Want to read Slashdot from your mobile device? Point it at m.slashdot.org and keep reading!

 


Forgot your password?
Close
typodupeerror
×
Microsoft

Are Spreadsheets Software or Data? 86

Posted by Cliff from the the-blurred-line-behind-data-formats dept.
ideveroux asks: "I have started a company which designs Excel Workbooks to duplicate paperwork required for Bingo Halls in Mississippi. In all my years of experience, I have never considered a spreadsheet itself as software, only Excel. However, the Mississippi Gaming Commission has gotten itself into my business and is trying to require me to license my company with them ($10,000.00 and government involvement) because any 'software' sold to bingo's have to be licensed by them. What is your take? Are the workbooks software by themselves? As a startup with no venture capital, I haven't the resources to secure an attorney, nor pay their extortion money. Thanks for your input." Spreadsheets have always existed in this grey area because they mix functionality with data. This issue has grown more tricky over the years as in-spreadsheet macros become more and more complex. I don't think of spreadsheet files as software, because you can't edit or execute a saved spreadsheet without it's associated application. However some can say that anything that implements an algorithm qualifies for term. What are your thoughts on the subject?
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Are Spreadsheets Software or Data? More

Are Spreadsheets Software or Data?

Comments Filter:
  • From the perspective of someone who uses a spreadsheet of information: This stuff is data, as essential to a corporation with thousands of names to manage as lights and heat.

    Software regulators might as well license the software the power company uses, because it provides light to a casino using its software.

    If you are gonna give businesses this break, though, you should give the government an equivalent public good in exchange for ceding this control and revenue from software licensing.
    Governments should be able to easily break in and unwittingly subpoena the records of corporations like Enron, so they can't shred 'em.

  • Good 'Ol Boy Network (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Jeremiah Cornelius ( 137 ) on Thursday February 21, 2002 @07:06PM (#3048175) Homepage Journal
    This is their Ball, Bat and Sandlot. It doesn't matter if you are right and they are wrong - the state commission is RIGHT. You said it yourself - your a little guy. The Good 'Ol Boy network is there to make sure an upstart like you doesn't get in on the game, unless they get a cut. If you aren't big enough for a cut, then you don't get to play at all.

    No technical definition of software will alter the circumstance, because technical issues are irrelevant to the those controlling the issue. 10,000 USD is a good fee from their point of view. It's much less than the cost of fighting the battle in court - which is also run by more Good 'Ol Boys.

    I wish that there was a less pessimistic outlook. Welcome to the gap between perception and reality.

    • It's very possible to change state law, especially where it's obvious nonsense (If you've never talked to your state senator, they love to see constiuents, and it's smart to get to know a couple of them in case you ever need anything...)

      Talk to the senator in charge of the comission that oversees the gaming comission. Ask him what they are doing. It'll only take a lunch hour or so (unless you live outside the capital.)

      This is the type of thing any /.er (really any citizen) should be comfortable doing, especially since it's so useful and can have a significant impact. Try it.

      You can only complain when you know the system doesn't really work. Until you try it, you have no right to say it's broken.
      • It's very possible to change state law, especially where it's obvious nonsense

        It isn't -obvious- nonsense. Spreadsheets can contain all sorts of internal programming macros to do all kinds of things.

        Personally, I feel that an .xls file isn't software. But fair, well-informed, well-meaning people can disagree.

        And getting your senator to go against something that brings the gaming commission revenue requires optimism in the political system that I've long since lost.
    • No different than "The Mark Of The Beast", this is yet another example of exclusionary practices by licensing boards. This is the evil of licensure, of restricting an individuals libery not because of their actions, but only because someone has the authority to create the restriction.

      It's their rule, they win. Pay the money, or get out.

      Which leads me to wonder, what about the use of other software? If they have a Windows PC, does Microsoft have such a license?

      Just wondering how obviously hypocritical they licensing board is.

      Bob-

  • It depends (of course!) (Score:3)

    by Webmonger ( 24302 ) on Thursday February 21, 2002 @07:07PM (#3048184) Homepage
    It doesn't matter whether a spreadsheet can run without its app. Plenty of software has been written in languages that require an interpreter.

    At least some spreadsheets (e.g. Excel) support programming languages for their macros. Clearly Visual Basic is a programming language, regardless of whether it's a good one. So anything that uses Visual Basic is an app.

    Furthermore, you could argue that the mathmatical operations that a spreadsheet performs are themselves programming instructions. They're even formatted similarly to C function calls.

    Basically, the only spreadsheet that could not be interpreted to be an application is one that contains data (and layout) only, and no functions.

    I think it's fair to consider a spreadsheet that does something to be an application.

  • No solution (Score:4, Insightful)

    by rw2 ( 17419 ) on Thursday February 21, 2002 @07:09PM (#3048202) Homepage
    I just wanted to poke cliff in the ribs for defining software as something that doesn't require another application to execute.

    Dude, you've just eliminated *all* scripting languages from the definition of software.

    *My* next step would be to ask the gaming extortion folks where you can find the definition of 'software'. There should be one.

    • Re:No solution (Score:1, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      *** So so true ( meaning exactly what i was thinking :)

      Also, like, even if it's just a regular application, the thing makes library and os calls, which are really software in and of themself.. is barely ever anything in a computer which isn't riding on a huge bed of other functionality. And in lisp, data can be code and vise versa.. the line is indistinct, and, like, we supposedly understand this stuff. Legislators? heh. "good luck"

    • Re:No solution (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Cy Guy ( 56083 ) on Friday February 22, 2002 @12:51PM (#3052090) Homepage Journal
      you've just eliminated *all* scripting languages from the definition of software.

      Actually, every file that relies on an algorhithm to perform some function including the OS, even wordprocessing documents if they use anything more sophisticated than plain ASCII text - since they consist of instrustions that are carried out by the processor either directly or through the use of one or more intermediary programs.

      My question is, who are they not charging? Are they charging MS seperately for every single different application that comes with a default Windows install? Are they charging MS seperately for each compnent in MSOffice?

      One way around the license might be to convert the spreadsheet to java applet and host it online (hopefully in another state) then sell it as a service rather than a program that gets installed on the user's PC. Since the transaction would cross state lines, the state would not have jurisdication to regulate or license your service. Even within the same state, it's likely they would have real problems proving that the online spreadsheet is software, and even if they did, they would have to show how they were enforcing the license on other webservices such as Hotmail.

  • > I don't think of spreadsheet files as software,
    > because you can't edit or execute a saved
    > spreadsheet without it's associated
    > application. However some can say that anything
    > that implements an algorithm qualifies for
    > term. What are your thoughts on the subject?

    The are perl scripts programs or data? Just try to run a perl script without the interpreter.

    I'm sure the case could be made that Excel interprets the spreadsheet file rather than just displays it, which would make spreadsheets programs of a sort.

    -Chris

  • they are the classic mixture (Score:3, Insightful)

    by DrSkwid ( 118965 ) on Thursday February 21, 2002 @07:18PM (#3048257) Journal
    If ever a paradigm mixed logic and presentation then spreadsheets are it.

    They are software throguh and through, no question.

    It would be fairly trivial to write a Turing Complete Machine interpreter entirely in VBA in Excel and I'm sure the same must be true of other spreadsheets.

    Just like php, spreadsheet's consider anything literal text unless otherwise instructed.

    You can embed the excel engine as an ActiveX control in other applications and use it.

    What other proof would one need?

  • spreadsheets can be software (Score:3, Insightful)

    by mayoff ( 29924 ) on Thursday February 21, 2002 @07:26PM (#3048296) Homepage
    If a spreadsheet contains nothing but data - no formulas or macros - then clearly it's data, not software. (You could just as easily distribute it as a tab-separated file, if you forgo fancy formatting.)

    Macros written in a language like VBA are clearly programs: now your spreadsheet is a mixture of data and software.

    An Excel formula can also easily be considered a program: it describes a computation in a form precise and formal enough that a machine can carry out the computation.

    How many formulas or macros, and of what complexity, are necessary before a spreadsheet is "software" in the eyes of the law? The courts will probably have to decide this eventually; there may be no general answer. You might have to look at the purpose of the law.

    In this case, the law is that bingo software must be licensed by the MGC. Why? I don't know, but perhaps it's to ensure that the taxes are paid, or that the books are kept accurately, or that the bingo numbers are drawn fairly. Then the court will probably consider whether the spreadsheet is involved in, and automates, those activities. If so, then the spreadsheet would probably be considered software that must be licensed by the MGC.

    Cliff said, "... you can't edit or execute a saved spreadsheet without it's associated application." That is irrelevant. I can't execute a Perl or Python program without the right interpreter. I can't execute Java bytecodes without a VM. I can't execute Windows programs without an implementation of the Windows API. Software often relies on the presence of other software.

    • Mississippi State Law Uniform Commercial Code 75-9-102 (75) defines software as a computer program or any supporting information provided in connection with a transaction relating to the program. The term does not include a computer program that is included in the definition of goods. Mississippi State Law Uniform Commercial Code 75-9-102 (44) defines goods as ...a computer program embedded in goods and any supporting information provided in connection with a transaction relating to the program if (i) the program is associated with the goods in such a manner that it customarily is considered part of the goods.
  • If your spreadsheet simply contained tables of static data, it would be hard consider that file as software.

    However, the spreadsheet described contains formulas and/or macros, so it seems correct to consider it software. Some sort of processing occurs against the data according to rules which you programmed via these formulas, macros, and/or VBA code.

    The Excel application features a programmable interface, a BASIC interpreter. Excel (like Word, Access, Power Point, Visio, and Internet Explorer) features a Visual Basic for Applications interpreter as an Office Automation feature. A spreadsheet file can contain executable code which the VBA interpreter processes. These 'macros' can be protected, 'compiled', and delivered in a 'binary' format, and even function as an add-in.

    This programmability feature is not unique to Microsoft. Star Office supports a similar macro programming language for all it's cooperating applications.

    Programmable office suites existed well before Microsoft Office. Anyone recall Ashton-Tate's Framework? Recall Borland's Sprint word processor with that macro language that resembled C or perhaps C-Sharp??!! Many other office software packages and suites have macro features like this and even programmer software development kits.

    Many will argue there is a fine line between office automation and programming. I think it's a shame that government regulators would pursue this instance. It's sort of like the old Visicalc files that did IRS Form 1040 calculations. But they were free downloads. Were they programs? I suspect they might be. Did the government regulate them? Nope, they were basically ignored.

    If you are presenting these files as providing automation/functionality appropriate for a business, you seem to have crossed the line into being a developer. So, I would conclude you should pay up. Consider another type of legal business not requiring this sort of regulation and continual governmental probing. Your spreadsheets will probably have to pass some sort of audit regulation in the future.

  • Who cares if it's software in and of itself or not? Who cares if the Good 'Ol Boys commission wnats $10,000 dollars to play in thier sandlot.. If you design a product that will solve the bingo parlor's needs well enough, you should be to sell it as a package for a healthy chunk of the "Price to Play." I am also guessing that this is not the only Bingo place in Mississippi that has a PC. You could pitch your product to them as well, and even if you get 1 out of every 5 Bingo parlors to play, you should be able to pony up the dough fairly quickly... Oh, and just in case anybody is wondering, an Access *.mdb file is useless without some sort of runtime. I imagine the same is true for an Excel Workbook.

  • A spreadsheet that displays information is data. A spreadsheet that is user modifyable in an interactive way (i.e. like a payroll) is infact an application.

    It is no less an application because it requires Excel than a java applet is because it requires JRE/JDK.
  • I'll stay away from the tech aspects of this, but lookin into the positives. As one who lives in Nevada, the State Gaming Commission here is very paranoid about anything that goes on to make sure things stay fair and legal, they even regulate the chips that go inside Slot Machines. What happens if something in your spreadsheets would allow bingo operators to skim money (gameing is permitted for the tax revenues it generates not so you can have fun), or lie about the percentage of funds being returned to players as prizes (something you might want to know about). Just the opposite, by having a registered known working version they can than compare the version in use by someone running bingo games. If they find a discrepency they can use that to prosecute or at least start an audit. Part of it may be to insure your stuff doesn't deviate from accepted accounting practices. On the positive side if you sign up your become an authorized vendor giving you an edge over some other newbie !
    • But I'm sure the Nevada SGC is careful to define exactly what it wants certified.

      "Software used by bingo parlors" includes Windows itself. It includes the Office applications. Do you think they meant the regulations to include these products in the "$10k + license" requirements?

      In the case of a spreadsheet, I suspect (but don't know) that the standard is that the person who signs the forms s responsible for the accuracy of the reports. They can use whatever tools they want to generate the numbers, but if they're wrong they're going to jail.

      As for auditing triggers, all you need is the right set of numbers in the reports. How many people played? How many games were played? What were expenses? What were payoffs? Cross-reference that to other information a state is able to acquire, and there shouldn't be any problem identifying questionable players.
  • I think there's a few key points that could be brought up to prove that this isn't software. A software application runs on a platform to provide some sort of functionality. Given this, we could examine the spreadsheet in the same way:

    Q: Can you open and execute the spreadsheet on it's own?
    A: No. The spreadsheet requires a proper spreadsheet application to view it.

    Q: Does the spreadsheet provide any sort of functionality by itself?
    A: It doesn't do this either. Again, you have to have the application in order to give the spreadsheet any functionality.

    Q: If the spreadsheet has programmatic features, such as macros, can these be executed or used to provide functionality?
    A: It can't do this either. Not only are they not capable of executing themselves without an application, the macros contained are not even cross compatible. That defines them as a feature of the application, rather than a feature of the spreadsheet.

    Bottom line? I think they're jerking you around, and I wouldn't stand up for it. Even though you don't have a lot of resources, there are things you can do. Besides, if we don't defend our rights, who will?
    • i think every perl script i've ever written also meets these same criteria. without a perl interpreter, my code has no functionality on it's own.

      of course, binary compiled code might even be thought of in the same light without the handy help of my OS "application" that lets it run...

      short answer, then: "ask slashdot" is a lousy place to get legal advice.
      • Well, it's probably not a popular opinion, but I would say that on their own, your perl scripts do not represent software. True, they can be used to provide custom functionality, but in the end they require software to run; they are not software themselves. They are source code, they are raw data used and implemented as a feature of the interpreter.

        I wouldn't argue that binary compiled code is considered simply data without an operating system. I don't want to get into semantics, but to me software is partially *defined* by that requirement of a platform. If a piece of software ran without the operating system, I would consider it an operating system itself.
        • many languages allow you to treat procedures as data. there is no difference between the two. and almost all software requires other software. the wrongheadedness of this debate is mind boggling.
    • All programs require an application to run on, usually the one called the Operating System. The OS is simply an application on the BIOS, which is an appication on the chips firmware.

      Try using your applications without an OS and see how far you get.
  • You could in theory document how to completely create the execl FILES. Even build a extremely basic template for the file and sell that to individal bingo halls. Write the documentation in a plain text file with no formatting. I'd like to see them claim a plain text file is "software." Of course you couldn't sell it for near as much but you also could package your services to install the template and customize it for a specific hall. Just a thought there.

  • Get a lawyer (Score:4, Interesting)

    by coyote-san ( 38515 ) on Thursday February 21, 2002 @08:17PM (#3048502)
    Get a local lawyer with some knowledge about the field. This is one of those questions where what we think doesn't matter - it will all down to local statutory and case law.


    That said, two questions stand out to me:

    • Is "software" even legally defined in the State of Mississippi? It's possible that "software" is either undefined, or it's defined in some archaic fashion. E.g., are you providing your spreadsheet via a stack of EBCDIC encoded punch cards containing Fortran or COBOL source code?


      On the flip side, it's possible that you're dead in the water because the good people of the great state of Mississippi have already decided that Excel spreadsheets shall be considered software, not data.

    • Has Microsoft paid the $10,000 fee for their license? Or $100,000, if you treat the OS, browser and Office components as separate programs? What about the other utility software? If they haven't, and the statute or regulations don't provide for exceptions, then this is preferential enforcement and that should raise some eyebrows. But then again, you're trying to sell something that's specific to Bingo halls operating in Mississippi, not a general tool.

  • Interesting (Score:2, Interesting)

    by fizban ( 58094 )
    Many people here have said that a spreadsheet, even one with macros, is *not* software because you can't load it up in the computer's memory and run it like a program.

    So, does that mean that any *interepreted language* can also be considered non-software because it can't run without its associated application?

    If not, then if your spreadsheet has functions or macros in it that manipulate the data, then I think you have to call it software. If it's *just* data, then you shouldn't call it software.

    I think you have to look at the "intention" of the item. If it's intended to be run by something, then it is software, otherwise it isn't.
  • Perhaps you could restructure yourself so that you can provide them with free software (as in beer and libre) and charge for your service somehow. Then they may not be able to rape you as bad. Just a thought, but of course, a lawyer is needed. Guess what that might end up costing you?

  • This sort of reminds me of the question that either Adobe or MS raised a few years ago about whether outline fonts were data or programs. The contention was that since Type 1 and TrueType fonts have some logic in them, they are in fact programs. IIRC, this was because programs were clearly protected under copyright laws, but fonts were not clearly defined at the time.

    The closest thing I can find is a reference to a court case [google.com] between Adobe [adobe.com] and Southern Software [ssifonts.com], in which it was ruled that fonts are copyrightable. I can't find references to earlier cases, though I'm sure there were some.

    In any event, there probably isn't a clear legal definition of what software is (heck, the dictionary definition [dictionary.com] isn't very clear) and whether spreadsheets or a particular spreadsheet is included in that definition. Unless you do some legal research or hire a lawyer to back up your claim, you are (as other posters pointed out) stuck with what the Mississippi Gaming Commission decides it is.

    • Well there might not be a legal definition of software, but copyright law does define a "computer program" to be "a set of statements or instructions to be used directly or indirectly in a computer in order to bring about a certain result"

      I would figure that any spreadsheet that uses formulas or macros would fall under this definition.
  • IANAL but I just had a look at the regs on the MGC's website (http://www.mgc.state.ms.us/ [state.ms.us]), and I couldn't find mention of a regulation that all software sold has to be licenced. There is however a condition that any accounting system implemented has to fulfil certain criteria. When the bingo hall got its licence it had to submit details about what sort of accounting system it intended to implement. Note this is not neccessarily a computing system, but system in the broader sense of the word. The problem is that if they decide to IMPLEMENT (not purchase) a new accounting method they have to modify their gaming licence. Thus in reality you should not be the one responsible for costs of licencing your software, but the bingo hall may be.
  • Needless to say, IANAL and you should definitely be talking to one...

    Treating this as a theoretical debate, which is probably the only worthwhile way to discuss it here, the spirit of the law strikes me as this: If you're supplying equipment to gambling enterprises, you have to give a cut to the government. You are selling equipment to gambling enterprises. The intent of the law is for you to pay.

    Again, how software is precisely defined is a different issue, and you should be asking a lawyer, not us.

  • Software - NOUN
    Computer Science The programs, routines, and symbolic languages that control the functioning of the hardware and direct its operation.

    Data - PLURAL NOUN
    (used with a sing. or pl. verb) 1. Factual information, especially information organized for analysis or used to reason or make decisions. 2. Computer Science Numerical or other information represented in a form suitable for processing by computer. 3. Values derived from scientific experiments. 4. See datum.

    It's a very fine line. I personally would call an excel workbook data, but I'm not sure how well it can hold up in reality.
  • You can implement a turing machine in a spreadsheet, and thus any algorithm. Thus, a spreadsheet is a program.
  • Just an idea to throw around.

    If we say that if you distribute something that - as a whole - can be used without help from other applications then it is software.

    If you distribute something that needs a pre-existing package installed it is data.

    By that logic - your spreadsheet, provided you don't package it with Excel itself, is data because the customer must supply the spreadsheet as data to the pre existing excel to get anything from it.

    Same goes for interpreted languages, perl itself is software because you install perl and can use it - but a perl program distributed on it's own is data because it requires to be fed as data to the pre existing perl.

    Well, it's a thought.

  • I don't think of spreadsheet files as software, because you can't edit or execute a saved spreadsheet without it's associated application.

    Java programs are byte code which require an interpreter (the jre). Perl/bash/csh scripts will not run without their associated program, yet they are all considered software.
    • Yup!

      I'd agree, you could think of it that way. Excel macros wont run without the vb runtime engine. The real question is, is your spread sheet just a csv in discuise or do you have macros that you customized to your spread sheets.

      I wonder if this means I can sell spreadsheets that do the 1040 tax form calculations .... Schedules A, B & D, and CA state... hmmm

  • yep (Score:2)

    by man_ls ( 248470 )
    I'd argue in favor of the gaming comission on this one. Excel has a very nice scripting language known as formulas, and with VBA, it's even more powerful. I've seen Excel workbooks with dropdown menus in fields and all kinds of stuff.

    Think about it in the context of a language run through an interpreter. Is the interpreter software? Yes. Are the programs that must use THAT PRORGAM to run also software? Yes. Excel workbook is the same way.
    • Question is, do the spreadsheets he sells to the bingo people contain any of those fancy scripting formulas and VB macros, or is it just a lump of numbers or somewhere inbetween?
  • I think doing so would circumvent any argument that could be made against the native excel file format being software.
  • I used to make myself extremely unpopular at meetings where multi-million dollar decisions were being made on the basis of spreadsheet results by asking to see the test cases, etc., to verify that the somewhat complex formulas coded into the spreadsheet were correct. I was particularly demanding in those cases where the spreadsheet program allowed recursive formulas and would silently iterate until either (a) it decided that a fixed point solution had been reached or (b) too many iterations had gone by.

    I got kicked out once when my comment was "If I wrote and tested product code to the same standard that you use for your spreadsheet code, you'd fire me."

  • Specifically, change your product to a service? You go in and "design" the spreadsheets for them, they pay for their own software licenses and whatnot?
  • All software is data and all data (if it's in a computing machine) is software. Programmers split them up in order to facilitate talking about them, but when you get down to it your computer is a state machine. It might seem that the 'software' manipulates 'data', but it's just as true that 'data' manipulates 'software'. If you try to separate them for legal reasons, you will only make laws that make no sense (as they seem to have done).

    Laws that rely on a distinction between software and data should be challenged as ambiguous and thrown out. Is that VHS tape a bunch of data? You bet it is, but it's also analog software that runs on your VCR to display moving pictures with sound. There was a slashdot article a while back about weather or not DVDs are software. Of course they are! And they are data also. I know that there are bad legal implications of this, but that's because the laws are bad!

    We thought that we were bad off when we let legislators write laws, but now that we let media companies write them, things are even worse. Our legislative bodies need large influxes of mathematitions and programmers. Logic seems to be in short supply at the state and federal level - at least in the U.S. (not to mention local, but they're hopeless).

  • Spreadsheets are DATA (Score:4, Insightful)

    by renehollan ( 138013 ) <[rhollan] [at] [clearwire.net]> on Friday February 22, 2002 @12:32AM (#3049436) Homepage Journal
    I know I'm going out on a limb here, and there may be spreadsheets that violate the premises I use to conclude that they are data and not software, but most that I've encountered qualify as data.

    Consider: Is '5' a program or data? It is certainly interpreted from it's representation within the computer to produce a literal '5'. I think it would be folly to argue that '5' is a program, though in the process of being presented to us, it controls many things, rather like a program. Still, we consider it data.

    Now, consider (1+1/1000)^1000. Is that a program or data? It certainly requires interpretation to produce a result. But that result is an approximation to e, the base of the natural logarithms. We may also series expansion approximations to irrational numbers, like pi. Are those programs? I would still say no.

    I'd say this because the result of these "programs" does not change with each run. Their output may as well be data. A program with no input (and I've yet to see a spread sheet prompt, when I have it recalculate, unless there is some error) always produces the same output and can be considered identical to that output. It is precisely because spreadsheets fix the data that their embedded formulas use, that the spreadsheet as a whole can be considered data. Unlike a program, a spreadsheet isn't "run", it just "is", once the numbers are entered. Errors in the embedded formulae are no different than errors in transcription, or manual processing of the numbers. Both these are subject to audit, so incorrect embedded formulae can be caught when the data is presented. This is not so with a program, where the input and output are distinct from the program itself.

    In the same way that accounting records can be audited, spreadsheets can also be audited: all the intermediate steps are still there. There is no need to "pre-audit" or "license" the program to make sure it is correct.

  • Go to a local university, and try to get as many Computer Science professors to sign a letter that says that your product is not software. Use these letters as evidence.
  • Think about it. That nice bit of C source code you just spent hours lovingly crafting - just input data to the compiler. The resulting binary file - just data to the OS's loader. The OS itself - again, just data as far as the bootloader is concerned. The bootloader - just data for the BIOS. And the BIOS was only data when the device programmer programmed it into the ROM.

    Conversely, what you consider to be data could also be argued to be a program. That MP3 file is a series of instructions to tell the MP3 interpreter how to construct something that resembles the original waveform. A MIDI file can contain loops - software of data?

    You're really asking the wrong question. The question should be "Am I distributing anything that I didn't produce myself, and if so am I permitted to do so?" It doesn't matter whether it's software or data - if you're distributing someone else's copyright material, you need a license. I don't think a court would decide that a compiler write can claim copyright over the compiler's output, but library routines are a grey area.

    Whatever happens, let this be a lesson - before you buy development tools, check whether their output can be used royalty free. If not, avoid these tools wherever possible.

    Just my EUR 2.00 (nose-diving exchange rate) :-)

    • Doesn't anyone remember their computer science history?

      http://www.csupomona.edu/~hnriley/www/VonN.html

      Interestingly he says that the orders and data can reside in the same memory "if the machine can in some fashion distinguish a number from an order" And yet, there is no distinction between the two in memory.

  • If the spreadsheet contains algorithms in a computer readable form then it should be considered a program (at least partly) from a computer science point of view. If it were data it functions would be limited to providing input that is processed entirely by the undelying application. If it contains formulas it has to be considered to be more than pure data.

    However the term software is not the opposite of data but of the term hardware. It may be well possible that some legal definitions use "software" to describe both - data and programs. You should try to find the regulations covering the fee you are expected to pay.
  • One might be tempted to get down to common sense. If the spreadsheet contains mostly data, and few formulas, and the primary purpose of its existence is to present those data in some form, then it's data. On the other hand, if the spreadsheet contains mostly formulas, macro-commands, etc, and the primary purpose of the spreadsheet is to plug in data to do analyses, etc, then it's a program.

    Unfortunately, common sense works very badly when it comes to regulation. Your best bet is to explain your situation to them, and maybe the press, politicians, etc, if you think you are being treated unfairly. It might not work for you, but maybe for the next guy :-(

  • Uh ... there is freeware spreadsheet software that you and your customers can use. But you say, they won't use anything else but Excel? So, you need to convert to Excell? There's such a thing as comma delimited format, so just have your program export the spreadsheet that way. The result doesn't import into Excel properly? Now who's fault is that? The moral of the story about licensing? The 800 pound gorilla will eventually be able to ignore standards, such as comma delimited format. Licensing of software is a slippery slope, and there's no bottom. Afterall, who's licensed ASCII or EBCDIC? When will they start to clammor about royalties? How's about the rights to write ACSII to ferromagnetic media? What about the power companies? Afterall, if there was no juice going through your computers ... etc., etc., etc. Sound over the top? Just keep going on with the licensing absurdity that exists today. You'll see it.
  • And chat with him about it.

    If you belong to the right party, or make some sort of campaign contribution, the gaming commission will go away.

    Being involved with the gambling industry without political affiliations is a really bad idea.
  • I have seen things run in excel that are obviously applications in their own right.

    I guess the question is more of how much functionality you are adding. I think most of us would agree that most web pages are not applications, but some are. The fact is that a web browser can host an application; so can excel.

    Are plug-ins, applets, activex controls software? I think so. Are the formulas used in excel software? No, I would call them the reason for being for a spreadsheet. Once you add VBA/macro languages we are moving into software. Since you've given no indication of what your spreadsheets do, I can make no judgements in your specific case.

    SM

  • I am not a lawyer, but you need a lawyer... It seems to me you should be able to get some good help on this without spending more than a few hundred dollars -- you don't necessarily need to go to court, you just need some advice about whether there is a definition of software that they use, and who to talk to to try to weasel out of paying their huge license fee. You might try to find some small-business department in your state or local government -- they often have people you can talk to for advice, and if they can't help directly, they might point you to a good lawyer to talk to.

    As people have said, though, it might depend on what your spreadsheets actually do. If you don't use any internal scripting language, and it is just your plain-old, vanilla spreadsheet that sums columns and such, then it's as much "software" as a pair of shoes and a walking stick could be called a "vehicle".

    The important thing, though, isn't whether or not it's software, it's do they have a long-running policy of considering spreadsheets software, and have there been any exceptions. If you can show that your stuff is just like some other stuff that they don't consider software, then that would help. If they have a long-running policy with no exceptions, though, you're probably out of luck -- I doubt you want to spend years in court trying to overturn their policy.

  • Spreadsheets are data and behavior bundled together. Sounds more like the definition of an object than of code or data. And yes, code is data, and data can be code, and all that. But that's kind of beside the point.

    Your problem is what the MGC and state law consider to be software, not what we Slashdotistas think. That has little or nothing to do with technology, sanity, or best practice in the industry. That involves our learned friends in the legal profession.

  • Spreadsheets are applications if they are used to have information inputted and then give results. They are data if they are not designed to have information inputted; they just contain static information that was already processed.

    For example, a table of numbers that adds together each column to create a subtotal and then adds together the subtotals is an app if it is empty, waiting to be filled, but it is data if it is filled with information. There are means to distribute the information without including the application by converting to an HTML table or whatnot, so you should use that, if it is just data. So if you only want to distribute information, don't send the application (spreadsheet) with it.

    I definitely think that spreadsheets are applications because I started programming with MS Works.
  • Clearly a workbook cannot be software, in the normal sense of the word. I hesitate to call a spreadsheet anything other than self-organizing, or perhaps scripted, data; however, "software" in the common vernacular denotes a functional program, which a workbook certainly isn't. Furthermore, there is no *requirement* for that data to be dynamically organized: often, it is static arrays of data.
  • Mississippi State Law Uniform Commercial Code 75-9-102 (75) defines software as a computer program or any supporting information provided in connection with a transaction relating to the program. The term does not include a computer program that is included in the definition of goods. Mississippi State Law Uniform Commercial Code 75-9-102 (44) defines goods as ...a computer program embedded in goods and any supporting information provided in connection with a transaction relating to the program if (i) the program is associated with the goods in such a manner that it customarily is considered part of the goods. This is the research i conducted prior to offering up the spreadsheets. I know, i'm seeking lawyers and senators all next week, but it's nice to get a view on the subject matter from people within the technology arena. Thanks for all the posts. Ian
    • Your screwed.

      You've created a custom solution for an industry which is highly regulated. You won't have a choice on paying any ceritifcation fees, and, you might not qualify anyway.

      Even if you were contracted by each bingo hall seperatly you would probably find a requirement for certification anyway. Either you, or the end results.

      Had you created an accounting package (for instance) and they happened to choose it -they- would have to deal with any certification. (Although there may be other, specific regulations in your state for accounting software).
  • software
    n : (computer science) written programs or procedures or rules
    and associated documentation pertaining to the operation
    of a computer system and that are stored in read/write
    memory

    Looks like spreadsheets are software to me.
  • Become a consultant that writes software for bingo parlors--go to each one, and offer your services--I imagine that there is a relativly small number anyway, and as that is basically what you would do to sell the prewritten spreadsheet, then what difference does it make, in this particular case. Show up, install, show how to use, leave.
  • I don't think of spreadsheet files as software, because you can't edit or execute a saved spreadsheet without it's associated application.

    There are spreadsheet compilers around that can turn a spreadheet into a standalone application.

    Most Java programs run in a virtual machine.

    What is the difference? Not much that I can see.

  • So don't sell them an end product. Sell them the labor to create the product.

    Here in Idaho we have sales tax. If I sold software then the customer would have to pay not only the cost of the creation of the software (which would include the cost of my doing business such as my taxes) but they would also have to pay sales tax.

    Instead I create a product for them and they just contract my labor to do so. That gets around the double (triple) taxation.

    And in your case it might be the only way to stay in the game since the government is obviously set in its ways to make sure you can't play.

  • Although I really do not grasp the need to pay a company to design spreadsheet layouts, you seem to have only one choice... Play ball, and pass the cost on to your customers. If you really fit a niche market, they'll have no choice (all part of the game... Remember, that extortion money works *for* you as well as against you, by giving you a virtual monopoly).
  • Most software runs under the control of another piece of software. For example, desktop apps (like Excel) tend to run under an OS (also a bonafide piece of software). So extending this another layer deep by having scripts and macros and worksheets execute under a dekstop app (that executes under an OS) seems pretty normal.

Slashdot Top Deals

He has not acquired a fortune; the fortune has acquired him. -- Bion

Close