Declaring The Death of Metatags 322
theduck writes "Andrew Goodman of Traffick.com pleaded for someone to announce the end of metatags (at least with respect to trying to skeeve good search engine ranking). and Danny Sullivan, Editor of The SearchEngineReport obliged. Personally, I've resisted using them for years, but convincing clients that they're not worth the effort has always been difficult. Does anyone (except porn sites) actually use them anymore?"
sure, i do. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:sure, i do. (Score:4, Funny)
Most folk looking for that probably also try "go to hell" in google (try it, it's fun, but don't forget to include the quotes).
Re:sure, i do. (Score:2, Informative)
Re:sure, i do. (Score:2)
Re:sure, i do. / Google easter eggs... (Score:2, Informative)
http://www.google.com/intl/xx-bork/ [google.com]
http://www.google.com/intl/xx-elmer/ [google.com]
http://www.google.com/intl/xx-piglatin/ [google.com]
http://www.google.com/intl/xx-hacker/ [google.com]
Re:sure, i do. (Score:2)
Nice sig (Score:2)
Lovely source of ambiguity, the English language. This could mean you expect to be banished for your views, or that you expect modern society to banish (or that they did banish) Socrates for his views (it merely you expect no less... no less than what? Socrates being banished for his views....)
redirects/refreshes? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:redirects/refreshes? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:redirects/refreshes? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:redirects/refreshes? (Score:2)
If your server supports PHP, you can redirect people by sending them Location: headers.
http://www.php.net/manual/en/function.header.ph
Re:redirects/refreshes? (Score:2)
You could use PHP, perl, C, a shell script...even postscript if you were feeling perverse enough.
Re:redirects/refreshes? (Score:2)
Refresh is evil (Score:2)
Are there any legitimate uses of refresh?
Re:Refresh is evil (Score:3, Informative)
Stock updates, auction standings, currency rate monitoring, remote alarms, ASCII football, slashdot karma ratings, etc.
Re:Refresh is evil (Score:2)
One other good use of refresh is when performing a long transaction to display a "please wait" type screen that updates the user as to progress.
Re:Refresh is evil (Score:2)
Re:redirects/refreshes? (Score:5, Insightful)
Which is one of the things they are there for.
META was never intended to be the primary key for search engines. The idea that search engines should believe a page with a billion Meta tags is pretty wierd.
The purpose of Meta was to allow people to add their own search terms to a document for their own convenience. That use is not invalidated just because Google and Co can't find a way to use that information any more than the existence of spam does not invalidate the idea of email.
redirects/refreshes still work (Score:2)
Re:redirects/refreshes? (Score:5, Insightful)
Read the article. It is only talking about keyword meta tags. There are lots of other types of meta tags. The Slashdot title is misleading.
Meta tags aren't so useful (Score:4, Funny)
sex dick pussy vagina cum cumbath ass fuck britney spears orgasm
Re:Meta tags aren't so useful (Score:3, Funny)
Word stuffing sometimes seems to backfire. Once I actually went to explicity search for "pussy", but got some stupid discount cat pet food spam-site instead. The search engine probably had to ignore most of them because there were too many (too many words, not pussies).
Re:Meta tags aren't so useful (Score:5, Funny)
Bars tend to be better than search engines for that sort of thing.
Re:Meta tags aren't so useful (Score:3, Insightful)
The meta tags could be useful again, if there were some limitations. Say, perhaps, we were limited to 5 description tags, and as an industry standard, the remainder were ignored. Supposing a web search categorized your site based on these five tag descriptions...webmasters would have to get far more picky about what they stuff into their tags.
Re:Meta tags aren't so useful (Score:2)
Yes indeed. Or have some sort of logarithmic scale where the "power" of one of your tags decreases as the total number of description tags the document has increases. So if you searched for "sex", you'd get a document with just a "sex" tag ranked higher than one with "sex" and "beer" tags. I considered writing a test search engine like this, but then Google came along and hijacking searches became very difficult anyway.
Re:Meta tags aren't so useful (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Meta tags aren't so useful (Score:2)
Suddenly I'm reminded of south park the movie. cock, shit, fuck and cunt were just the warm ups, the only way Cartman saved the world and killed saddam hussein was with the ultimate of ultimate words
"Barbara Streisand!"
Of course! (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Of course! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Of course! (Score:2, Insightful)
positive (mostly affected by bullshitting really well)
Re:Of course! (Score:2)
So yeah you check for "free porn" and he shows up as number 6. Our preceptions of him don't affect that at all unless somone mods him into negative karma.
Uhh... (Score:2)
They're used... (Score:2, Interesting)
Much like security, I think this is the kind of thing that hackers and tinkerers will always find a way to exploit. The question is who can stay ahead in the race?
Re:They're used... (Score:2)
So which is it? They have "nothing to do with" Google bombing, or they "do help"? You've managed to contradict yourself in under four sentences. Congratulations.
Re:They're used... (Score:2)
Google bombing is a concerted effort by a number of sites to increase the ranking of a desired page for specified search terms. Meta tags "help" in that process, as you put it. They are related.
Suggested meta tags (Score:5, Funny)
<meta name="will_be_shutdown_by_the_riaa" value="">
<meta name="contains_drm_technology" value="">
<meta name="capable_of_withstanding_slashdot_effect" value="">
<meta name="viewable_with_browser_other_than_IE" value="">
<meta name="uses_extremely_irritating_blink_tag" value="">
<meta name="requires_irritating_to_install_plugin" value="">
Re:Suggested meta tags (Score:2)
Gone off the deep end. (Score:3, Insightful)
Of course. (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Of course. (Score:2, Informative)
for others:
http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/
Still valuable on intranets (Score:3, Insightful)
Intranet sites (Score:2, Insightful)
For example if have an intranet site with thousands of ducments about various hardware compements. All of the hardware has a part number and all documents pertaining to that hardware have the part number in the metatags.
stress and time (Score:2, Troll)
what about the w3c ? (Score:4, Informative)
<META http-equiv="Content-Type" Content="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
But I guess that slashcode is not the w3c 's best friend [w3.org]
they still serve a useful purpose to me, the user (Score:2)
not all meta tags (Score:4, Informative)
the description tag is still used to display a blurb about your site in many search engines.
and then there's the always-fun meta refresh tag.
Re:not all meta tags (Score:2)
- Robin
At the bottom of the page.. sigh.. (Score:4, Funny)
Special Offer: Are you targeting the right keywords?
How do you know if people are searching on your keywords? Use WordTracker, and you'll get inside information on what people are really searching for. With this top secret information, you can optimize your site the right way the first time and see immediate results!
This was the ad at the bottom of the page.. Ironic, no? Maybe even a little hypocritical? Sigh..
No discussion on Meta Tags is complete without... (Score:5, Informative)
Once for redirects... Still for Smart Tags (Score:4, Informative)
That said there is one meta tag that we all need:
<meta name="MSSmartTagsPreventParsing" content="true"
Re:Once for redirects... Still for Smart Tags (Score:2)
Re:Once for redirects... Still for Smart Tags (Score:2)
You're lucky that internet explorer allows your mozilla-reccomendation to be displayed, let alone allows you to link to mozilla.org.
Sad but true.
Intranet/Site Search... (Score:2)
Basically what I'm saying is Meta-tags are only useful if they have actual relevance, and really are only useful for companies that are trying to design their own intranet and sitelevel extranet search engines.
Metatags still useful (Score:5, Insightful)
Metatags are still useful, just less so on the public internet. Like all information retrieved from the public internet, metatag keyword and description information must be considered suspect. It's useless for search engines that index arbitrary pages. So what good is metatag information? At the very least, local site searching. If you add a simple search engine to your web site, the keyword and description information is very likely to be valid (after all, it's your site). It's also useful for external sites that might index you specifically. For example, when Google [google.com] decides to index the University of Wisconsin at Madison web sites [google.com], the metadata information isn't perfect, but relatively trustworthy.
I also wish that Google would show the page's metatag description in addition to the text in the displayed page. Sure, you need to also show the displayed page matches to help quickly identify liars, but Google could easily show the description as well. For many sites the description is an excellent summary useful for filtering out bad hits.
Re:Metatags still useful (Score:3, Informative)
Uh Google already shows the meta description in their search results.
Re:Metatags still useful (Score:2)
My bad... When Google shows the description for a page, they use the description from Open Directory (which is arguably more reliable than the meta tags).
Hell yes (Score:4, Interesting)
Some of them are pretty much mandatory, like <meta NAME="MSSmartTagsPreventParsing" CONTENT="true"> - I don't want M$ fucking up [slashdot.org] my pages (they don't help right now, but they don't hurt in the future, and I keep the meta tag in a template). I also usually rate sites with PICS [icra.org], so I use their tag.
I also really enjoy when a site author or designer (hopefully with the client's full knowledge) credits him/herself with a meta tag. It's a nice, inconspicuous way to do it, 'specially if the client doesn't want to put a visible credit in the UI.
So yeah, meta tags as search engine spam have been dead for a while, but they have many other uses.
Re:Hell yes (Score:4, Informative)
You should really use <LINK> tags for this purpose. For example:
<link rel="Author" href="authors-page.html" type="text/html">
That way, you get a whole page!
does anyone still use meta-tags? (Score:2)
Cynic? (Score:2)
The Onion does. (Score:4, Funny)
But then I don't know where exactly the would be expecting to land...
Legitimate uses for Keywords meta tag (Score:3, Insightful)
Without keywords tag, you are left with e.g. this solution [useit.com] (scroll down to the bottom of the page). Not pretty, but search-engine compliant, huh?
Perhaps a better way would be to index these tags with low priority, as some search engines still do. This way, the keywords would only matter if there aren't many other pages with them (misspellings and rare terms), or in conjunction with visible text (variants and attributes). Well, a search engine can check misspelling of common words, but not rare terms and proper names. Both ways, the tags would be hard to abuse while useful in certain searches.
The laziness is working against this (why bother with something which is not visible on the page?), but without meta tags the Web is becoming dummier, in a way. Hope the search engines will master technology to replace them, but it's not quite there yet!
Re:Legitimate uses for Keywords meta tag (Score:2)
Sometimes people do something similar using white text or text the same color as the background.
BTW, why did the "King of Usability" put a boat-load of white space at the bottom? That will just confuse people who scroll down. He comes off looking like a hypocrite.
Re:Legitimate uses for Keywords meta tag (Score:2)
NewsWatcher, a MacOS Usenet reader did that. The idea was this: when you are reading text, and scroll down to the next screen of text, it's best if you know that you want to begin reading from the top of the screen. You do not have to hunt around for where you left off.
However, if the window stops at the end of the text, the last screen of text will typically require you to look for where you left off reading somewhere in the middle.
If the program can display a variable amount of blank space at the bottom of the screen so that the line you want to continue from is pinned to the top, then the problem is solved.
(this is vaguely akin to how in books there will be white space left on a page if it isn't completely taken up by text)
BBEdit _tried_ to do something similar, but fucked it up because they always put a fixed amount of white space in, and that turned out to just be annoying. The white space should be variable, and be resized constantly depending on how much is needed.
Re:Legitimate uses for Keywords meta tag (Score:2)
What about text that is the same color as the background, but not a white background? (For example, inside a navigation bar.) Yes, you can try to program around such in search engines, but it just becomes a cat-and-mouse game being that there are complicated ways to set background and text colors.
meta name="Description" content="stuff" (Score:2)
engines take the description meta tag
and list it next to the search results.
dogpile for one does this
Synonyms (Score:5, Interesting)
For example, a webpage might be about "OOP Criticism". However, searchers may not think to use the word "criticism", and instead look for "OOP complaints", "OOP skeptics", etc.
"OOP criticism" and "OOP skepticism" are pretty closely related. But text indexing or link indexing probably would not be able to make the connection.
Thus, they have legit uses IMO. Sure, they are abused, just like any other technology, including word indexing an link tracing.
A search engine should use *multiple* approaches IMO. Better yet, allow one to select the weights of each one for a given search. Have drop-down boxes with numbers from 0 to 9 on which to select the weightings given to links, text, and metatags.
Uh, are they only used for search engines? (Score:3, Interesting)
I guess if the only value you see to these tags is as a way to manipulate the search engine results, then yeah, maybe a case could be made to do away with them. But meta tags can be used for a whole lot more -- other people mentioned using them to refresh or redirect pages, but there are other goodies too. For example, I encourage my developers to drop this onto each page: "name='developer' content='Employee Name'" -- it's an ego stroke for developers to be able to show that off to their friends. Also, the copyright can be put into a meta tag. Why? Because it isn't visual, so all the clueless newbies who copy the site with a GUI tool will fail to remove that tag. We catch a few people that way, although only the most stupid.
For a while, at Borland, I had a pretty low-end (but working) content-management system, where I put an expiration date into a meta tag along with an author name, and then had a Perl script that flagged any out of date file and emailed the author. This was brute-force Perl recursing through the htdocs folder and reading in each file, so it wasn't database-backed, but in 1995 my boss thought it was hot. Nowadays there are better ways to do most everything, and meta tags are not required for much, but they are still a very useful option, and allow for some creativity -- regardless of search engines.
Images described by using the "keywords" meta tag (Score:4, Interesting)
I publish a photo gallery and have relied upon keywords to describe what's pictured but not necessarily mentioned in a photo's caption. This appears to work with Google from what I can tell. The same keywords are used by my site's internal search engine, so I have to think of and store them anyway. I would be happy to change if there's a better way.
Re:Images described by using the "keywords" meta t (Score:4, Informative)
Googlebombing works better (Score:2, Interesting)
I actually managed to pull off a wholey unplanned yet quite effective googlebomb in the last few months. A side project of mine, Quizilla [quizilla.com], has ome feature where it give you HTML coede to past into your weblog. Well, since Quizilla is a free service , I put an advetising string in that HTML, "brought to you by Quizilla", with a link to the site.
Well, through some circumstances that got really popular really quick and people were pasting a lot og this HTML into their pages.. and what happened when Google indexed all those pages?
Instant Googlebomb.
I'm kinda sad I wasn't selling anything, or else I'd be rich.
hmm (Score:5, Funny)
Re:hmm (Score:2)
<meta name="description" content="If you can read this meta description tag, then the author's wish for the end of metatags has not yet come true. Someday, it will.">
and some more "evil"?!? stuff:
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
So much for consistency.
search engine optimization and ranking. (Score:2)
MUCH more important is to have links to your, say SEO company http://www.search-engine-optimization-services-co
if i was going to try for the ever important link relevancy and popularity rating for my search engine optmization and page ranking company http://www.search-engine-optimization-services-co
Re:search engine optimization and ranking. (Score:2)
meta tags have little to do with ranking, and have had little to do for a long time.
MUCH more important is to have links to your, say SEO company http://www.search-engine-optimization-services-co
listed on a highly traveled page with many of the keywords that are relevant to your search engine company http://www.search-engine-optimization-services-co
if i was going to try for the ever important link relevancy and popularity rating for my search engine optmization and page ranking company http://www.search-engine-optimization-services-co
I would pay attention to this fact, and take advantage of linking my own site http://www.search-engine-optimization-services-co
when i could.
ahhm, the sweet smell of link relevancy.
The "Description" Metatag: still pretty useful.... (Score:5, Interesting)
The "description" metatag is still EXTREMELY useful, though. Even if a search engine doesn't use the metatags for ranking purposes, it can still use the "description" metatag to display a nice human-readable summary of the page. Often search engines just display the first N characters of text on the page and use that for a summary, which usually is not a good or readable summary for the site.
The problem with Google is that it seems to randomly use the "Description" metatag sometimes, but not others. Here's an example [google.com]. Notice how the second "Anime Expo 2002 at Bootyproject" link has a nice readable summary under it, but the first one doesn't. (It may have changed between the time I posted it and the time you view it, who knows) Which makes no sense to me, because if you look at the source for each of the two pages, the metatag information is identical for both pages. I don't get it, I dunno if Google's just a little broken in that respect, or if I screwed something up. Sorry to pimp my own site there... it's just an example I'm obviously quite familiar with.
But anyway, when search engines and authors use the description metatag properly (ie, the search engine doesn't use it for ranking, and the author takes the time to write a nice summary), it's pretty nice.
I do! (Score:2)
www.se.....oh wait, you said besides pr0n sites....
well, never mind, then.
metatags shoud be used (Score:3, Interesting)
Sure, Someone Uses It (Score:2)
Yep. It's a company called Microsoft, and an HTML *cough* editor *cough* known as FrontPage. They stuff plenty of pointless meta tags in there for you.
Declaring the Death of Any Technology?? (Score:3, Insightful)
A Better Way? (Score:2, Interesting)
Metadata is valuable for many things (Score:2, Interesting)
This summer I wrote a perl module called FileMetadata (available from CPAN) that collects metadata from files. I have used it to ease content management headaches on my website. Each HTML (XHTML) file has metadata that is used to advertise it on my site's index pages. I have ideas for more nifty things that can be done with metadata but as always time is finite.
A Client Story (Score:3, Insightful)
You can imagine how hard it was to convine him that meta-tags were not all that relevant anymore. This was mere months ago, mind you.
meta tags GOOD (Score:2, Flamebait)
They're also useful for keeping your documents in a form you can process later; you can, for instance, embed creation dates, CVS revisions, shorter/alternate titles and summaries for links.
<slaps timothy for spreading FUD against a perfectly useful HTML tag>
EAT FLAMING DEATH TIMMY!
Of course (Score:2)
Actualy, I generaly use HTTP redirects to move pages, but meta refresh can be usefull for people who don't have access to the software.
A legitmate use of metatags: ADA compliance (Score:2, Insightful)
For those with limited vision (or blindness), screen readers can (and usually do) use metatags to aid in navigation and content descriptions.
For anyone who's interested, check out the W3C site on Web Accessibility Guidelines at:
W3C Web Accessbility Guidelines [w3.org]
hehe the article uses them (Score:2)
<head>
<title>An End to Metatags (Enough Already, Part 1) - Traffick.com</title>
<meta name="keywords" content="metatags are evil, metatags must die, death to the meta tags">
<meta name="description" content="If you can read this meta description tag, then the author's wish for the end of metatags has not yet come true. Someday, it will.">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<link rel="stylesheet" href="styles2.css" type="text/css">
</head>
On a related note - the LINK tag... (Score:2)
For web authors out there - imagine an easy place to define where your home page is, and some basic navigation links, including a copyright page and an author link.
For browsers that support it, iCab on the Mac being one, it is a nice addition to a site when I find them.
Installed ht://Dig today... what timing! (Score:2)
Starting this morning I began reading the docs and installing the ht://Dig [htdig.org] search engine. There are a lot of configurable settings.
When I first got it working, I immediately realized that the 350-some static html files on my site really only have a couple dozen different sets of meta tags (due to starting new pages by copying existing ones). In fact, many of my pages don't even have really unique title that differentiate them from other similar pages on the site. If you're interested in seeing it, it's not yet linked from the rest of the site, but will be soon, at this new search page [pjrc.com]. The results still suck, mostly due to my poor meta and title tags.
That's not ht://Dig's fault, of course, and they do have you options to configure the weight for various things... and luckily I've used <h2>l and <h3> tags for labeling sections on almost all the pages, so I turned up the weighting for the text in those and in the link text on the site.
Still I have a lot of work to do to make my little site nicely searchable... and most of it is in the titles and meta tags. The keyword meta tags are the one place where you can list words that you can be certain a local search engine like ht://Dig will make use of them and display those pages.
Too bad the meta keyword tag was declared dead today.
How about search engines weight results (Score:2)
Time to proclaim the death of web pages content? (Score:2, Interesting)
It would probably be far more useful to begin black listing sites who try to divert traffic their ways by means of "lies". Something along the line the anti-spam lists that are in use for email.
Mistook the title of this story... (Score:2)
Don't you people see the commercials? Those repairmen don't have anything to do at all, how can you declare the death of something that never breaks?!
I use them religiously... (Score:2)
If they're useless, then you're using them wrong (Score:3, Interesting)
First of all, just because "keywords" tags can be fraudulently specified, doesn't mean that they are useless. I can publish pr0n in a book titled "Undergraduate Physics"; does that make book titles useless? The fault is not in the "keywords" tag; the fault is in naively trusting unverified data. It's okay to put lollipops from the store in your mouth, but it's not okay to do the same with lollipops that you pick out of the gutter.
OK, my turn now. I wish somebody would call a moratorium on printing an entire webpage in a teensy weensy font. I have carefully specified my default font size, because that is the size which is most appropriate for reading long pages of text on my monitor with my eyes. It's okay to make stuff smaller if it's supposed to be "the fine print", but for whole articles, please use the default font size.
On meta tags... (Score:3, Interesting)
If I'm on a slow link, I get to see a brief description of the page and then decide if I want to go to it. And if I'm on a slow link I disable flash, scripting, etc. and set cache to a small amount.
It also helps that I use a different browser for slow links. =) (Nope, not IE, Mozilla or Opera.)
Yes, I do (Score:3, Interesting)
Meta is quite useful, thank you (Score:3, Informative)
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
Then there is useful stuff:
<meta name="author" content="Elizabeth Lemke">
<meta name="author-email" content="nowhere@nowhere.net">
It is also useful for redirects and header information to the browser.
FWIW, I also use <link> tags in the <head> of HTML files for referring to important parts of the site and my e-mail.
How KEYWORDs could have been useful (Score:3, Interesting)
In my opininion it would still be possible to turn this thing around. If a couple of big search engines plastered an announcement all over their sites: "We only look at the first ten uniqe meta-keywords", things might change for the better.
Re:There's no point to them anymore (Score:2)
Google hasn't sold out. They sell ad space, but it doesn't affect the ranking. That's not selling out. Altavista sold out, I'm still pissed at them.
Re:Canadian Federal Government (Score:2)
Link, please?
As a Canadian, I'd like to know where my money is being wasted.