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Apple Businesses

Maine buys 38,600 ibooks for Public Schools 581

Posted by chrisd from the maine-kids-are-31337 dept.
Anderson Silva writes "I just found this piece of news on MacSlash, and since I live in Maine, and I own an ibook, I thought I would pass the word along: The Maine Learning Technology Endowment has announced today that Apple has won the bid to provide Maine 6th, 7th and 8th graders with Apple iBooks and Airport wireless connection points."
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Maine buys 38,600 ibooks for Public Schools More

Maine buys 38,600 ibooks for Public Schools

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  • Anyone know who was competing? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by MikeDataLink ( 536925 ) on Monday December 03, 2001 @08:46PM (#2651624) Homepage Journal
    It would be pretty hard for MS to sell them IBooks. I assume other companies were competing with different products.

    Apple has always gone out of their way to win school bids. I remember when I was a kid I wanted an Apple ][ just because that's what the school had, and that my friend, is what Apple wants!

    Mike
  • were it's own fault. The Wall Street Journal [wsj.com] had an article last year about it. It said that in years past Apple used to sell to schools through resellers and other middlemen. But then they got greedy and tried to get it to themselves. Of course the middlemen had the relationships built with their customers and started selling them PC's with Windows. And now Apple is playing catch up.

  • Gimmickry and technology (Score:3, Flamebait)

    by gunner800 ( 142959 ) on Monday December 03, 2001 @08:47PM (#2651631) Homepage
    It's good to see schools diving into this technology rather than figuring out pressing educational problems or sticking to the "core functionality" of a classroom. Our children will be well-equipped to serve as marketing drones and politicians. Their quality of life will be greater than their parents', according to the trade magazines.
  • Why spend money on hardware that is harder to replace and more expensive than desktops? Aside from the very limited ammount of field research that schools do, desktops should be fine. The only reason they buy laptops is to seem more in tune with the 21st century, or whatever bullshit the school administrators believe in. My school just bought a bunch of laptops, and they're not very usefull considering their lame hardware. The money could have been better spent on desktop PCs which would take longer togo out of date (you can buy more powerfull desktop PCs for the same money as a less powerfull desktop)

    • No Room (Score:2, Insightful)

      by NSupremo ( 161699 )
      If you have a desktop you have just wasted an entire desk. With the laptop you don't need a special desk just for the machine, plus you can put it away. And they can be much more easily locked away when not in use.

      And as far as computing power... I think our software makers have a long way to go before they are limited by todays hardware. (You don't require 125 frames per second in geology class...)

      • If you have a desktop you have just wasted an entire desk. With the laptop you don't need a special desk just for the machine, plus you can put it away. And they can be much more easily locked away when not in use.

        I wonder how hard it would be to set up a flat screen setup that could fold away into the desk. Basically a flat screen wireless xterminal, networked to the teacher's 1.5 gigahertz running linux (which of course is networked to the rest of the school). A thin client network would probably be better for teaching applications anyway, but the initial setup would probably wind up costing the same $1K each anyway. The advantage would be in the upgrades. In any case, it would probably take far too much technical knowhow for the school system to actually pull off, and hiring that technology would probably be too expensive, so I can see why they're not doing it, but the solution is there... I wish I had contacts on school boards... I guess the rest of the country is glad I don't :)

    • Laptops are mobile, desktops are not. Need the computers down the hall in Ms. Smith's classroom in the morning? No problem, pack them into a cart, off you go. Need them in Mr. Clark's classroom during the afternoon? No problem, pack them into a cart, off you go.

      Laptops will allow more kids to use the computers.

      Before you think of "That's what the computer lab is for!"... as somebody else mentioned, there is often times no space for computer labs. Classrooms are packed full and no over-populated school is going to set aside a perfectly good general classroom just to put in a computer lab.

    • Laptops are a nightmare. I supported a HS and MS LAN and the laptops were horrendously expensive. And once they leave the class room you have *no* control over what the students do. Johnny comes to class the next day with a hard drive full of porn. Or Sally ends up playing solitaire all night long, etc.

      What ever they are smoking when they made that decision, I want some....
    • Someone in a local school thought it was a brilliant idea to buy a bunch of laptops for a high school class. They started getting "lost" within a week and by the end of the year there were only a couple left.

      Bad idea. Laptops sprout legs.

    • Laptop Pros
      1. Software can be more easily licensed 'per machine' allowing the kids (with permission) to take the machines home and use the software without dealing with headaches like copied (pirated) software from school. Believe me, those 'homework licenses' are a pain.
      2. There's no external mouse to be gummed up or with a ball or steal. (When I was in HS, this was a *huge* problem.)
      3. No mousepads needed.
      4. The electricity logistics are probably better. A desktop with a newer 15" monitor will take 3 amps or so. A laptop only takes power when it's recharging. So you don't have to mess with lots of wiring and powerbars, etc.
      5. Students can use them in the classroom at their desks which frees computer lab space for other uses.
      6. Easy to securely store away in the summer so they're not sitting vulnerable in a lab somewhere.
      7. Built-in audio. Most desktops in schools have external speakers which are annoying for other users. A minority of them will have headphone plugs. Almost every laptop will have a headphone plug.
      8. Less heat generation than a desktop with a monitor. We have a certain new lab with 70 desktops with 19" monitors at my university and it's like a sauna in that room.

      Laptop Cons
      1. Oops, I dropped it (or spilled my lunch on it.)
      2. Easier to steal when they are passing through many students' hands.
      3. More expensive for the computing power, harder to upgrade or fix in-house.

  • The cost alone.. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by El_Nofx ( 514455 ) on Monday December 03, 2001 @08:48PM (#2651637)
    I work in the It department for my school and all the teachers have laptops. They break the screen, break the dongles, drop them, one actually ran over his with his car, and these are all PhD's, imagine what these kids are going to do with these things!
    • Trust me. I work for a BioTech. Most of the company has at least one PhD. Having a PhD does not make you smart or realize that your computer is not actually plugged into a valid power source.

    • Re:The cost alone.. (Score:3, Interesting)

      by rlowe69 ( 74867 )
      I work in the It department for my school and all the teachers have laptops. They break the screen, break the dongles, drop them, one actually ran over his with his car, and these are all PhD's, imagine what these kids are going to do with these things!

      In my experience, I've noticed that smart (ie. PhD), non-hitech people are the worst with technology. This is probably because they think like "why doesn't this work like I think?" instead of "why don't I try to figure this out?". This is how they end up breaking hardware (and software!).

      It's hard, I know. But smart people sometimes have to get past their egos and realise they don't know everything. They NEED training, probably more than kids. For kids, computers have been around almost all of their lives. They are natural. To adults, these seemingly fragile pieces of equipment are clumsy, heavy and ugly. No wonder the guy is using it as a speed bump.

      Kids, on the other hand ... they'll treat those computers like gold. That is, if you let them.
    • They break the screen, break the dongles, drop them, one actually ran over his with his car, and these are all PhD's, imagine what these kids are going to do with these things!

      By your argument, nobody should have laptops. I don't think having a PhD is relevant to the ability to own a laptop. I think with proper training and respect for expensive provided equipment, any teenager can properly handle a laptop.

      (Of course I've dropped my laptop but that's because the zipper on my backpack decided to break the one time I put my laptop in there :) )
    • I work in the It department for my school...

      Wow! Your school already has an entire department dedicated to that funky scooter-unicycle thing? I heard it was going to take over, but I guess you're really ahead of the curve!

  • hmmm, social promotion??? (Score:5, Funny)

    by call -151 ( 230520 ) on Monday December 03, 2001 @08:49PM (#2651642) Homepage
    From the article:
    all seventh grade students and teachers will begin using portable, wireless computers in the Fall of 2002, and all eighth grade students and teachers will be equipped the following year
    And maybe the year after that, the same students will get computers as 9th graders!

  • The Endowment itself (Score:2, Interesting)

    by desideria ( 140436 )

    Besides using macs, which IMHO is totally cool, The Maine Learning Technology Endowement [state.me.us] itself is actually quite a progressive idea.

  • This is nothing new, Henrico County Public Schools (Richmond, Va.) started this year by issueing every 9th, 10th, 11th and 12th grader with an iBook. According to various students, it has been a massive disaster, students using Instant Messanger all the time, hardware failures running rampant, the latches on those things just can't take the abuse of a teenager. That coupled with the low bandwidth estimates have constantly crashed the Airport systems. It's a great Idea in theory and I'm sure after a year or two it will do a great deal of good, but for now, we are just giving out Laptops to teenages for games and the like.

    • Hey, you said it. Let's not discount colleges (and even my sisters' private high school) "providing" students with laptop-which means, "We just increased your tuition by $2000, and you don't get to choose what computer you get."

      In my experience, implementation of computers and particularly the Internet has been excreble, especially outside the college level. At my sister's school, they got to pay $2100 for a Compaq that feels like a 486 (supposedly a Celeron, but it's the slowest POS I've ever used).

      They also set up a wireless network, which allows students to IM each other (when their computers work.) IT sucks up a huge amount of budget, as the assheads had to set up an on-site repair shop in the high school just to keep the Compaqs up and running.

      How are the laptops being put to use? PDF versions of textbooks are replacing their paper counterparts (I could understand for searching/indexing purposes, but who wants to read 50 pages of PDF?) Other than that, nothing.

      The Internet (and computers in general) have been hailed as next great tool in education, just like the TV was before it. Let's not forget that implementation makes all the difference. Forcing students to carry around a laptop doesn't help anything.

  • headline should have read... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by MoNsTeR ( 4403 ) on Monday December 03, 2001 @08:52PM (#2651659)
    ...State of Maine wastes $38,600,000 of taxpayers' money.

    But seriously, does anyone really, REALLY think that $38.6M couldn't POSSIBLY have found better uses than buying laptops? Like, some textbooks maybe? Or hiring teachers that made better than a C average in college?

    Though I suppose Maine may not have these problems to the extent Colorado does. In that case, I suppose the money is better spent buying iBooks than building prisons or installing street surveillance cameras... (though I contend the best use of any "government money" is to refund it to its rightful owners)
    • Or hiring teachers that made better than a C average in college?

      hell, if a C average is good enough for our President, it ought to be good enough to teach America's kids!!!

    • The thrust of money towards computers and "technology" in the education system is one that has bothered me for some time as well.

      It's done with the claim that US kids will get "left behind" if they're not wired in and wired up 24-7. The claim is that we're educating kids on how to use computers for tomorrow.

      Have you ever seen a kid who didn't know how to work a computer after a few short sessions? Most of these kids are already on their way to becoming l33t hax0rz in a matter of weeks.

      We don't need computers for education we need education for education.

      Just because little Johnny didn't have 802.11(n) when he was a kid doesn't mean he's going to be working in the mill for the rest of his life. But forgo the hard sciences and the English books for laptops and you've given him a crutch forever.

      Clifford Stoll, the man who wrote "The Cuckoo's Egg" wrote, not too long ago "High-Tech Heretic." It deals with exactly this issue. He questions the "...relentless drumbeat for 'computer literacy' by educations and the computer industry..." His arguments on this issue are well thought out and did indeed change my mind about the roll of computers in the education system here in the US.
    • I don't know the current condition of Colorado schools, but Michigan isn't in great shape either. Michigan recently approved the distribution of laptops to every teacher in the state, but I hope to God they wouldn't think of giving out laptops to every kid in the state yet. I recently had the pleasure of doing volunteer work at some Detroit inner-city school districts, and many of these kids wouldn't have the slighest clue what to do with a computer, even the high-schoolers. I could think of 100 better things to do with that money than buying laptops. Our state needs to figure out how to keep schools from stinking like urine, having ceiling and walls that don't leak, ensuring more than 50% of students actually graduate from high school, and making heating systems that don't run on coal (yes folks, there are school districts in Michigan and Ohio that still use coal for heat) then maybe we could splurge on such luxuries as fancy laptops for every kid.
    • You sir are correct, They could save MILLIONS. Just give each kid a stick and a sandbox...

      But really.. 1000 bux per computer is a good buy, and they do include aircards, so the schools can save money on network wireing costs. The macs are also low maintence, so its easier for the teachers.

    • Or hiring teachers that made better than a C average in college?

      Let's see. We're talking about 38,600 students here. Let's say the average classroom size is 30. So that's 1280 teachers. Now lets say the laptops last 4 years. I think that's reasonable. $38.6M divided by 1280 divided by 4 is $7500/year. A nice bit of money, but do you really think someone is going to go into teaching because of an extra $7500/year? It isn't going to happen. You become a teacher because you love teaching, or because there's nothing better you can do. The difference between making $30,000 a year and $37,500 a year isn't going to sway you one bit.

  • Why Wireless Laptops? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by mustermark ( 104271 ) on Monday December 03, 2001 @08:53PM (#2651666)
    (Not a troll.)

    Most people don't have wireless network connections and laptops. Why is it imperative that the government pay to buy luxury items for the schools?

    I'm all in favor of spending money on education, but that means *education*, not laptops for stupid powerpoint presentations on Abraham Lincoln. (Bitter high school experience.) Why can't we buy the children better textbooks or pay the teachers more money. A laptop for every teacher and assuming ~20 kids per teacher is tens of thousands of dollars that could pay for more and better-qualified teachers and facilities.

    *Sigh* Maybe I just miss the good ol' days of playing Doom in the high school computer lab -- the old fashioned way, with wires.
    • Yeah I can't imaging what possible use a school-issued computer has for these kids other than to indoctrinate them into the mindset of writing all documents with Word and using Excel as a spreadsheet, database, address book, and everything else. Outside of computer programming classes and use of computers for scientific data collection or media production, I really don't see the need for lots of computers in a school. You could, for example, issue each school a smattering of computers with 486-class performance which would be perfectly acceptable for use producing documents or using the WWW. Add to that a dozen hot rod machines for things like video production, newspaper/book layout, and scientific computing. I think that might come in a hair under $11M, and still teach kids how to really put computer tools to work.
    • Well, it could actually be that it is cheaper to go wireless than It would be to hard wire every desk in the school.

      Or, it could be that the kids go from classroom to classroom all day, and it's better for them to be able to take their computer with them... And wireless prevents them from having to deal with snapping connectors in (and off) all the time.

      --T
    • Ibooks come with 802.11b, so its not an extra purchase. So the schools can actually save money by NOT putting in a large network. So they get good cheap computer, and save money on a network. Lots of people forget about other expenses on a computer lab.

      BTW, some high school experiences are much better, programming, typing tests, doing actual work, being a TA and grading assignments.

      Side note - Every kid should play Where in the world is Carmen Sandiego and wagon train.

  • Apple trying to make a comeback.. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by westphalia999 ( 306610 ) on Monday December 03, 2001 @08:54PM (#2651669)
    I believe Apple is selling the iBooks for $300 a piece (wish I could grab one for that price) so they are taking a loss on this one. Apple probably is betting that this will help them make a comeback in the school. It will be very interesting to see if they can pull it off (the other solutions that lost served up terminal apps and web pages over WAN connections) on a tablet type device. Unlike the other solutions however, I think Apple is doing the whole thing at a loss. As Mainers here know (myself included), this entire plan has not been without controversy. I for one think its a neat idea.
    • You forgot the most obvious reason Apple would do this at a loss:

      If Johnny grows up using a Mac in school, what kind of computer/OS is he likely to purchase after school? What kind of computer is he going to convince mom and dad to buy, so it's compatible with the files he brings home from school?

      MadCow.
      • What kind of computer is he going to convince mom and dad to buy, so it's compatible with the files he brings home from school?

        A PC. I had Macs growing up in school forever, but all I wanted was a PC. I may have been an exception though, after being a Mac zealot for a few years I took a programming class where we used DOS and I loved it. I just thought the command line kicked ass.

        But anyway, it's really a moot point these days, most people already have computers, and families are going to buy machines that will work with the files that mommy and daddy bring home from work, not the one junior brings home from school...

  • GOOD DAMN THING (Score:5, Interesting)

    by autocracy ( 192714 ) <slashdot2007@sto ... .com minus berry> on Monday December 03, 2001 @09:09PM (#2651735) Homepage
    I'm in Maine, and go to high school. We've been (me and school admins - the non-tech kind) anticipating this for some time. Most of the state is behind this, and it's another frontier being pushed that wasn't before. Maine was the first state to give internet to all its schools and libraries, and people laughed. Look - it's happening again!

    The area where I live (Lewiston) has a high school that is tech heavy and accomodates other high schools in the region. We've found that computers help out education a lot. (Yes, I did say I'm a student. But I like playing with tech and get my hands all over everything). The laptops should be a further boost.

    The idea is NOT to replace desktops, but to give people decent usable computers that they can carry. Nighmares will happen - they'll get dropped, stolen, broken, maimed, abused, and dead. What we want to see is if we can keep that to a minimum. And if it works, the wireless networks that are being planned should prove interesting. And if it doesn't work, then other states can save themselves the cash. I really believe it will work. And we're ready for it.

  • Luddites on a tech site. Huh. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by jpellino ( 202698 ) on Monday December 03, 2001 @09:11PM (#2651745)
    "We should have kick-ass laptops, but no one else needs them." - seems to be the tone here.

    Plenty of schools have plenty of laptop programs. They work. They have roughly 5% overstock for the repair stream. Remarkably few ever get run over by cars. iBooks don't need no stinking dongles 99% of the time.

    The kids do a higher level of work. Remember when your only vehicles for expression were book reports and clay-filled shoeboxes? Wanna go back to that? This is the direction the world is going. Once again, some want the kids to be last in line.

    There is no best way to teach, there is no best way to outfit a school. This you learn only by experience in a school. There are plenty of good ways, and this is one of them.

    I've been in education for 20 years. I've been running Mac & Win labs fo the past ten. Never had to unload a teacher machine because it was full. Kids, on the other hand, overdrive any machine you give them, and that's without games contributing to the fray.

    The guns or butter arguments don't wash either. If you weren't harping about spending school money before, don't do it now.
    Plenty of schools don't have laptops and still have lots of problems that - surprise - aren't being solved by anyone of their critics.

    Only thing that worries me - they'll lose these shiny white boxes in all that snow... tsk. ;-)
    • Now kids are carrying $1500 laptops? Isn't this dangerous for the kids?

      What about irresponsible kids ... are the parents held liable for the replacement cost like they are for books? I can remember losing a schoolbook or two back in my school days. I've worked with people that have lost notebooks. Ouch!

      This seems like a luxury some families can ill afford. I don't know how I feel about this trend yet.
    • Well, you have to admit there's been a lot badly-planned computer initiatives in our schools. Maybe you run a tight computer lab, but I've heard from a lot of students whose experience with school computers means using them as overpriced VCRs.

      But yeah, the concept of giving every student computer access at their own desks is a no-brainer. I'm not even going to try to imagine what all those kids in Maine are going to do with their new toys. God, I envy them!

  • This is really stupid, IMHO.

    These laptops are totally unnecessary. What a waste of money. The vast majority of teachers don't know what to do with the computers in the computer lab down the hall. How is that going to be improved by putting them in every backpack?

    Sure, computer literacy is important in the modern world, but so is writing and math. In fact, computer literacy without both of those to back it up gives you nothing but slashdot trolls. This is just as bad of an idea as letting kids use calculators in pre-algebra, and for the same reasons. How are kids ever going to learn the basics of anything if we keep handing them machines to take care of the basics for them?

    Computers in schools are great. I remember the first computer I ever got to use, a Commodore PET with a cassette drive that lived in the corner of my 4th grade classroom. You had to reserve it ahead of time to play games on it during recess. Unfortunately that's all we ever did with it. A few years later we had a lab with some Apple]['s that we could use to type up our essays, and by the time I got to high school those were replaced with PCs. Were they useful? Did I learn from using them? Sure, but not enough to justify giving every kid their own. 10:1 is a perfectly acceptable ratio, probably even less in more upscale neighborhoods where everyone has a computer at home.

    There was recently that linked the rise of the modern word processor with the decline of writing skills in college students. My fear is that these programs are just going to produce more of the same. Kids need to learn how to do stuff themselves before we hand them tools that do stuff for them.

    • The vast majority of teachers don't know what to do with the computers in the computer lab down the hall. How is that going to be improved by putting them in every backpack?

      Because the kids will know what to do with them, and can teach the teachers.

      Sure, computer literacy is important in the modern world, but so is writing and math.

      And of course, these are mutually exclusive goals.

      I remember the first computer I ever got to use, a Commodore PET...A few years later we had...some Apple]['s...Did I learn from using them? Sure, but not enough to justify giving every kid their own.

      And of course, computers and how computers are used haven't changed the slightest since then. I bet you walked uphill both ways to school, too.

      There was recently that linked the rise of the modern word processor with the decline of writing skills in college students.

      Witness this sentence as an example.

      Thanks for the insightful commentary. Now I'm convinced that it's those durn blasted computers that's keepin' our kids from lernin' nuthin!

      -jimbo

    • There was recently that linked the rise of the modern word processor with the decline of writing skills

      Indeed.

  • BC? (Score:2)

    by sporty ( 27564 )
    Wow.. that'd make an interesting.. beowulf cluster? (/dr evil)

  • The is absolutely no reason that you need a computer for education. I mean, I passed the AP Computer Science AB exam with flying colors, and the only time I touched my computer to learn that stuff was to find out that the College Board web site sucks. (The AP Computer Science AB exam has nothing to do with programming -- it's all logic and computer science, the way it should be.) Why couldn't these schools buy another computer lab? I doubt that everyone needs to be on the internet at all times.

    • I dont think its about buying another computer lab, its about buying computers. My kids school is still using Classic Macs and they arnt networked.

      BTW, network != Internet. Just cause the ibooks have 802.11b network adapters, doesnt make them networked. But it would be a waste to not use them, and save money on "NOT" installing a network.

  • iBook contract (Score:3, Interesting)

    by tsarina ( 456482 ) on Monday December 03, 2001 @09:30PM (#2651828) Homepage Journal
    You know, when it was Microsoft giving computers to schools, they were evil monopolists. Now Apple is doing essentially the same thing, but I hear no vehement protest. And as other people have written, the Apple presence in schools did have a considerable effect one what computers they wanted at home. Of course, Microsoft was using the offer to get out of the anti-trust suit, but the impact on the future consumers (formerly known as kids) is still there...

    Another testament to the bias of Slashdot, I suppose.

    • Re:iBook contract (Score:5, Insightful)

      by rlp ( 11898 ) on Monday December 03, 2001 @09:49PM (#2651910)
      Apple won a contract, they are selling laptops to Maine public schools. They had to respond to an RFP with a bid and beat competing bids (that most likely involved laptops using Windows). They won the bid based on technical merit and cost (by law).

      Microsoft offered to give (as in 'dump') software to public schools in exchange for settling class action suits against them. This has the effect of a) getting rid of a bunch of potentially expensive law suits, b) paying damages based on retail value of a bunch of MS software, and c) freezing Apple out of the competition for equipping a large number of schools.

      Big difference!
    • tsarina typed: You know, when it was Microsoft giving computers to schools, they were evil monopolists. Now Apple is doing essentially the same thing, but I hear no vehement protest.

      That's because Apple isn't a monopolist, at least. Some would argue not evil, but that's a moral judgment - the monopoly status is a fact established by law. Microsoft is a monopoly and must play by different rules than everyone else. Period. No dumping free products, no hooking kids at an early age. It's called level playing field and protected competition.

      Oh, and you forgot one thing - Apple is selling, not giving away. You get what you pay for, in this case.

  • In the greatest school expediture disastor of all time, 36,000 pre teens where beaten up on their way home from school and had there iBooks stolen.

    laptops, please. not neaded, easily breakable.
    how about we spend the money to teach children how to think?
  • There would be dancing in the streets of Slashdot, and verily all would be hailed as a happy slap in the face of Redmond. But since it's Apple, obviously they're wasting their money.


    Now where did that unbiased journalistic integerity go?

  • I posted regarding this story back when it was first announced. I still stand by my assertion that this money could be better spent to pay teachers/repair schools (but that might just be because I'm majoring in English with plans to teach). [slashdot.org]

    But, if Maine wanted to go with a laptop solution, I'd have to say that the iBook was a wise choice. I own an iBook, and I can say that this thing would be my primary choice for a situation like this (except for maybe Panasonic's Toughbook, but those cost far too much). Take note school districts:

    1) Durability - While I haven't actually dropped my iBook, it does live in my backpack when it isn't in use. I have dropped the whole backpack (no damage), and it has flown off the passenger seat when idiots pull out in front of my car (still no damage). I have walked with it under my arm in a hard rain (no damage).

    2) Heavily integrated - yeah, this isn't a good idea most of the time, but broken dongles will no longer be an issue. Neither will stolen NICs/Wireless NICs.

    3) Lightweight - As far as I know, the iBook has the lowest weight for a laptop in its price range. $1,299 retail for a 4.9 lbs. laptop is a helluva deal.

    4) Sort of bastardized security through obscurity - 95% of these 1337 7th and 8th graders don't know enough about Mac OS/mac hardware to cause serious damage. I can just see some jerk setting BIOS passwords or messing with clock frequencies or IDE device settings on little Suzy's PC laptop when she got up to go to the bathroom.

    5) Useable UNIX - escape the MS tax AND teach the kiddies some UNIX all at the same time (that was my requisite karma whoring). I could actually see this being fairly useful, though. Only give the kids user privileges in OS X, and make them find someone with root access in order to install programs. "Okay little Billy, tell me again why you need Starcraft for school use...". This also solves any problems that might stem from some jerk trying to erase important parts of the system.

    Overall, I think buying laptops is a waste of money, but I'd say that iBooks are probably the way to go.
    • Completely agree with you, just wanted to point out that the iBook's retail price is $1299; right now there is a $100 instant rebate, and there is always the $50 discount for students and schools, so they are paying no more than $1149, and I would assume that they are getting a volume discount.
      • Don't forget educational discounts.

        That's assuming, though, that Apple isn't just knocking a huge amount off the purchase price (another poster said $300 per iBook).

        The great thing for Apple is that it can afford to lose money now, if that means gains in the long run, so I wouldn't be surprised to see them doing something like that. I think $300 is a little low, but I wouldn't mind.

        Sure, they're trying to take over the market, but I'd rather a company take over the market by selling decent hardware to schools, instead of screwing customers and 'buying' a billion dollars of its own software for schools.

        --Dan
  • I guess it's nice that the students get the computers, but, at the risk of igniting the Apple vs. PC flame, I don't think that the iBook is much of a choice. I'll trot out the same argument that I use whenever I chat with my local primary and secondary educators about computers in the classrooms: While Apple computers are great machines and can do a lot of things very well, most of the world relies on PCs to do their work. What is the sense in providing children with an education on a piece of hardware that they will probably never see outside of their classroom (or maybe their home)?


    Now I'll back that up with what I think is a better argument against the purchase of these systems: Wouldn't the money be better spent on things like teachers' salaries, improvements to the classrooms, programs that promote the learning of basic subjects like math, science, reading, etc.? While I'll be the first to line up with those who say that throwing money at education isn't necessarily the best solution (take a look at California's test scores), if the money is going to be spent, I think that it ought to be spent where it will make the most difference.


    Let's also consider the issue of support for these computers. Who's going to take care of them when they get dropped, when the screen cracks, when software gets deleted, when the network connection isn't working...I could go on and on. Is the teacher going to fix the computer? The student? Does the school system have to hire network administrators? A whole new IT department?


    While I think that knowing how to use a computer has become an important part of American life, somehow I think that too many people have decided that computers are some sort of panacea for the classroom. I disagree. I think that an extra $38 million spent on education in a state the size of Maine could provide a significantly greater return by creating new and exciting programs designed to captivate and encourage children to learn. And establishing ongoing programs like these provides a benefit to more than just four years' worth of students...the kids who follow will benefit, too.


    Put simply, I'd say that while this program sure has a great gee-whiz factor, in the end, I suspect that it won't amount to anything.


    -h-

    • I won't argue about whether or not hey should be getting laptops, but if they are going to, iBooks seem to be a very logical choice; would you rather that they hadn't come from behind and beat Dell?

      While Apple computers are great machines and can do a lot of things very well, most of the world relies on PCs to do their work

      If you are using a PC at work, it is probably mostly for Office (and Solitare, but it has a quick learning curve), and the Mac and Windows versions of Office have near identical commands, so I don't see the issue, beyond the time it will take them to use the start menu.

      Let's also consider the issue of support for these computers.

      Part of this contract is that Apple will provide the training. The iBook is designed to be an extremely durable computer for people to keep in their backpacks and possibly drop, and Macs in general have a much lower TCO, so support would be less of an issue anyway.

  • Taking Maine's Economy Out of the Dumps (Score:4, Redundant)

    by Ethidium ( 105493 ) <chia_tek@@@yahoo...com> on Monday December 03, 2001 @09:46PM (#2651901) Homepage Journal
    Let's put this in perspective--This is a GREAT thing for Maine. Maine is, and has always been, one of the poorest states in the union; their major industries are logging and fishing (which are by no means big money-makers, at least for the laborers), and tourism, which is seasonal. Maine's proposal is not, as some have conjectured, to fill schools with laptops that would be "checked out" to the students -- no, Maine is GIVING every middle schooler in the state a computer, in a state where most families can't afford to buy their own. When the idea was initially proposed, some state legislators jeered that the money would be better spent putting a chainsaw in the hands of every schoolchild. But, despite the cynicism of those who believe their children have no hope of being anything but low-wage laborers, the state is equipping its students with one of the greatest tools they can have for success in a modern business environment. We should be celebrating!
    • Hmm, what's the difference between Maine and Silicon Valley? Maine has more trees and SV has more programmers. Software startups go where there are programmers to hire. In a few years nobody will be saying those laptops were too expensive!

  • Don't forget. (Score:2, Informative)

    by dimator ( 71399 )
    As long as they equip the machines with Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego, Oregon Trail, and Number Munchers, everything should be golden.

    Ahhh, memories...
    • Lemonade Stand... Not only was that my first hack, but also my first group programming project. We decided it'd be more interesting to learn about the economics of running a whorehouse. Who says computers can't teach kids anything?
  • I cannot imagine what kind of nightmare this will be when it comes to issues like non-technical hardware failure and theft. Does the state buy a big equipment insurance policy? Do you suddenly demand that every kid's parents become liable for a $1200 laptop, even if they haven't requested the item? I think this is going to cost Maine big-time when it comes to replacement of broken and missing equipment. And if you think libraries are under fire to protect internet-using kids from everything not-so-sanitary... hoo boy. You know those lame "perfect attendance" awards and whatnot they give out at the end of the year? Maine middle schools will have to add a few more:

    - First kid to destroy his laptop while beating up another kid and get a free replacement.
    - First kid to lose his laptop and get a free replacement.
    - First kid to realize he/she can fence his/her laptop and get a free replacement.
    - First kid to organize the use of 38,600 state-owned laptops to launch a DoS attack.
    - Kid who maintains the most heavily-trafficked node on the private gnutella network (can you imagine the sheeite 7th-graders would send around?).
    - First kid who gets the FBI coming to a school because he/she lent his/her laptop to a l33t older sibling.

    Any other suggestions?
  • around 90% of the computing world runs M$ software, what service is this school providing by giving these children something that will do them little good in the "real world"

    again its just Apple trying to muscle into the market by going through the school system...

    heres a hint apple, open up your hardware and reduce your price, THEN you can compete...

    • Re:Im a little late on this, but... WHY? (Score:5, Informative)

      by Wyatt Earp ( 1029 ) on Monday December 03, 2001 @10:22PM (#2652027)
      As a "Real World" educational technology person, I'll toss in my 2 cents on why we think it doesn't matter what OS kids use.

      In my experiance, kids can move between platforms (Mac OS 8-9, 10, Windows 9x, 2K/XP, Linux) with no problems at all. In fact at my work we in the IT group think it's better for the kids to be exposed to mulitple platforms because it assists them in learning how to deal with different things.

      For the Middle School grades, a Mac makes more sense than Windows for a number of reasons.
      1. iMovie - Easy as pie DV work.
      2. Office 2001/X - Works better than Office for Windows
      3. AppleWorks - Nice, easier to use "light" Office Suite for younger kids.

      If you think giving a Middle School kid an iBook will do them little good in the "real world", that's just FUD. A computer is a computer, what a 6th grader will be using when they get to the "real world" in 6-10 years isn't going to be what they are using today. Windows, Mac and Linux have changed a great deal since 1995 (5 years ago - when a 12th grader was in Middle School).

      If anything, concentrating on one OS through a child's school career will, if anything make them unable to deal with changes. In short, they will end up like the majority of thier teachers.

      As for the tired old "open Apple's hardware" speech...IDE, USB, Firewire, AGP, PCI - It's as open as most PC vendors, and alot more open than offerings by Sony or Compaq.
    • around 90% of the computing world runs M$ software, what service is this school providing by giving these children something that will do them little good in the "real world"
      100% of Macs run M$ software.

      So, what was your point again?

    • around 90% of the computing world runs M$ software

      And around 100% of the Mac computing world also runs Microsoft software. Word, Excel, Powerpoint, Outlook, Internet Explorer, WiMP, etc. The fact is that you can get just as much real-world computer experience with a Mac as you can with a Windows computer.

      Sure, Windows machines have tons of software that has been developed for them. Let me ask you one thing: how many programs do you typically use? 10? 20? I bet that for just about all of the programs you use there are either similar programs on the Mac, or there is the same exact program available!

      Not to mention that since MacOS X is out and doing very well, there are a ton of developers scrambling to produce programs for it. Another thing is that BSD is built-in to MacOS X. Can you say "huge world of open-source software with just a simple compile"? I knew you could.

      Macs do cost a bit more than a similar IBM-clone, but they also have a ton of added-value in the extras and attention to detail which comes with the platform. More and more people have been realizing this and have been trying Macintosh and loving it. This is a good thing, since with competition all of us benefit. Would you want to be the one to advocate giving the remaining 10% of the computing world to Microsoft without a fight? I didn't think so...

  • What A Complete Waste Of Money (Score:4, Interesting)

    by nuintari ( 47926 ) on Monday December 03, 2001 @10:35PM (#2652064) Homepage
    Okay, my mother is a 6th grade teacher in Ohio. And let me say, that because a corrupt state senators daughter was 4 when the law was passed, our schools got computers in the classroom starting with kindergarden, and worked their way up.

    Ludicrus as it sounds, not even the 6th grade classes, who now have SOME conmputers, use them for anything. The kids type reports, and play video games..... and surf for pr0n when my mother is not looking.

    Now they want all of our kids to have laptops?!?!?!?! What is it about our society and laptops. I own a laptop computer, I am a programmer, and I have poor handwriting, I use it quite often. And as a laptop owner, I feel qualified to state that very few people on this planet have any need to own one. There are many misconceptions about laptops that just drive me nutty. And the truth behind them them all are great reasons why laptops in elemantary and high schools is a really dumb idea.

    In our society, laptops are cute, small, handy computers. WRONG! In reality, laptops are small, slow, hard to handle, hard to service, and EXPENSIVE AS HELL. A touchpad is not like a mouse folks, that keyboard takes some getting used to, and they aren't exactly the most rugged pieces of machinary. Add all that togther, plus a complete lack of need in our schools for each student to have the ability to get his daily pr0n fix when he should be learning geomtry, and you have some politicians way of getting relected, at the taxpayers' extreme expense.

    I'm sorry, computers in schools right now barely get used, laptops will get misused, and mistreated, and eventually become worthless paperweights..... all at the taxpayers expense.

    Call me a complainer, cause I am.
  • At my school we have 4 computer labs that get checked out by classrooms for research and things. 1 computer classroom for things like web development, school paper, school tv show, etc. Then we have a mobile lab that uses iBooks and Airport that is a bring the lab to the classroom type of thing. I've never had the lab come to me, but the biggest use I've seen is in the library. They have all sorts of books and no room for computers, so there's only about 16 all-in-one's. So you can check out an iBooks and take it to a regular reading table. Good stuff.

  • I work for a school system in Ga that will be running several pilot programs in this upcoming year. Both Dell and Apple laptops with wireless capabilities will be bought. Both companies will be providing complete solutions for these "portable labs" that we plan on implementing. We already have 3 Dell portable labs that are in place, and their success is mixed.

    Our school system is very experienced in terms of technology, with every classroom consisting of at least 4 desktops and several computer labs placed throught the schools. There are approximately 50 schools in our school system with this setup. Every computer is on the network, every computer is used for educational purposes. Educational software is not compromised of Oregon Trail, Carmen Sandiego, and Word 97, as most readers tend to think.

    We use over a dozen software suites (most which run on both Windows and Macintosh operating systems) that allow for students to enhance and evaluate their reading, analytical, and mathematical skills. This software allows a child to be interested in reading, and be motivated to learn new mathematical concepts. The software is varied as the grade levels progress, and new skills are picked up by the student.

    With over 10,000 workstations in our network to support, adding many more laptops into the mix will allow students to be able to learn new skills while being able to work in a more comfortable environment. The initial testing will be with portable wireless labs that will several teachers to use the laptops. Pending the results of our pilot program, potentially every student will have their own laptop to use. No, the students will not get to keep the laptop, but they will be turned in at the end of the school year.

    I do not think that what Maine is doing is a bad idea, but if they cannot control the situation on how laptops are distributed, how the laptops are used, and how they are implemented to enhance the learning process, their program will be deemed a failure.

  • iBook a good choice for education (Score:3, Informative)

    by poiu ( 106484 ) on Monday December 03, 2001 @11:11PM (#2652177)
    You can complain all you want Apple is a minority or niche OS compared to MS in the business world. But seriously Word is Word.

    However, even more importantly Apple is a serious player in the education market, and a lot of educational software in K-12 is made for the Mac and the Mac version is better than the Window's ports --- so this isn't as strange of a decision as it sounds.

    It was an open bidding process [state.me.us], so Apple won this bid fair and square based on the merits of their bid (the software, the training, and the hardware).

    I'm so sick of hearing: a) its not MS so its a good thing and b) Apple is small so no one should ever use them. Its very important to use the right tools for the right jobs. And, in this case Apple legitimately sounds like its the right tool for the job.

    Apple's iBook [apple.com] is a tough little computer with all of the connectors built in so that there are no dongles & with integrated wireless networking, this deal will end up saving all the schools in the State of Maine a ton of money not needing to pull cable to each desk in each classroom in each school across the whole state.

    So, Congratulations to Apple. I hope that competition like this causes them to keep making better computers and make better deals.

  • I hope... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Have Blue ( 616 ) on Monday December 03, 2001 @11:40PM (#2652316) Homepage
    ...that no one who is saying that giving laptops to schools is pointless would be dancing in the aisles is they had been notebooks running Linux. Oh, wait, this is Slashdot. Silly me.
  • From reading through the posts on this you can get a sense for the age of most of the people posting. Somewhere between 14 and 17 who think they're 1337 for installing Linux (or probably just using Windows and bashing Microsoft). You can tell because their first computer experience wasn't with an Apple IIc they learned to write BASIC on. I also get a kick out of all the "Macs suck" posts. What is it exactly that is wrong with Macs?

    Apple won Maine's bid fair and square and I think it will work out pretty well. The iBook is a sturdy little worker that can connect to just about anything you can think of. Not only is it pretty durable but it is really light and easily fits into a backpack or messenger bag. As for the software, there's little MacOS can't do that Windows can do, especially OS10. It will connect to just about any sort of network you want to connect to, shit you can base your whole backend on any Unix system you want and OS10 will talk to it with no problems. The iBooks need not Microsoft because AppleWorks 6.1 and up read and write Office documents and will suit any sort of educational purpose you use it for. If you've ever cared to look which I can tell few of you have, there is a literal ton of educational software available for MacOS. Nearly all computer interfaces are pretty much the same damn thing. Whether the GUI is called Explorer, Finder, or X doesn't mean crap. They all act pretty much the same way. You press buttons and things do different things on your monitor. Web browsers and e-mail clients work the same way, there's little real difference between Lynx and OmniWeb when you get down to it.

    There are others who think giving laptops to kids won't help them learn anything. Have you seen Maine? It is a pretty damn rural place. I bet a good portion of the kids getting the iBooks would have never had gotten a computer at home. Giving kids the laptops is pretty cost effective if you sit and think about it. The demands of educational software aren't really changing a whole bunch past the "multimedia" phase. It has a moderate level of interactivity and a pretty small memory footprint. Thus it can be used a really long damn time. The 8th graders getting iBooks this year can probably still use them when they are seniors in high school. Besides longevity it isn't a particular OS you learn it is the computer concepts that are important. For an area not rife with computers in the home laptops for students makes alot of sense. Any assignment involving computers can be continued at home without much hassle. There's alot more to increasing teacher salaries than just diving up a lump of cash. Bitch to the unions about teacher's pay.

  • Wow, who knew? (Score:5, Funny)

    by sulli ( 195030 ) on Tuesday December 04, 2001 @01:04AM (#2652600) Journal
    Apple won a bid to provide iBooks? I bet the competition was really fierce.

  • OK, so this is a reply to a lot of comments here. I've just been reading the article and noticing that about half of the people here have something negative to say about this.

    This comment [slashdot.org] mentions that they aren't figuring out "pressing educational problems." I would personally say that they are: having been in schools where they had computers that were avaliable for everyone to use (even if they were just computer labs) they did many things to help the students, thereby alleviating some of the issues that seemed pressing at the time:

    1. Students don't do their work.
      Sure, some students don't do their work. Some don't do it because they find it overly difficult, others because they aren't good at it, and some out of pure laziness (such as my brother). Others didn't do it because they found the pencil (or pen) and paper based approaches too difficult. Writing becomes much faster when sitting in front of a computer. Research becomes easier - Google [google.com] is an excellent research tool (honestly - enter anything you happen to want and it comes up, and the most relevant stuff happens to be sitting right there). Much of everything seems to become easier because you aren't spending so much time dealing with the issues of, for example, copying an entire paper because you need to make 3 or 4 changes to it. Pop it up in your word processor, make the changes, print it out. Voila, done.
    2. Teachers can't keep track of everything.
      Of course they can't - they're human too. Do you expect everyone to know everything?
    3. The expense of the whole thing to begin with.
      I'm sure it's expensive. But giving students access to technology provides greater benefits than it really costs - see #1. Sure, the machines aren't PC's. [slashdot.org] But does that mean that they aren't going to know how to use a PC when one is placed in front of them? Remember that most (all) of these students have been around computers (or at least have known of their existance, and have used a few) all of their life, and could most likely navigate their way through Windows 3.1 just as easily as they could through MacOS, and just as easily as they could through KDE. The fact that they're not PC's is a non-issue. And the fact that they happen to be running MacOS is also a non-issue. See here [slashdot.org] for someone else's comments on the topic. And as for support, it's been done before. [slashdot.org]

    As for comments that claim that this whole thing is pointless [slashdot.org], they aren't pointless. See #1 in the previous section for some reasons why they aren't pointless. Beyond that, some other reasons:

    1. "... vast majority of teachers don't know what to do with the computers in the computer lab down the hall. How is that going to be improved by putting them in every backpack?"
      Well, now the teachers, at the very least, no longer have to compete for lab time: I know that while I was in high school, and we had access to many computer labs, the teachers would generally find some use for them. English classes: we would go type our reports. It was easier for the teachers to read and grade (because they didn't have to deal with illegible handwriting, which computers didn't help, but it's still no worse than it was originally to begin with), and easier for us to type as opposed to write because we didn't have to go through the repetitive steps of write, copy, copy, copy, (wash-rinse-repeat, you get the idea).
    2. "...computer literacy is important in the modern world, but so is writing and math..."
      Well, given that you really don't have computer literacy without either of the above in the first place...
      And furthermore:
      • Children who are intrinistically inclined to writing or other creative activities which can involve a computer will do more of it. All of a sudden, your hand doesn't get sore from holding a pencil for too long. The keyboard and mouse becomes your digital paintbrush and you can do whatever you want with it. And you didn't like what you just did? Oh well, that's what the undo button is for.
      • Children who are intrinistically inclined towards mathematics can do everything that they would want to do with a computer (besides for things like chemistry and other things which still have physical reactions and the like, where, at least I personally prefer holding the instruments and doing everything else rather than having it simulated on the display), and will likely start writing their own programs because they can do it (and, since writing code requires some mathematical knowledge, as a result they will still get their math skills).
    3. "... recently that linked the rise of the modern word processor with the decline of writing skills in college students ..."
      Maybe true. So go back to text editors. Or use older word processors that don't try doing everything for you.

    You aren't the only one. MacOS has always been a good operating system of choice for school desktops and laptops:
    1. Easy to configure for the school
      Everything you would want to configure is right there. Open up the Control Panel, and you get access to everything that would need to be configured for the machine. That's not enough? Every school that I've ever been at that uses Apple systems (post-Mac of course) has plenty of software to safeguard the system from the students so that they don't do things to the system to make it unusable for everyone else.
    2. Easy for the students to use
      Everything has a standard interface. Going from one program to another is easy, because they all follow the same UI guidelines. There isn't anything difficult to use about a Mac. They're designed for people who aren't necessarily the best with computers, but can be used by even the most knowledgeable people with little hassle and do the job well.
    3. Plenty of educational software
      Keeping in mind that plenty of schools have them, there happens to be all kinds of educational software for the Mac. Nowhere near as much as for Windows or Linux. Sure, one could use Windows for it, but now you've got machines that are suitable for word processing (and if they're trying to use ancient hardware with the latest software, barely suitable for that even) and little more. Same goes for Linux.

    And, sure, there is no need for computers in education [slashdot.org], but not only are they helpful to the teachers (every teacher of mine from 9th grade on up used a computer for everything from preparing lesson plans to keeping students grades to doing presentations for the class), but they're also helpful to the students (see #1 in the first section of this comment).

    Anyway, that whole long-winded comment is my 2c for this.

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