 21, 2003 @09:49PM (#6761242) Journal
      > If not, then why worry?

      Because a larger userbase translates into greater driver support on part of the hardware manufacturers, which would take a huge burden off the OSS community and allow developers to focus on creating useful applications.
      • "Because a larger userbase translates into greater driver support on part of the hardware manufacturers, which would take a huge burden off the OSS community and allow developers to focus on creating useful applications. "

        And before long, you have an OS that is so feature ridden that every week there's a new obnoxious exploit.

        • > And before long, you have an OS that is so feature ridden that every week there's a new obnoxious exploit.

          I don't agree with your cynical view, but if/when that happens, people like you can turn to BSD, which by that time will be where Linux is today =)
          • " don't agree with your cynical view, but if/when that happens, people like you can turn to BSD, which by that time will be where Linux is today =) "

            Actually I happen to like features. The point I was making is that Linux, with a large user base, will turn into Windows. Then the community will move to some other brand new OS because they like the benefits of what happens when it's got its little niche audience.

            I fully expect that if Linux becomes a major desktop OS, it'll become the thing that's fun to

            • Re:I'd rather use Photoshop than the Gimp (Score:4, Insightful)

              by rifter ( 147452 ) on Friday August 22, 2003 @04:14AM (#6762977) Homepage


              Actually I happen to like features. The point I was making is that Linux, with a large user base, will turn into Windows. Then the community will move to some other brand new OS because they like the benefits of what happens when it's got its little niche audience.

              Only if they close the source and/or remove the ability to modify and distribute distributions. Otherwise you will always be free to strip out features you don't want. What you say? "I am not a programmer?" That's alright, Jack because someone is and will be just as annoyed as you that Linux is bloated, guaranteed. Those people will provide either the distro stripped down or instructions to make your installation go that route.

              This is why we have Slackware, debian, the source based distros, et al. Someone did not like the way other distros worked and made their own and maintained it with these design goals in mind. And if you don't like it, you can mke your own. There are thousands of distros to choose from if you don't feel like doing that, or LFS if you want to learn how.

            • "The point I was making is that Linux, with a large user base, will turn into Windows"

              Just out of curiousity how large does the user base become before it turns into windows? Linux currently has millions of deploymentss. 2% of the worldwide desktop market may seem small compared to windows... but it hardly is small when you consider how many desktops that actually is.

              I seriously doubt linux will ever turn into windows ;) No matter how many users there is still no motivation for early release, patches s
          • I am already seriously looking at migrating the server I run at home off of linux and onto BSD.

            My linux box has just been attacked too much in the last couple years.
        • "And before long, you have an OS that is so feature ridden that every week there's a new obnoxious exploit."

          Funny? I see this happening actually. Security and features are generally inversely related. You can't 'permission' yourself to save yourself from havoc from every feature out there.

          Kind of reminds me of universal remotes. It's damned convenient to have one remote that does it all, but my poor neighbor still can't figure out why his TV comes on at 3am.

      • Re:I'd rather use Photoshop than the Gimp (Score:4, Insightful)

        by El ( 94934 ) on Thursday August 21, 2003 @10:50PM (#6761608)
        Not as much greater driver sport as you think. Hardware manufacturers will only write drivers for the latest cards (the ones that they are still selling) for any operating system. It would still be up to the OSS community to provide support for every piece of hardware the manufacturers are no longer making money off of. This is one of the most annoying things about windows -- by and large it requires new drivers for each major release, but hardware manufactures have zero incentive to rewrite the drivers for their old hardware. As a result, you're virtually forced to buy new hardware and peripherals to run the latest version of Windows!

    • Re:I'd rather use Photoshop than the Gimp (Score:4, Insightful)

      by antiMStroll ( 664213 ) on Thursday August 21, 2003 @09:52PM (#6761263)
      Do you want to be the virus target by virtue of numbers?

      The numbers are already there in the server environment, the juiciest, most rewarding targets available. Still waiting for the deluge.

    • Re:I'd rather use Photoshop than the Gimp (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Feztaa ( 633745 ) on Thursday August 21, 2003 @09:53PM (#6761269) Homepage
      Do you want to be the virus target by virtue of numbers?

      The answer is most definitely YES!

      If Linux was the de facto virus target (as Windows currently is), then what you'd see is an increased scrutiny in the code, more patches, and an overall better system. What I'm trying to get at here is that increased visibility basically equates to increased quality.

      Or, "what doesn't kill me makes me stronger" --> the more we're attacked, the better our systems become.

      Bring it on! :)

      • flaw in your logic (Score:4, Insightful)

        by SHEENmaster ( 581283 ) <travis@uUUUtk.edu minus threevowels> on Thursday August 21, 2003 @10:30PM (#6761506) Homepage Journal
        Windows has been the de facto virus target, but that doesn't seem to have increased code quality...

        I think a paranoid requirement for security, at the cost of hardware support and "cool features", makes for the best security. Look at OpenBSD. It doesn't have SMP support, or many of the other features of FreeBSD. What it does have is a system in which every incoming line of code is reviewed for security implications, one of the most secure on this planet.
        • "Windows has been the de facto virus target, but that doesn't seem to have increased code quality..."

          Are you sure about that?

          Few things to think about:

          1.) Everybody hates Microsoft
          2.) As a result of point 1, the media likes making a BFD over every little thing.
          3.) Despite the media coverage mentioned in point 2, if the code wasn't getting better, then the increase in exploits would be geometric. We wouldn't have this big worm here, we'd have 10 of them.

          Perception plays a much better part of this equat
        • Windows has been the de facto virus target, but that doesn't seem to have increased code quality...

          Prove it. Windows has substantially better development tools, better security tools, and better administration tools than it did five years ago.
        • Windows has been the de facto virus target, but that doesn't seem to have increased code quality...

          Well, we'll never know, because the source code isn't open for our perusal. But then again, that's part of my point. Anybody who feels like it can fix a bug in Linux (and in theory, the more linux users there are, the more people there would be looking at and working on the code), but you have to work for Microsoft to fix a bug in Windows.
        • Improvements to the Windows codebase as a result of emerging exploits is blocked by one simple fact. Microsoft doesn't get paid for fixing defects. They get paid for selling a new copy with "new" features.

          There is really an enormous significance to the difference in development models here. Open source is driven by need for functionality, whereas business is driven by profit.

          Maintence is a business expense, and security fixes are maintenence. Until a company such as Microsoft can figure out how to be paid
      • If Linux was the de facto virus target (as Windows currently is),
        You're already seeing the increased scrutiny and patches.

        More important, IMNSHO is that Linux and especially the BSDs are heading in the direction where I should be able to run unpatched vulnerable exploitable software with relative impunity. It's like going out in the rain. I get wet but I don't melt.

    • Exactly. That is why I use my PowerBook. I enjoy using Dreamweaver (code + preview), and Flash.
      Even though I do like to use the Gimp more then Photoshop, I bet a handful more then I would rather
      do the opposite.--Just think Adobe and Macromedia, how much market share you would gain from
      just porting already existing code...

      • Re:I'd rather use Photoshop than the Gimp (Score:5, Informative)

        by meta-monkey ( 321000 ) on Thursday August 21, 2003 @10:40PM (#6761558) Journal
        Sadly, not much. I'm a Mac user, too, but I used to use dual boot linux and windows. Linux just doesn't have the market share on the desktop to be worth Adobe's time and trouble.

        First, I know that photographers are not the only users of Photoshop. However, I'm a professional photographer, but I have a Master's in electrical and computer engineering. You simply have no idea about the level of cluelessness amongst photographers with regards to computers. I go to my local professional photographers guild meetings and I just have to bite my tongue to keep from screaming at their ignorance. These people can barely handle windows. Linux would scare them out of their gourds. I really don't think Adobe would see any more sales by porting their products to Linux. Also, I seem to recall seeing a /. story not too long ago about Disney or somebody getting Photoshop to work through Wine... That may be the better way to go for Linux enthusiasts who want to run Photoshop.
        • You simply have no idea about the level of cluelessness amongst photographers with regards to computers.

          But is that really the point? Designers and prepress folks more often than not are true geeks - or at least hire true geeks to tend their equipment. And it really matters when you're working on a deadline if your system crashes - this can be more important than raw speed when it doesn't, if crashing is a factor. Now that photographers are going digital, some of them are using Photoshop, but that's not t
    • Get Adobe and Macromedia to port to Linux and I think you'll see a major increase in usage

      I don't necessarily think that will help. I pointed out to our company's graphics/design girl that PhotoShop runs under Linux quite nicely using the latest version of CrossOver Office [codeweavers.com] last week. However, she likes her Windows and sees little reason to switch. She's gotten used to the way things work under Windows and has yet to see the smoking gun that will make her switch.

      And on the point of pointing the apps to Li

    • Re:I'd rather use Photoshop than the Gimp (Score:4, Informative)

      by rmohr02 ( 208447 ) <mohr.42NO@SPAMosu.edu> on Thursday August 21, 2003 @10:00PM (#6761324)
      Adobe Photoshop now works under Wine, thanks to Disney of all people. Also, Open Office can create PDFs.

      And if you mean Macromedia Flash, I expect SVG to replace it in a couple years. Of course, that means there will need to be a comparable editor for SVG.

    • Get Adobe and Macromedia to port to Linux and I think you'll see a major increase in usage.

      Hmmm, not the worst idea I've heard of. Even more so as there seems to be some growing ill will between Adobe and Apple, what with the battle between them over their movie editing applications. Adobe adding the option of Linux would be a poke at OSX.

      Still, it may be possible to get them to run on the BSD backend .. but that's another can of worms :) The only BSD I know of is NetBSD and I've found the ability t

    • Get Adobe and Macromedia to port to Linux and I think you'll see a major increase in usage.

      hell get me a NLVE that is as capable and useable as Premiere 5 and I'd pay $400.00 for it.

      for some reason NOBODY wants to make a useable and stable NLE video app for linux.

      Then get me After Effects 4.0 on linux and I'd again spend money.

      Linux is 100% ready to replace windows... it's the lack of business apps that are desperately needed that is the problem...

      (Note, don't tell me to use Main Actor or the even b

  • Logical OR (Score:4, Interesting)

    by mandolin ( 7248 ) on Thursday August 21, 2003 @09:45PM (#6761220)
    The interviews center around whether integration with proprietary products endangers the Open Source effort or increases consumers' freedom to choose."

    And the answer is.. "Yes".

    Thank you, please proceed to the next /. discussion.

  • What's it going to be? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 21, 2003 @09:48PM (#6761237)
    Corporations have specific needs. If OSS can fill that need, then they will try to use it. As long as the software's license is not violated then I don't see the problem. If you think this is a problem, change your license to something more restrictive.

    I find this interesting in that many of you want to see OSS flourish, compete with major software houses (like Microsoft), and be used by as many people as possible. Now that this is starting to happen, will you claim that the spirit of OSS is being violated by corporations and resist its growth?

    • It's like your favorite band getting big. (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Theatetus ( 521747 ) on Thursday August 21, 2003 @10:13PM (#6761406) Journal

      It's no different than when your favorite local band gets a big record deal.

      At first you're ecstatic because now you'll hear them on the radio, see them in big venues, etc. Then you start to get annoyed at all the new fans who only know the songs off their "big" album and not their older, infinitely better stuff.

      Finally they stop playing their old stuff totally and you decide they've "sold out" just because they're more popular than they used to be.

  • Pay Up (Score:3, Funny)

    by karmavore ( 618727 ) on Thursday August 21, 2003 @09:48PM (#6761238)

    These interviews regarding the corporate influence on Linux are discussing SCO Intellectual Property. By watching them you agree to pay SCO $699 per viewing.

    $incerely Your$

    B.McBride

    • Re:Pay Up (Score:2, Funny)

      by tds67 ( 670584 )
      These interviews regarding the corporate influence on Linux are discussing SCO Intellectual Property. By watching them you agree to pay SCO $699 per viewing.

      $incerely Your$

      B.McBride

      Dear Mr. McBribe,

      I read with passing interest your assertion that discussing Linux somehow infringles on your intellectual property.

      If you would disclose the part of the discussion that infringles on your IP rights, the Linux community can remove the offending part of said discussion.

      If you will not do so, or insist on an N

  • The Quiet War Over Open-Source (Score:5, Informative)

    by segment ( 695309 ) <sil@po l i t r i x .org> on Thursday August 21, 2003 @09:49PM (#6761243) Homepage Journal
    Thought I would post this as it is somewhat relevant.

    The Quiet War Over Open-Source
    By Jonathan Krim
    Thursday, August 21, 2003 [original article [washingtonpost.com]]

    Every day now, it seems, we do battle with technology. If it isn't spam, it's worms. If it isn't the worms, it's viruses, or hacking, or identity theft. Sometimes, it's the gadgets and software we buy that are still too hard to use.

    But as technology in general, and the Internet in particular, drives deeper into the fabric of daily life, battles also rage behind the scenes. They are struggles for control over how the Internet should work, over who sets the rules for its pipes and gateways and who owns the material that moves through them. These are the wars fought with armies of corporate lobbyists, technologists and citizen activists but largely ignored by the general public. And none is larger, or carries higher financial stakes, than the issue with the eye-glazing name of intellectual property.

    Consumers are getting a taste of this right now, as the major record companies sue hundreds of people for stealing their works by using file-sharing programs. On another front, "open-source" software, which relies on collaboration and sharing of computer code rather than traditional for-profit development and distribution of programs, is capturing the attention of cash-strapped governments and businesses as a less-expensive alternative to commercial products.

    Open-source software has been embraced by some companies that are building businesses around it. But it is the bane of others, including the industry's most powerful player, Microsoft Corp. The world's largest software maker is lobbying furiously in state, national and international capitals against laws that would promote the consideration or use of open-source software. So alarmed agents of Microsoft sprang into high gear in June after a surprising quote appeared in Nature magazine from an official of the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO). The official said that the Switzerland-based group of about 180 nations, which promotes intellectual-property rights and standards around the globe, was intrigued by the growth of the open-source movement and welcomed the idea of a meeting devoted to open-source's place in the intellectual-property landscape.

    The proposal for the meeting had come in a letter from nearly 60 technologists, economists and academics from around the world, and was organized by James Love, who runs the Ralph Nader-affiliated Consumer Project on Technology.

    Love and others argue that in some areas, such as pharmaceuticals or software that powers critical infrastructure or educational tools, developing nations in particular would benefit from less restrictive or alternative copyright, patent or trademark systems.

    In short order, lobbyists from Microsoft-funded trade groups were pushing officials at the State Department and the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office to squelch the meeting. One lobbyist, Emery Simon with the Business Software Alliance, said his group objected to the suggestion in the proposal that overly broad or restrictive intellectual-property rights might in some cases stunt technological innovation and economic growth.

    Simon insists that his group does not oppose open-source software, or discussion of the issue, but fights to defend the notion that a strong system of proprietary rights offers the best avenue for the development of groundbreaking software by giving its inventors economic incentive to do so.

    And he said that the BSA's governing board, composed of several companies in addition to Microsoft, unanimously opposed the letter and the meeting.

    The U.S. government, which wields considerable clout in WIPO, might not have needed prodding from Microsoft to demand that the idea of an open-source meeting be quashed.

    Lois Boland, director of international relations for the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office,

    • One lobbyist, Emery Simon with the Business Software Alliance, said his group objected to the suggestion in the proposal that overly broad or restrictive intellectual-property rights might in some cases stunt technological innovation and economic growth.

      Contrast going down the freeway with negotiating and paying each individual farmer whose land you pass over.
      Of course he objects to the suggestion. He doesn't want anyone getting anywhere close to finding out how much it is stunting innovation and growth.

  • Freedom != Choice (Score:5, Informative)

    by Dancin_Santa ( 265275 ) <DancinSanta@gmail.com> on Thursday August 21, 2003 @09:50PM (#6761250) Journal
    Everyone keeps making the incorrect assumption that Free software is "Free as in Speech". Wrong.

    Free Software means "Free as in Freedom". The software itself is Free, unshackled by anything. The outcome of this is that the software would always carry its source around with it, and it couldn't lose its Freedom because it is legally protected from people who would seek to usurp that Freedom. The GPL specifies the rights of the Software, and it does a good job in protecting the Freedom of the Software.

    Think of the GPL as a Bill Of Rights (U.S.) or Charter of Rights and Freedoms (CND) for software. It lists the Freedoms that cannot be taken away from the software.

    Since the GPL and Free Software (and OSS by association) pertain to the Freedom of Software and not the matter of Choice, there is nothing to talk about except that it is up to the user whether they intend to use UnFree (enslaved) software on their system.

    Perhaps one day we will all use unshackled software on our systems, but until then it is imperative that we focus on the ills of software enslavement rather than on welcoming software slave traders into our midst.

    • Er.... (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Chuck Chunder ( 21021 )
      Everyone keeps making the incorrect assumption that Free software is "Free as in Speech". Wrong. Free Software means "Free as in Freedom".
      The "Free as in speech" term actually means what you mean by "Free as in freedom".

      ie "Free as in (free) speech" or "Free as in (freedom of) speech".
    • "Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

  • Exploitation? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by bersl2 ( 689221 ) on Thursday August 21, 2003 @09:51PM (#6761259) Journal
    As long as people understand that they can get the same product for free with a little more effort put into setup, any "exploitation" is acceptable.

    That said, the problem has always been getting name recognition without advertising or other corporate-type actions.

  • 2-faced approach is more appropriate (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Renderer of Evil ( 604742 ) on Thursday August 21, 2003 @09:59PM (#6761318) Homepage
    It is really amusing how Sun goes on to spread FUD [silicon.com] about Linux in enterprise in light of the SCO lawsuit, yet they go on to employ Linux related solutions whenever it cuts the operating costs and overhead. Mad Hatter [sun.com] is a good example of this. Sun is stabbing Linux in a back [com.com] when releasing press releases by pushing their queer Solaris/Unix in news reports how Linux might be dangerious in terms of IP infringment, yet you see them deploy Gnome and praise it for own gain.

    and lets not forget, Linux is Unix [silicon.com], by Sun.

    • Re:2-faced approach is more appropriate (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Tony-A ( 29931 ) on Thursday August 21, 2003 @11:17PM (#6761737)
      [Dan Frye, director of IBM's Linux Technology Center in New York]
      "Sun is a formidable company and we would welcome them as a competitor. But we'll spend little time worrying about Sun as long as they continue to misunderstand what Linux is about."

      Methinks IBM has figured something out. I do not know what, but it is substantial. It's not as simple as "Open Source Rules" and it's certainly not just open source. The closest I can get is symbiosis defined as mutual parasitism. Both benefit from what should be an antagonistic relationship.
    • It is really amusing how Sun goes on to spread FUD about Linux in enterprise in light of the SCO lawsuit, yet they go on to employ Linux related solutions whenever it cuts the operating costs and overhead.

      You call it FUD, some call it one possible outcome.

      Think about this for a moment. What if SCO does win? That would mean AIX would be in trouble and so would Linux. However, Solaris would be in the clear. What about Sun and their sales of Linux? Couldn't SCO sue Sun too? Even though Scott is saying

  • Maybe (Score:5, Insightful)

    by venom600 ( 527627 ) on Thursday August 21, 2003 @10:03PM (#6761351) Homepage Journal

    I often wonder if corporations basing their whole infrastructure off of linux (and other free software) is really fair to the open source community. Corporations who have embraced open software (linux specifically) are really saving themselves a lot of money. It'd be nice of those coporations would kick back some of their savings into supporting open source projects and initiatives.

    On the other hand, without wide adoption, the rate at which Linux has developed probably wouldn't be any where near what it currently is. The best way to find bugs and feature requests is to get as many people as possible banging on a piece of software until it fails (or seems deficient in one area or another). So maybe the exposure, feature enhancements and bugs found are the proper 'payment' I spoke of.

    • Re:Maybe (Score:5, Insightful)

      by muzzmac ( 554127 ) on Thursday August 21, 2003 @10:22PM (#6761448)
      I read a comment in our organisation about "taking advantage" of open source which is based on a spirit of collaboration and contribution.

      I asked the person involved (fairly senior) if we as an organisation intended to contribute to these communities. The answer was luke warm but slightly positive.

      Talking to senior IT management about the companies stance on making some contributions back into the open source community when possible is worthwhile...

      Limiting factors for larger corporates are issues around liability, determining if something gives a core business market advantage (should be kept proprietary in the medium term) and resource/support issues. Some of the technical tools which we modify could be useful to the community.

      Interesting challenge. I hope we can do something in the future.

      Hopefully the seed is planted.

    • Re:Maybe (Score:3, Interesting)

      by tunabomber ( 259585 )
      Don't forget that companies that want to use Linux extensively will have to hire Linux experts to build and maintain their systems.
      Who knows the most about Linux? - members of the open source community that support it. So, in effect, they will be supporting the community by providing jobs for its contributers.

  • The real Ian Murdock interview. (Score:5, Funny)

    by niko9 ( 315647 ) on Thursday August 21, 2003 @10:09PM (#6761387)
    Murdock: You want answers?

    LPBN: I think I'm entitled to them.

    Murdock: You want answers?

    LPBN: I want the truth!

    Murdock: You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has Linux opertaing systems. And those operating systems have to be guarded by men with compilers. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. McBride? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for BSD and you curse Red Hat. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that BSD's death, while tragic, probably saved desktops. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves desktops...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at LAN parties, you want me on that kernel list. You need me on that weekly Debian update.
    We use words like l33t, code, haxor...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use 'em as a Slashdot punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very apt-get I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a orphaned package and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!

    LPBN: Did you order the Debian swirl red?

    Murdock: (quietly) I did the GNU OS you sent me to do.

    LPBN: Did you order that Debian swirley thing to be red?

    Murdock: You're goddamn right I did!!

    Of course, for clarity, they had to edit it a bit.

  • Why would there be a problem? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Kjella ( 173770 ) on Thursday August 21, 2003 @10:09PM (#6761390) Homepage
    Commercial programs make for choices. It provides an option instead of "Go write it yourself". Maybe GIMP doesn't do it for you and you need the full Adobe Photoshop. And if you do, you need to go with one of the OSs where Photoshop exists, yes?

    It's not like they would be a threat to the free programs - things the mass market wants or needs gets written, it's the more advanced or obscure stuff you get in commercial apps. Not to mention many people have time "invested" in specific apps that they would like to keep.

    There's a considerable number of programs for which there are a market, and people are willing to part with the cash, but there's none or too few OSS developers. Sure, a single company could do a "work for hire", but there's no mass-market equivalent. You don't see thousands or even millions of people pitching in a couple dollars to write an OSS piece of software, but the same people would consider paying for a commercial app.

    I think commercial applications and OSS programs push eachother forward. The commercial programs need to be better than the free if they want to get any money for it, while the OSS programs see where they are still lacking and could catch up. Not that OSS software can't be innovative itself, but there's no doubt that commercial applications have a great pressure to sell upgrades, while an OSS project can basicly declare itself more or less "done" and just focus on perfecting that.

    Kjella
    • There's a considerable number of programs for which there are a market, and people are willing to part with the cash, but there's none or too few OSS developers. Sure, a single company could do a "work for hire", but there's no mass-market equivalent. You don't see thousands or even millions of people pitching in a couple dollars to write an OSS piece of software, but the same people would consider paying for a commercial app.

      This is an interesting point that I've brought up in my own discussions with peo

  • What about Apple? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by f-matic ( 643215 ) on Thursday August 21, 2003 @10:10PM (#6761394) Homepage
    Didn't see them mentioned yet, but they seem like a perfect example of a proprietary business model drawing from the OSS movement. But I don't think the either/or question really captures what's going on in these situations. Seems to me in Apple's case (which is fairly similar to others discussed in the videos), they're obviously exploiting the OSS movement (albeit in a fairly clever and media-massaged kinda way) -- just look at Safari, which adds value to their operating system and draws extensively from the open source technologies developed in Konqueror -- and makes them more money. But at the same time they're contributing code back to OSS and adding value back to the OSS.

    I mean, c'mon, this is America -- aren't exploitation and cooperation the same thing?

  • It's called 'Value Add' (Score:2, Interesting)

    by TWX ( 665546 )
    Let's say that I want to build something, and I want to sell it for profit. I can either take a lot of time and duplicate work that has already been done many, many times, or I can use something that I am legally allowed to, as long as I respect the license that it is available to me through, and I am good to go. I may make modifications to code, but if I provide this code to the people that I distribute the product to (and to the developers who wrote the original code, if they want it), all is good.

    If

  • OSS needs Business (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 21, 2003 @10:22PM (#6761447)
    Ultimately, businesses MUST be able to succeed with Open Source Software for Open Source Software to become truly successful.
    • I usually do not call to mod up anons but well put. I totally agree, we need to use open source without silly treats of violations of terms of use. Business people hesitate to use open source not because they do not know about it but they do not know how to pay for it!
    • I don't think that anyone would disagree with your statement. The problems arise in the details.

      Should a business be permitted to make closed source changes to GPL software? No.

      Should a business be permitted to patent the use of OSS for a particular purpose? No.

      Is there anything that prevents businesses from making software that runs on top of OSS using library calls, or prevents a business from using OSS to offer services that they can charge for? No.

      I fail to see what the problem that so many busines
    • This depends on how you measure the "success" of OSS.

      Having contributed to OSS in the past, in admittedly a fairly minor way, I figured my contribution was a success when I got a few email thank you's from people who I'd helped out. I couldn't care less whether an OSS project I contribute to has 10 or 10 million users, whether they're hackers at home or large corporates, although I obviously don't speak for the maintainers of any individual OSS project.

      Projects like Apache have benefited from having IBM

  • www.CodeWeavers.com (Score:3, Informative)

    by jwnewman ( 255304 ) on Thursday August 21, 2003 @10:26PM (#6761475) Homepage
    The link for CodeWeavers is wrong. It's www.codeweavers.com [codeweavers.com]

  • Sorry, but it's not your decision! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by swordgeek ( 112599 ) on Thursday August 21, 2003 @10:30PM (#6761501) Journal
    You release your code under the GPL, and if a company decides to exploit it in a way that doesn't violate the GPL but pisses you off, then too bad. Suck it up. Deal with it. Either suffer, or write under a different license.

    This is exactly the same question that keeps coming up when people look at unpleasant military organisations using open/free code, and has the same answer. If you don't like it, don't release it to them.

  • I interviewed a salesman today: open source focus (Score:4, Interesting)

    by puzzled ( 12525 ) on Thursday August 21, 2003 @10:30PM (#6761505) Journal
    I interviewed a sales guy today and the focus is marketing two experienced NT/Netware admins. They'll support the systems they're used to handling but they're going to learn Samba and Mars_NWE and start whacking those systems where appropriate.

    I've been 'exploiting' an Open Source OS - just placed a php/postgres developer, and my ill gotten gains from his work are what is going to feed the marketing weasel. Am I an evil corporate scumbag? I wore a t-shirt, jean shorts, and sandals to work today, and nobody said shit about it because I'M THE COMPANY PRESIDENT!!! MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ...

    Oh! I am a slashdot.heretic - see below:

    [panic] ~> uname -a

    FreeBSD panic.slashdot.net 4.8-STABLE FreeBSD 4.8-STABLE #13: Fri Aug 1 14:39:01 CDT 2003 puzzled@panic.slashdot.net:/usr/src/sys/compile/pa nic i386

  • Not even an issue... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by evilviper ( 135110 ) on Thursday August 21, 2003 @10:40PM (#6761557) Journal
    [...] whether integration with proprietary products endangers the Open Source effort or increases consumers' freedom to choose."

    Of course it doesn't.

    No matter how something gets used, there is nothing that is going to take away your ability to use the open source/free software. Just because Microsoft makes Office available, doesn't take away your ability to use Open Office, etc. Of course, it's only the GPL people that are worried about this, becuase they live in an entirely different world than everyone else... If this was about BSD/MIT software, there wouldn't even be a discussion.

  • does this really matter? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by hankaholic ( 32239 ) on Thursday August 21, 2003 @10:58PM (#6761651)
    Without having listened to the interviews (yeah, yeah, so I didn't RTFA, or LTTFI in this case, so sue me), I'm going to respond to what comment was posted to the ./ front page about them. Here goes.

    What's the point of this? Is corporate influence good or bad for Linux? What? From whose perspective are you asking?

    I really don't think that the question itself is worth asking. You can't boil a complex set of technologies and interactions down to a simple "it's great!" or "it sucks!".

    Based on the list of people interviewed, I'd imagine that more than just the Linux kernel is being addressed -- GNU, distros, free software in general.

    Is modifying it all to work with new systems a good thing in general? I'd say yes, as it's always nice to have interested people making sure that code is truly portable. Note that I'm not saying, "more users mean more bugs found!", but that if a company wants to spend time and money fixing portability and compatibility issues, then I don't see how that's a bad thing.

    Anyone contributing to a project has a reason for doing so. This is true whether they're paid for it or not -- either they're working to meet their own needs, or the needs of someone else. Code gets implemented for a reason, and I think that saying "Is corporate involvement in Linux a good thing?" is similar to asking "Was DJ Delorie's port of GCC to DOC a good thing?"

    Obviously, if someone spends resources making free software into something that is useful to them, then it could be seen as having been a "good thing" for them.

    Are corporations exploiting the OSS community? I don't know. Define "exploit". I'd imagine that for every company "exploiting" OSS by using it without contributing there are 1000 people who downloaded and installed OSS without ever having contributed anything back.

    Maybe there's something Zen-like to my point of view on the topic. Is widespread adoption of GNU/Linux on the desktop a good thing? Is widespread adoption of computers in general a good thing? Is it better for Linux to improve, or for Microsoft to pull their heads a little further out of their asses with regards to quality control? These are questions you can't answer without context. Good for whom? For the desktop user? For me? For you? For your employer? Your grandmother? Residents of Uganda?

    Until context is provided, I suppose the answer to the question, "Boon or Bane?" is simply, mu.
  • Every summer I give Linux another shot as my desktop OS. Time and time again I go back to Windows. Why? It's less of a hassle.
    Dependencies, incompatabilities, nightmares... There needs to be a better way to unite the Linux community to make a superior product. Until then, Windows will remain on top for the desktop OS. But once you do that, legal issues and crap will occur... /me shrugs
    • It is understandable you do not understand linux therefore you shy from it. Fear not young one we will teach you to understand the ways of the Linux jedi!

      Hey I bet you are the guy, that keeps sending me all of those emails with the .pif attachments.
    • A big part of the problem is that the "Linux Community" is not the cause of your frustrations. The Linux community is responsible only for the kernel code.
      The people that need to be united are the myriad of open source developers that provide 95% of the software you use on your system. Much of that software is from GNU, a lot from more-or-less standalone projects like Apache, KDE, XFree86 and the like.

      It's about like asking the people who build toasters, mops, automobiles and orange juice to all get togeth

  • No developer is forced to write open source code (Score:3, Insightful)

    by tarranp ( 676762 ) on Thursday August 21, 2003 @11:12PM (#6761719)
    Nobody is forced to write open source code. The developers are either people who write something voluntarily on their own initiative, or are doing it for hire for some other person or company,

    The people who do it on their own initiative obviously are getting some benefit, or they wouldn't expend the effort. The people doing it for hire are being reimbused for it by those who hired them.

    The beauty of open source software is that its creators are not the only ones who benefit from their efforts. Rather, everyone of us who use their products are enriched. Neither the developers, the distributors or the end users are harmed by the software development. Everybody involved is better off.

    If you view people using code released under an open source license as "exploiting the developers", you are welcome to use the traditional proprietary licensing schemes for your code. That's called freedom of choice.
  • Sure there are a lot of commercial apps for Linux. As I see it so what. Linux is still Open Source and there is nothing stopping OpenSource people to make their own versions of the software. Some people (Oh the Horror) actually want to sell the code that they put thousands of man hours in, and that is their choice. OpenSource is supposed to be about freedom and with freedom there will be people doing things that you may not want them to do with it, that is the consequence of being free. I see any new a
  • I don't see any problems with corporate influence on Linux in general. The key issue, however, is to be smart and careful about licenses and to keep the agendas and strategies of the corporate contributors in mind. Some companies are trying to push software with proprietary licenses onto free software platforms, other companies pick free software licenses that are not in the best interests of free software.

    Sun, for example, is making a big push for Sun Java-derived implementations on Linux, but large par

  • We want exploitation by companies! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by abradsn ( 542213 ) on Friday August 22, 2003 @12:11AM (#6762011) Homepage
    We want exploitation by companies! The more people that use our software the better off we will be!

  • Open Source, Closed Formats?! (Score:4, Funny)

    by rifter ( 147452 ) on Friday August 22, 2003 @03:52AM (#6762889) Homepage
    Wow, an article on the influence of business on open Source Projects which consists solely of videos in Quicktime which cannot be viewed on any open source platform or with any open source viewer. Maybe corporate influence is very very bad after all! :P

  • Had a problem with this at my company. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by NYTrojan ( 682560 ) on Friday August 22, 2003 @08:21AM (#6763766)
    My company needed to make use of GNU's Tar utility. We have a program that needed to pack and unpack tar files at will. To avoid packaging the software with tar.exe we wanted to see if we could integrate Tar into our software. The question was if we did this, would we just have to provide the altered tar code, or would it make the entire program open source. This is what I think they are talking about when they mention exploitation. I can see why this sort of activity would be frowned upon by the OSS community. A letter of inquiry to GNU received a rather interesting response. In a very long reply, we were told that they couldn't tell us whether or not we'd need to make everything open source or not since we were not the kind of people they were making software for. They could not spend their donars money letting us know if that was okay or not ( even though the reply took much longer than a simple 'yes it's okay' or 'no it's not' ) but if we were willing to pay them for their efforts they could provide an answer.

  • Corporate Influence harmless. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by crazyphilman ( 609923 ) on Friday August 22, 2003 @10:38AM (#6764803) Journal
    Here's my take on this; I'll admit up front that I'm not an expert, and these opinions are just opinions.

    First of all, there are loads of distros out there. So if one or two distros go really corporate, paying less attention to home users and hobbyists, who cares? Want intellectual freedom and a progressive stance? Use Slackware or Debian instead. You can download them for free. You might have to do a little more RTFM'ing, and have to learn how to build your own firewalls, etc, but isn't the acquisition of knowledge supposed to be good for you? Besides, a home-grown firewall tends to be a little tighter than the "one size fits all" approach taken by corporate providers.

    Then there's another thing to consider: corporate Linux providers are doing research and improving their products. Any changes they make to GPL'ed tools have to be released to the rest of us, so they're going to be contributing. Overall, this will be good for the community.

    Finally, the more Linux is adopted by Big Business(tm), the more likely it is we'll be able to use Linux both at home and at work. And, THAT is a Good Thing.

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