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Mozilla The Internet

Mozilla's Joy Of Naming 347

Posted by Hemos from the the-joy-neverends dept.
An anonymous reader writes "Thought the Firebird naming conflict was over? Think again! (If you thought, "What naming conflict?", go to the back of the class and read Slashdot's, previous coverage.) MozillaZine has got an exclusive interview with Christopher Blizzard, mozilla.org staff member, Red Hat employee and author of the Mozilla branding strategy. It's one the first official statements from mozilla.org (Mitchell Baker published a letter that she sent to the Firebird database project admins a few days ago). As well as the interview, MozillaZine also takes a look at some of the more recent media coverage of the conflict, which is overwealmingly biased in favour of the Firebird database project (who still haven't adequately explained how it was different when they picked the same name as the older Firebird BBS). Compare and contrast with MozillaZine's interview of Ann Harrison of the Firebird database project."
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Mozilla's Joy Of Naming

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  • "Sweet! FREE PUBLICITY!"

    I mean, not as popular as mysql, not as advanced as postgresql... they didn't have a whole lot going for them before this came up. :)
    • "Sweet! FREE PUBLICITY!"

      Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Ann Harrison explicitly say she was trying to milk this opportunity for free publicity?

    • Comment removed based on user account deletion
      • Wait, you're telling me there's also something called "FirebirdSQL" now? As well as the database package Firebird and Mozilla's unfortunately named Firebird?

        As far as I can tell from the (extremely convoluted) info in the links, the "Firebird Database Project" and "FirebirdSQL" are the same thing.
    • yeah, it's publicity. in fact, ann -did- say it was publicity: because they figured this had happened by accident, because, as you pointed out, they're not popular ... and no-one would be careful not to name their project 'firebird'.

      however, as to the postgresql part ... i'd like to see your qualification of that. i've come across talks by (of all people) microsoft, where interbase/firebird (same thing, except firebird is open-source, free, and not stinky) is listed right along with oracle, db2, sybase, etc. (and you won't find any mention of mysql or postgresql there.)

      interbase has been around for, what ... fifteen years? a little more? it's quite full-featured, growing constantly, and currently undergoing a C to C++ conversion so adding features will be even faster in the near future.

      if it hadn't been for this stink over naming, firebird would have stood a good chance of publicizing their milestone releases (1.5 and 2.0) through slashdot. in fact, there might have been a lot more people picking it up and saying "hey, cool!" ... but on slashdot, everyone uses a browser. and if they code ... they're quite likely to have just picked up "php and mysql" at their local bookstore, and never looked for a -real- database. (isn't it sad that, even as good as postgresql is, and -known-, people still favor mysql? geeks, of all people, should know when they see a hack-job.) so instead, from now on, with the slashdot crowd, firebird will be known as "that evil database project that tried to keep mozilla from using its name!" ...

      maybe interbase stands a chance (not really -- all the original coders who made interbase possible ... work on firebird now. you can thank ann and jim for the work that brought you a fully-capable database without the bloat of oracle.)

      and yes, i -am- proud to use firebird in a production environment. it's fast, it's solid, and it does everything (almost -- i've got a few feature requests in) i want it to do. check it out! (and call it whatever you like!)

  • bad for the community (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Ashish Kulkarni ( 454988 ) on Wednesday May 14, 2003 @02:50PM (#5956884) Homepage
    Such a conflict is bad for the image of the open source community. Sadly, it has reached the stage where no one can back down because of bruised egos...And hence it'll be settled (if ever) after a lot of shenanigans.
    • And hence it'll be settled (if ever) after a lot of shenanigans.

      Great, I'll get my broom!

    • Re:bad for the community (Score:5, Insightful)

      by smcn ( 87571 ) on Wednesday May 14, 2003 @03:08PM (#5957049)
      Huh? There's nothing to be settled, this should be a dead issue. As soon as the first version of "Mozilla Browser" is released people will forget that it's codenamed "Firebird". How many people refer to the current Mozilla suite as "SeaMonkey"?
      • How many people refer to the current Mozilla suite as "SeaMonkey"?

        Few. Certainly less than the number of people who refer to the Netscape 4.x browsers as "A hot, steaming pile of shit" . :p

    • shenanigans

      NOBODY would use that for a project name...

      Wait, I'm going to use it ;)

    • Actually, the FirebirdSQL could back down pretty easily now. They gained an enormous boost to name recognition simply by raising this issue in the first place -- before this all started they weren't nearly as well known as the "big" open source databases (MySQL and postgres). Now so much information has been posted on Slashdot and other news sites about this that pretty much any geek who knows how to use a database has probably heard of them. If they back down now, they keep the name recognition. They'v

  • Aren't people bored of this yet? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Trillan ( 597339 ) on Wednesday May 14, 2003 @02:51PM (#5956896) Homepage Journal

    I'm sure it is greatly interesting to those involved, but to me this is rapidly approaching tabloid material...

    Nothing's going to change. Nobody's going to back down. Further, it doesn't really matter.

  • Blizzard Entertainment charges Chris Blizzard (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 14, 2003 @02:53PM (#5956909)
    In a shocking turn of events, Blizzard Entertainment, maker of popular game franchises Warcraft, Starcraft and Diablo, is charging Christoper Blizzard with trademark and DMCA violations. "Mr. Blizzard and his family were not authorized to use that last name" said a Blizzard executive who wished to remain anonymous. "We're suggesting he change his name to Christopher Snow, or Christopher Storm, something that won't confuse people."

    • > maker of popular game franchises Warcraft, Starcraft and Diablo, is charging Christoper Blizzard with trademark and DMCA violations.

      I think a press release where Satan issued a cease-and-decist for defamation of character would have been funnier. I'm sure he would have no problem proving prior ownership. I suppose he could always arrange an IRS audit on Brandon Seipsteg or something. It would be more fun.

      • I think a press release where Satan issued a cease-and-decist for defamation of character would have been funnier. I'm sure he would have no problem proving prior ownership. I suppose he could always arrange an IRS audit on Brandon Seipsteg or something. It would be more fun.

        Actually, Blizzard sued Satan. The case comes up in July if parties can't settle out of court.

      • maker of popular game franchises Warcraft, Starcraft and Diablo, is charging Christoper Blizzard with trademark and DMCA violations.

        I think a press release where Satan issued a cease-and-decist for defamation of character would have been funnier.

        You think you're joking... but the Vin Diesel movie "A Man Apart" was entitled "Diablo" until Blizzard threatened legal action.
  • Is anyone else reminded of the radical group from "A life of brian", or is it just me?

  • Pffffft. (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Dthoma ( 593797 )
    They should name these browsers after progressive rock songs. That'd give them a lot of geek cred (in my mind anyway). Come on, what could be cooler than using a browser called "Echoes"?
    • First song that popped into my mind was "Stairway to Heaven", that'd be a cool name for an app (and/or a designer drug).

      Another cool one would be "Kashmir" (guess which band I like ;)

      Also Ummagumma would be unique and less likely to collide with another product/project.

  • Firebird - Mozilla Browser confusion (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Surak ( 18578 ) * <surakNO@SPAMmailblocks.com> on Wednesday May 14, 2003 @02:54PM (#5956928) Homepage Journal
    Isn't this just going to cause confusion? Many people currently refer to the browser component of the 'Mozilla Application Suite' as the 'Mozilla browser' and changing the name of Firebird to 'Mozilla Browser' will just confuse things even worse than they already are.

    People tend to think Mozilla='Mozilla Application Suite' and they tend to think of Phoenix/Firebird/Mozilla Browser/whatever-they're-calling-themselves-this-w eek as a separate application.

    I'm confused just talking about it.

    as
    • Isn't this just going to cause confusion?

      Of course it is! But we're not dealing with common sense here, we're dealing with egos.

      And egos and common sense are like blood and space ships.

      [/joke]
    • People tend to think Mozilla='Mozilla Application Suite'

      Are you sure? I've never heard of "Mozilla Application Suite", "Firebird" and never heard anyone actually say "Mozilla Browser". To me 'Mozilla' == 'The browser that other people call Netscape'.

      • Agreed, but that's why I put 'Mozilla Application Suite' in quotes...'Mozilla Application Suite' is *their* terminology for what most people call Mozilla, that is 'Navigator/Communicator without the AOL adverts and bloat and crap'

      • Re:Firebird - Mozilla Browser confusion (Score:4, Informative)

        by Doc Hopper ( 59070 ) on Wednesday May 14, 2003 @03:46PM (#5957389) Homepage Journal
        The quick sum-up on naming:
        • Until the 1.4 final release, the lightweight browser and mail components are referred to, respectively, as "Mozilla Firebird" and "Mozilla Thunderbird"
        • Post-1.4 release, the lightweight components will become the mainstream browser and mail components, referred to as "Mozilla Browser" and "Mozilla Mail".

        The gal getting all worked up about naming is kind of barking up the wrong tree. Yeah, that's the project's name for the time being. However, Firebird will fall out of regular use here within the next few months...
    • Why not Browzilla, Mailzilla, Chatzilla, etc?

      Totally strong branding, like OpenGL OpenML, OpenAL ( OK SGI lawyers sue me ) or DirectShow, DirectSound, DirectPlay, DirectInput, DirectFish.

    • Re:Firebird - Mozilla Browser confusion (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Medievalist ( 16032 ) on Wednesday May 14, 2003 @03:08PM (#5957051)
      I think you got it right, actually.

      As I understand it, Phoenix was just the browser heartwood split out of the Mozilla suite, and thus it really always was "the Mozilla Browser"; Netscape's "Navigator" component but without the AOL/Netscape bloat and advertising... sounds good, doesn't it?

      The Mozilla custom install in the current suite calls the browser piece navigator, incidentally (At least in 1.3.1 it does). But a phoenix/firebird install gives you an even leaner, faster Mozilla browser than a custom Mozilla install that includes only navigator.

      I applaud the Phoenix, er, Firebird, er, Mozilla browser team's initiative to properly modularize the web browsing code and chop out the unneeded IRC client, Email client, usenet agent, etc. etc. etc. all of which deserve their own software (that I can choose NOT to run!).

    • Re:Firebird - Mozilla Browser confusion (Score:5, Funny)

      by Jugalator ( 259273 ) on Wednesday May 14, 2003 @04:11PM (#5957682) Journal
      The layout engine was first called Raptor, but they later came up with the Gecko code name to include Raptor (that was later changed to NGLayout) and XPFE. Seamonkey is the code name of the Mozilla Application Suite that includes the NGLayout/Gecko engine and is built using the XPCOM architecture. A new project was later started to streamline the browser component: The code name was Phoenix that was changed to Firebird that was clarified to really be Mozilla Firebird that was later simply changed to be Mozilla Browser. Unless you meant the codename. That's Firedbird. Or perhaps it's Mozilla Firebird. Now, the Mozilla Team also started the Minotaur... Sorry, the Thunderbird project. But that's just its fancy code name, chosen to match Firebird. Both has bird and are cars. Pretty nifty, eh. Oh, and it's really called Mozilla Mail. I mean... The actual product name.

  • Cheese and rice (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 14, 2003 @02:54PM (#5956929)
    God it's disgusting how far we've devolved into this stupid little legalistic society where everybody is suing everybody else for the dumbest reasons. Oh yeah, like I'm going to confuse a Web browser with some old crappy database that nobody ever uses or an ugly-looking monstrosity Pontiac targeted at middle-aged bald men who want a car that "looks fast." Hello. It's just a name. Who cares?

    You know, if people would put as much effort into technological innovation and development as they do into suing each other, who knows how far along technology might be right now? We're far too infatuated with lawsuits and lawyers and multi-million dollar settlements and not focused on actually making things work. Sad, really.

    • Re:Cheese and rice (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Timesprout ( 579035 )
      Actually its not just a name. For many companies its a brand which they invest heavily in to create and promote. For many its not something they are going to let go lightly

    • Re:Cheese and rice (Score:2, Insightful)

      by ratamacue ( 593855 )
      it's disgusting how far we've devolved into this stupid little legalistic society where everybody is suing everybody else for the dumbest reasons

      I agree completely. Want to know what's responsible for the transformation? It's not the lawyers. It's not the corporations. And it sure as hell ain't "the people".

      The reason why society has widely adopted back-stabbing as the road to success -- as opposed to personal responsibility and honest achievement -- is the nanny state.

      In general, the bigger and more

      • Re:Cheese and rice (Score:3, Insightful)

        by GlassHeart ( 579618 )
        The reason why society has widely adopted back-stabbing as the road to success -- as opposed to personal responsibility and honest achievement -- is the nanny state.

        I disagree. Many other countries have even "bigger" governments, yet America's litigious culture is nearly unique. I think the problem is not that people sue, but that plaintiffs are awarded ridiculous sums that are disproportionate to their losses. This is virtually an encouragement to gamble in the legal system.

        In my ideal world, when y

      • It's a win-win situation for those in power (government), and for the successful backstabbers as well, and of course for the lawyers. But what about those who just want to live their lives in peace, achieving through honest means, accepting total responsibility for themselves -- and ONLY themselves? We're screwed.

        Yes, but without that government keeping the backstabbers in check, you'd be ever more screwed. All this stuff about "personal responsibility" sounds great until you realize that "backstabbers"

  • Let google decide! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by girish ( 19258 ) <girish+slashdot.patangay@com> on Wednesday May 14, 2003 @02:55PM (#5956938) Homepage
    I think they should just let google decide:

    Searched the web for firebird +database. Results 1 - 10 of about 35,000. Search took 0.06 seconds.

    Searched the web for firebird +mozilla. Results 1 - 10 of about 9,380. Search took 0.11 seconds.

  • I've got a solution (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    The Firebird database people should rename their project Phoenix.

  • Heres an Idea (Score:5, Insightful)

    by KingKire64 ( 321470 ) on Wednesday May 14, 2003 @02:56PM (#5956946) Homepage Journal
    Since these name (Firebird, Thunderbird, etc.) are only codenames from what i understand, why not drop the codenames and use the names that the final product is going to go buy: Mozilla Browser project and Mozilla Email project. Its impossible to recomend anyone to use a great product if the name changes twice a month!

    My 2 cents

    • one word: bugzilla (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Vitriolix ( 660279 )
      there needs to be clear distinctions in bugzilla between the current mozilla browser and the future Mozilla Browser... hence the name Firebird (equevielent to Seamonkey now)

    • Re:Heres an Idea (Score:3, Insightful)

      by billnapier ( 33763 )

      why not drop the codenames and use the names that the final product is going to go buy

      Codenames are very important. Especially when you have a marketing department that can't make up its mind on what to call things. It will be one thing one week and another thing the next week. And all the time the developers will still be calling it by its code name.

      And you can't call it by release number because what the release number is isn't always decided until right before it ships (we have to jump to version

    • Well for one because you can't buy Mozilla.

  • Soon to be over (Score:5, Informative)

    by ergonal ( 609484 ) on Wednesday May 14, 2003 @02:57PM (#5956956)
    Looking at the email sent to the firebird db guys, it seems the mozilla team are going to change firebird's name to "Mozilla Browser" in the next release cycle (1.5), so hopefully the whole hype of this saga will come to a close in a few months:

    Nevertheless, we do intend to change the name so that the browser now known as "Mozilla Firebird Browser" becomes the "Mozilla Browser."

    • Over? Hold your horses! It's not over yet.

      Soon I am going to register on Sourforge, Savannah and other project hosting sites several new projects:

      • Mozilla Web server based on fork of newcoming Zope-3;
      • Mozilla Linux distro based on mix of Gentoo and ArchLinux;
      • Mozilla language, Haskell in a syntax of Lisp's S-exps;
      • and finally - Mozilla database based on fork of Firebird Database, just for fun :)

      I am very comfortable that using such good and self-expressive name as Mozilla I can quickly gather very good

    • They are not changing the name. When it is ready to be integrated into the main Mozilla product it will replace Seamonkey. Seamonkey is the codename for the current browser component. It is officially refered to as "Mozilla Browser" but that does not mean that it was renamed from Seamonkey to Mozilla Browser, just as Firebird is not going to be renamed from Firebird to Mozilla Browser.

  • Ah hell.... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Jack William Bell ( 84469 ) on Wednesday May 14, 2003 @02:58PM (#5956970) Homepage Journal
    Just call it 'Mozilla 2.0' and call it good.

    There's no rule that says you have to add features with every release.

    • ... and this is even a better way to reach their goal. To quote Mitchell Baker:

      Our plan to rename Mozilla Firebird Browser to Mozilla Browser requires us to eradicate use of "browser" in connection with the browsing functionality in the Mozilla Application Suite.

      Mozilla 2.0, completely new and improved - not what you once knew as Mozilla 1.4 or whatever.

      z

  • Names. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Schezar ( 249629 ) on Wednesday May 14, 2003 @03:01PM (#5956996) Homepage Journal
    At my college, RIT, there have been changes to the names of things in the recent past. "Physical Plant," our janitorial service, became "FMS." A bunch of apartments called "Capstones" are now called "University Commons."

    You know what? Everyone calls them "Physical Plant" and "Capstone."

    Everyone I know still calls it "Phoenix." I still do.
    • Capstone is dying out, since those of us that lived there when they first opened are pretty much gone.

      But, yeah, Physical Plant employs janitors. Facilities Management (FMS) employs Sanitation Engineers. In the end, they both end up taking out the trash.
      • True, but I've noticed an interesting phenomenon.

        I heard UC from the school itself. I met some older students who called it Capstone. I started calling it Capstone. Now, I'm the "older student," and I'm finding that the younger RITers I know and interact with call it Capstone because I call it Capstone, the same reason I called it Capstone in the first place.

        Thus, there will likely always be "lines" of students who call it Capstone, since they tend to emulate their (seemingly) cooler elders.

  • An idea (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Kyn ( 539206 )
    Why doesn't Mozilla just codename it Project Trogdor? Yeah, it's more dragon-y than phoenix-y, but it's also hella cool.

    And I'm doubting that the Brothers Chaps would say no if the Mozilla people asked them nicely. More publicity both ways.

    "And all was laid to burnination..."

  • Easy name change. (Score:5, Funny)

    by twocents ( 310492 ) on Wednesday May 14, 2003 @03:02PM (#5957000)
    Mozilla should just use 'Firebird Trans Am' instead.
    Then we would all think of Burt Reynolds when searching our favorite web pages. And, it would go well next to my Camino.

  • To further confuse the issue, Firebird is a model (or line?) of communications test equipment (BER analyzers/impairment simulators, etc.)

    Not to mention a made-to-be-wrecked car from GM. ;

  • Thoughts (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Otter ( 3800 ) on Wednesday May 14, 2003 @03:03PM (#5957008) Journal
    MozillaZine also takes a look at some of the more recent media coverage of the conflict, which is overwealmingly biased in favour of the Firebird database project

    You know, one hears all sorts of complaints about media bias -- too leftist, too rightist -- but I never thought I'd hear "overwealmingly [sic] biased in favor of Firebird".

    At any rate, how hard is it to pick a new freaking name? Like there's a shortage of mystical animals? Start up a game of Angband and charge downwards until you hit a good-sounding creature. I'd suggest a high-elf warrior for maximimum speed of descent. Just watch out for hounds, and that annoying family of dwarves that resists everything and touches to disenchant!

    • That's not a bad idea. Let's see, what mystical creatures come to mind: Centaur, Gorgon, Harpy, Minotaur, Cyclops, Hellhound, Hydra, Dragon, Basilisk, Kraken...

      Hmm. I think Titan could be a decent name. I would have no qualms about using the Titan browser.

    • Dear Namer (Score:2, Funny)

      by Letter ( 634816 )
      Dear Namer,

      Here are my suggestions to replace "Firebird":

      Trojan
      Sheik
      LifeStyles
      Durex
      Kameleon
      Conf ide
      Contempo
      Kimono
      Reality
      Magnum

      Stay protected,
      Rupert

  • use nonsense names (Score:5, Insightful)

    by MikeFM ( 12491 ) on Wednesday May 14, 2003 @03:08PM (#5957047) Homepage Journal
    My general approach when looking for a name is to Google all possibilities until I find one that returns 0 hits. If it isn't in Google then it doesn't exist - so is safe to use. Until I wrote this message 'Phyerburd' would have been an example. It's also interesting in that then any time you searh for that word you can be pretty sure that most the hits in Google relate to your use of the word. An easy indicator to watch your growth by.

  • Cats or Cars? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by ink ( 4325 )
    Seeing that the Chimera project (Mozilla/Cocoa for OSX) had to change it's name [mozilla.org] to "Camino"; I would hazzard a guess that the Mozilla team is targeting gas-guzzling sports cars for new monikers, rather than fowl. Maybe they should name the next version of Mozilla Corvette?

  • Here's what the cow thinks! (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    _________________
    / Mozilla's shit! \
    \ Use Konqueror! /
    -----------------
    \ ^__^
    \ (oo)\_______
    (__)\ )\/\
    ||----w |
    || ||

  • How's this for an adequate explanation? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by wuice ( 71668 ) on Wednesday May 14, 2003 @03:14PM (#5957106) Homepage
    When the Firebird database chose the name for its project, the people from the similarly named Firebird BBS did not complain or object.

    When the Firebird browser project took its name, people from the Firebird database project did complain. Argue the case either way, but that is the difference. It's not rocket science.

  • Argumentum ad hominem, eh? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Scotch Game ( 442068 ) on Wednesday May 14, 2003 @03:14PM (#5957108)

    Some people have accused mozilla.org of having an arrogant and dismissive attitude towards the Firebird database community. What is your response to these allegations?

    That it's an excellent example of argumentum ad hominem.

    Err ... That isn't the same thing as denying that you've been arrogant and dismissive, Mr. Blizzard. Only that, if you have, it's not relevant to the argument. So ... is that it? You've been arrogant and dismissive but so what, that's not the point? Your answer seems to have confirmed that allegation, if not only by its logical content, then also by its curt nature.

  • phoenix/firebird/whatever = "the web broswer"
    email client = "the email client"
    and so on ....

    It will solve all the problems and then they need to take the attitude of telling everyone else to bugger off and be rude about it.

    There's one thing about being a nice guy... but when things get plain silly, you need to flip the other person/group the bird and put them on /ignore.
    • Which was the three-headed fire-breathing dragon thing that is almost-but-not-quite exactly unlike a firebird or phoenix, but it would be more in keeping with the 'zilla naming scheme, and it sounds cool!

      For the rubber-monster challenged, here's a picure [sonypictures.com] for your reference and edification.

  • Generic Names (Score:3, Insightful)

    by LamerX ( 164968 ) on Wednesday May 14, 2003 @03:23PM (#5957183) Journal
    Okay, Firebird is such a generic name. When are people going to just get with some common sense and realize that with a limited number of words in any language, some stuff is going to get reused. Especially things that are common, like Fire and Bird. When are people just going to get over it and realize that trademarks can be as bad as patents and copyright?
  • Please, someone correct me if I am wrong.

    First Mozilla.org changed the name from Phoenix to Firebird because Phoenix BIOS was annoyed (afraid someone could mistakenly buy a web browser instead of a BIOS chip).

    Now, they realized that the name was already in use by another open source project but they have no intention to get back.

    Is this correct ?
    • No, Phoenix BIOS is developing, or has developed (not quite sure) a browser. It will reside in the BIOS in case your system dies and you need to download drivers or do whatever, you will be able to do it via the BIOS. Anyways, due to that, there was a legitimate reason to change the name. It's pretty easy to confuse two browsers with the exact same name. As far as confusing a browser with a database, if you do that then I don't think you deserve to use either heh.
    • First Mozilla.org changed the name from Phoenix to Firebird because Phoenix BIOS was annoyed (afraid someone could mistakenly buy a web browser instead of a BIOS chip).

      Now, they realized that the name was already in use by another open source project but they have no intention to get back.

      Phoenix BIOS actually created a web browser - thus, Phoenix Browser was a legitimate gripe by the Phoenix BIOS folks. There would have been confusion, followed by a lawsuit that Mozilla would lose.

      Firebird was used by
  • -Are you the Judean People's Front?

    -FUCK OFF! ...We're the People's Front of Judea!

    Seriously though...who cares? No one will ever know the different except Slashdot readers and open source activists. No one else will ever hear of these "codenames." They will still call Phoenix/Firebird/Whateverthefuck - Mozilla.
  • http://www.annapmicro.com/firebird_pci.html

  • Shame (Score:2, Interesting)

    by .com b4 .storm ( 581701 )
    I have lost a lot of respect for the Mozilla leadership because of this dispute. The database folks had the name first, and it's not as if picking another name will cause "branding" issues... 99% of users don't call it "Mozilla Firebird" and so nobody will care if another name is picked. It's not like Mozilla.org invested in a million-dollar ad campaign with the name Firebird.

    The mature thing to do would be for the Mozilla folks to back off, and pick another name. The legalities of it are largely irrelevan

    • Re:Shame (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Down8 ( 223459 )
      Lost respect for Mozilla's leadership?! I didn't see mozilla.org leading a spam campaign.

      99% of users don't call it "Mozilla Firebird"

      Exactly, just like they don't call it Mozilla SeaMonkey, so the db people shouldn't trip. In fact, if they hadn't started this mess (yes, they started it), the Firebird name would have barely seen the light of day.

      It's not like Mozilla.org invested in a million-dollar ad campaign with the name Firebird.

      And neither did FirebirdSQL, so that is not only a non-sequito
  • "Nomad". You know, a wanderer. No, wait that's taken.

    "FetchIt". As in go get it. Damn that's taken too.

    "Carnivore". That's never had any bad press. And the icon looks like something out of Jurassic Park anyway.

    "Charlie". Everybody knows a guy named Charlie, and they're usually good guys. Oh, wait, that damn conflict a few decades ago. Forget it.

  • A point that has been missed so far (Score:3, Funny)

    by Angst Badger ( 8636 ) on Wednesday May 14, 2003 @03:58PM (#5957529)
    You know, I hate to be the one to point this out, but "Firebird" is a damn stupid name for either a browser or a database, especially considering the implication that both products rose from the ashes of other products that were abandoned by their original developers when they ceased to be competitive.

    As a database name, it's especially stupid. What's the phoenix symbolism here? "Hey, try our database! All your data will crash and burn periodically, but you'll be able to recover it." C'mon, even freaking IBM can come up with better marketing themes. At least when you hear the name of their product, DB2, you know it's a database.

    The same argument could be applied to the browser, though. Or indeed to most browsers. If you're not already aware of the product, what do names like Firebird, Mozilla, and Opera mean to you? Nothing. Look at MS product names: Internet Explorer, Word, Publisher, Flight Simulator. Bigod, the product name tells you what the product is. (Of course, on the other hand, you have Excel, Access, and Bob.)

    Instead of squabbling over an uninformative name that has an uninspiring thudding cadence and making the Open Source world look like a bunch of petty jerks, how about the Firebird people and the other Firebird people go back to their corners and choose new names as if their choice of names actually matters.

  • Comment removed (Score:3, Informative)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Wednesday May 14, 2003 @03:59PM (#5957549)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • I just don't get this (Score:5, Interesting)

    by CleverNickName ( 129189 ) * <wil@wil[ ]aton.net ['whe' in gap]> on Wednesday May 14, 2003 @04:03PM (#5957593) Homepage Journal
    Okay.

    I still don't understand this.

    Why is this such a big deal? There can't be a browser and a database with the same name?

    Is this some sort of intellectual property argument? Doesn't this sort of go against the "spirit" of the OS community?

    • Re:I just don't get this (Score:5, Insightful)

      by His name cannot be s ( 16831 ) on Wednesday May 14, 2003 @04:39PM (#5957941) Journal
      No kidding. sheesh.

      It's not like one dilutes the other. They are not competing products. Even remotely. One does not affect the other.

      Heck, Just plugging in Firebird on Google, the top 10 hits are :

      3- related to Firebird Database
      1- Related to the Pontiac Firebird (!)
      2- Firebird Raceway
      1- book company
      1- design company
      1- gem company
      1- arts & music.

      Hey, the browser didn't even make top 10!

      So, maybe they(Database boneheads) should go after the racetrack, pontiac, the book company, design company, gem company, and the a&m company too.

      This is just so silly.

  • Can you give this a rest so they can sort it out? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ManxStef ( 469602 ) on Wednesday May 14, 2003 @04:53PM (#5958067) Homepage
    Oh my God, I can't believe this is still being posted to Slashdot, can people not see how detrimental posting articles like this is to the resolution of this issue on both sides?

    Condensed version of events:
    • Mozilla is forced to change the name of their Phoenix browser due to threat of litigation from Phoenix BIOS corp.
    • Mozilla devs decide amongst themselves, with very little (if any) public consultation, to change the name to Firebird. They ARE aware of the Firebird database project, but collectively (between about ten to twenty of them) "can't see any naming conflict", and can't be arsed to even e-mail any of the Firebird database project admins to ask if it'd piss them off.
    • Asa announces on MozillaZine that Mozilla's changed its name to Firebird(TM), and this is final, full stop, quit your whining bitches, we've asked our lawyers and they say it's fine.
    • Public dismay from the Firebird database admins, developers and users, who feel that the Mozilla organisation has just "pissed on their chips", and insulted them by taking their name (read Ann Harrison's interview and you may understand why they acted the way they did, wrong as it was) - regardless of whether they actually have a claim to trademark "Firebird" or not.
    • Firebird database admins post a "rallying call" on their website, along with far too many Mozilla developer e-mail addresses. Stupid move.
    • Firebird DB devs and users e-mail these addresses, some maybe with the misguided opinion that this'll help, followed by a whole deluge of idiots and trolls (who probably don't use either projects' software) who start mailbombing these addresses.
    • Story gets posted to Slashdot (with author bias towards Mozilla as the author probably likes Moz/Phoenix but hasn't heard of Firebird), fanning the flames further and resulting in tons more mailbombing to both sides.
    • Both sides get really pissed off with each other due to the mailbombings. Mozilla ppl dig their heels in because of ridiculous amounts of spam they've been getting, and the Firebird database people are taken aback by the scale of the response and the (really) stupid mistake of posting all the Moz team's addresses, while still feeling helpless that a big project's just stomped on them pretty firmly.
    • MozillaZine continue their biased reporting (fair enough, they are MOZILLAZine after all!), and Moz team members "shut the f*ck up" posts in response to any wails of dismay forum posts from Firebird DB admins make sure that this continues for weeks. Lots of users without any knowledge of either project chip in with tons of stupid names, lots of IANAL but I'm with whichever side I'm biased towards, even more "but Firebird stole it from the Firebird car so they can STFU" posts, plenty of "not going to be confusing" and "Mozilla you b*st*rds, give the name back - if Microsoft did this we'd all go round and kick them in the nuts!" and general ranting ensues.
    • Several more online news sites post up stories, practically all with extreme bias one way or the other.
    • MozillaZine's forums get hammered, MySQL falls over - ironic ;) Their bandwith bills have gone sky-high so the forums stay down. Lots of complaints from MozillaZine people blaming this on the Firebird database camp, yet more friction.
    • A non-biased mediator (Jonathan Walther, a contributor to Debian) gets briefly involved to try and find some common ground between the warring parties, resulting in a very frank and honest interview with Ann Harrison posted up on MozillaZine. Other than this Jonathan does really play much of a part, but he makes for a good character to slot into any news reporting that goes on. More ranting on both sides.
    • LOTS more ranting on both sides.
    • Mozilla.org responds by posting the Mozilla Firebird Branding Strategy, which clarifies that the new name is "Mozilla Firebird" NOT "Firebird(TM)", and that it's just a codename like SeaMonkey is a codename

  • A Lesson Learned (Score:3, Insightful)

    by suwain_2 ( 260792 ) on Wednesday May 14, 2003 @05:03PM (#5958180) Journal
    I think this should be a lesson for those releasing projects in the future. It used to be that a search for "Phoenix" on Google would turn up the Phoenix webpage as its first match. "Firebird" matches all sorts of stuff, but (last I checked), none of them were the web browser. Over time, this will hopefully change, but the point is that name changes after a project gets popular are a bad thing.

    Obviously there wasn't much choice when PhoenixBIOS's lawyers got involved, but I really wish people could see that not everything in the world needs a unique name. When someone introduces themselves as Matt, I don't get confused and refuse to talk to them because of a name conflict. (Since it's also my name.) Similarly, if asked to trim the bushes, I don't show up at the White House with hedge trimmers.

    Similarly, if someone asks "What browser do you use?", and I reply "Phoenix," they're not going to get confused and think I'm talking about my BIOS. (Nor will they think I've captured a bird and am using it.)

    Again, I realize that the developers in this case really had no choice, but I think it's pretty sad when lawyers decide the people don't know the difference between a bird, a web browser, and a database.

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