Slashdot Log In
"Linux is *the* threat," Says Microsoft
Posted by
Hemos
on Mon Nov 12, 2001 08:14 AM
from the halloween-part-two dept.
from the halloween-part-two dept.
Ami Ganguli writes "Anybody who works selling Linux into large accounts should read this leaked MS memo on The Register. Show it to your clients as well. The good news is that Microsoft is scared. The bad news is that these guys play tough. On the other hand, I've worked with IBM sales before, and they're no push-overs either." And it appears that they want to go after the the City of Largo as well.
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
Full
Abbreviated
Hidden
Loading... please wait.
Linux isn't the threat. Customers are. (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Linux isn't the threat. Customers are. (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Linux isn't the threat. Customers are. (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re:Linux isn't the threat. Customers are. (Score:4, Insightful)
When did Linux even have ground to lose? I find it funny when people say that Linux has "lost" or "is losing" "The Battle" (tm). It's not like they've been duking it out since the beginning of time. Linux-on-the-desktop is a relative newcomer to the scene, and despite the ups and downs of the various Linux companies, the number of Linux users has continued to grow steadily.
As far as I know, Linux has never lost any ground. But then, at this stage, there isn't really much ground to lose. Let's have this discussion again in 10 years when (let's make a hypothetical situation) Linux has 90% of the desktop market and Microsoft suddenly makes a comeback, pushing Linux to 89%. I would consider _that_ to be loss of ground, not anything going on presently.
Parent
clash of cultures (Score:5, Insightful)
Linux will always be there for anyone inclined to put it to use (unless it's outlawed as a terroristic tool). Windows will go the way of the dodo the minute Microsft pulls the plug.
Microsoft is playing a second neural circuit game based upon "territory", where for them to win, someone else has to lose. (And for them to lose, someone else has to win).
The people who truly get open source aren't even concerned with such matters. The develop what they have a need for -- and share the results with others. Everybody gains in that scenario -- except people who aim to profit by creating spurious shortages by controlling a resource.
Parent
Red Hat's Martketing (Score:5, Insightful)
Red Hat markets primarily to CFO's.
The basic issue is that people are migrating the majority of UNIX servers to Linux and Windows (Telecom being a major exception). Linux is picking up some of this market share and Microsoft does not like this. Microsoft has worked so hard to beat UNIX and when they win, along comes Linux to take away their prize-- server monopoly.
BUT-- businesses are no fools. Many prefer a heterogenous environment despite interoperability problems because it provides an exit strategy from a single-vendor solution.
Parent
Re:Ameritech tells the whole story (Score:4, Insightful)
I've been involved in enough IT architecture projects to understand that the technologies involved aren't always the driving factor to a project's success. Politics does a lot to aid or kill a project. And sometimes projects are labled as "wins" when those with inside technical knowledge know that it was really an utter failure.
Its very possible a Win2k solution managed to flourish where a Linux solution didn't. But its difficult to really get an honest picture of the case from an internal marketing memo from Microsoft.
Parent
No News Here (Score:4, Insightful)
No this is not a troll!
Re:No News Here (Score:4, Redundant)
Exactly. This is probably like every other motivational sales memo you've ever seen.
"[competitor] is the enemy. Make sure you never forget that, and focus on how bad they are and how good we are at [whatever we do]."
I don't see what the big deal is. Some middle-manager salesman guy writes that Linux is *the* threat, and all of a sudden this is MS' stance on the matter?
He's probably right, but that's beside the point.
Parent
Re:No News Here (Score:5, Informative)
Ian
Parent
He didn't even write that... (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, his quote simply said that "Linux is the threat" - no emphasis. Then, the register's article leads with the quote, adding a Nazi reference ("...memo to his Sales Brownshirts..."), and adding the "*the*" emphasis. Then, slashdot picks up the register's emphasis, puts it in the article title, and attributes it to Microsoft.
It's not news that slashdot and the register are anti-Microsoft, but they both lose credibility when they manipulate the words that they attribute as quotes from someone else.
Parent
Re:No News Here (Score:3, Interesting)
I submitted it, so I guess I'm biased. I agree that this isn't unusual. It's news because most people don't get to see how killer sales operations work (as I mentioned, IBM is also very agressive).
It's also useful for anybody who might be bidding against MS to have some insight into what they're up to. If you have a fortune 1000 client then it might be worthwhile to find out what their MS sales rep. has been up to.
Re:No News Here (Score:3, Funny)
Of cause the sales pitch avoids issues like licence lock in
bribery? (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:No News Here (Score:5, Insightful)
And what tips did he give? Be observant and ask questions. Use your knowledge of the customer to tailor a pitch to them. Gosh, I've *never* seen *any* vendor do that. How awful.
As for linux being the big threat, whatever. If Larry Ellison ever scored a couple of big sale with his thin client product you'd see a near boilerplate e-mail sent out telling the sales staff to watch out for them too. And it would have the same sense of urgency as this memo did. That's just the way this aspect of business works.
Parent
Re:No News Here (Score:5, Interesting)
I did: Ameritrade tried to migrate to Linux servers & failed. And once the CIO left (obviously due to the failed migration), MS marketroids swept in & convinced them to go with Win2000.
I'd like to know a little more about this failure. We need to learn from the mistakes made here, in order to improve Linux. (And when those Win 2000 servers start breaking, for the next person to come up with a better Linux/BSD implementation.)
Geoff
Parent
Sense of entitlement (Score:5, Funny)
"EVERY propritary Unix server out there is a Microsoft sale waiting to happen, gosh darn it! Every time one of those faithless IT people swaps in a Free Unix to replace a proprietary Unix... they're STEALING our sale! That's money taken from OUR pocket! Linux is to blame for the tattoos on my ass! EVERY TIME ONE OF YOU BEARDED, TEE-SHIRT-WEARING HIPPIE SCUM BOOTS Linux, MICROSOFT CHILDREN GO HUNGRY!!!!!"
Parent
MS has been saying this since 1998 (Score:4, Insightful)
In short, you're right: it's OLD news for most long-time
Parent
Right Right Right! (Score:5, Informative)
It does make a great platform for stressing where Linux has shortcomings again though. Linux calendar apps which support multiple users still seems like a weak area. I have yet to see anything that resembles MS Project on Linux, which would prevent even the technically inclined PHB's who'd be interested in trying the OS from giving it a shot. I think we should also leverage the Linux strengths by tieing all the remote administration potential of the OS into some GUI apps which could be used to propigate configuration changes and software updates across hundreds or thousands of machines on the LAN, possibly using broadcast packets. Updating an entire web server farm with a click of a button would be a pretty compelling feature and Linux is more that capable of it.
We don't have to write those customers that Microsoft has claimed either. We should be out there talking to them and asking them what they would like to see in Linux. Ask them what the OS needs for them to switch to it. Such feedback would be very valuable for enhancing this OS.
Parent
Re:No News Here (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't see why this is newsworthy..
Well, you've been reading Slashdot too long if you don't think this is newsworthy.
The Register thought it newsworthy, and I agree.
The reason is that the news is different. We're not talking about the typical sales pep drive where company X tries to beat company Y. No. Here we're talking about where Company X is attempting to drive out A Movement. That's different.
Not to mention the news worthiness of anything that Microsoft is doing. After all, they are the world's single largest software company and their product is placed on over 90% of computer desktops worldwide. And, recently they have been involved in some court proceedings where the outcome of those proceedings could have far-reaching effects on the company and on computing in general.
So, yes, it is newsworthy.
Parent
...and still we talk about microsoft again. (Score:3, Insightful)
I refuse to believe that those 'memos' escape microsoft non-intentionally.. it just sounds suspect.
just my
I doubt Microsoft is really bothered. (Score:3, Insightful)
Enter Linux.
Linux is not remotely a threat on the desktop - as long as it has multiple different GUI's and window managers and toolkits and all the rest, and a lack of a decent browser or office solution, it always will not be a threat.
On the server end, Linux is more of a threat, but Microsoft has never had a big slice of this market anyway. If anything FreeBSD is a greater threat than Linux in this arena, as it is better performing.
However, MS will always have a big place of the server market for as long as they produce a system that is easy to use. Not everyone can afford £60,000 a year for a Unix export, especially small businesses, to keep a server running. MS ensure that a boss can do such things part time - this has really driven the internet revolution, by opening access to the internet to many who would have been cut out by a skills shortage before.
All in all, I can see that MS are wary of Linux, but in truth they have nothing to worry about, as the two OS'es operate in different spheres, and don't really compete at all except in the minds of unthinking Linux apologists and Windows Advocates.
Windows will always have 95% of te market, MS need have no fear of that. The only way Linux will threaten this is if they start behaving in a more proprietry fashion by gearing things at the consumer and not at the Linux Geek.
Linux Compete Team (Score:4, Funny)
Oh! I volunteer for the Penguin Attack force[tm]. Can we have laser beams?
--
Rasher - use it in new amazing ways.
Is the reverse true? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Is the reverse true? (Score:3, Insightful)
I would say no. It may be argued that Microsoft may be a threat to RedHat, Mandrakesoft, Caldera etc. but they could never be a threat to Linux.
Linus would continue to maintain the kernel, GNU would remain hairy, and ESR would remain mouthy no matter how much ground Microsoft may take from us.
The only way Microsoft can threaten Linux is with crap like the SSSCA. Even then they can't use it to kill Linux, they could only force it out of the USA.
Re:Is the reverse true? (Score:5, Insightful)
> Is Microsoft *the* threat to Linux?
Yes. Linux is cutting off Microsoft's air supply. Microsoft will do everything in its power to kill Linux.
And it won't be sufficient, for them, to merely get Linux out of businesses; as long as it merely exists they will continue to see it as a threat. So expect them to continue throwing money at businesses, OEMs, governments, etc., and to continue "oops"-breaking standards. But most of all, expect them to lobby for laws that will break the OSS paradigm under thinly veiled concern for IP, security, etc.
After the DoJ cave-in it should be obvious that the only way for non-MS products to survive is to proactively destroy Microsoft. Unless you're vested in MSFT, you should be doing everything legal + ethical toward that goal (though there's no reason to suppose that MS will hamstring itself with the "legal + ethical" bit).
Parent
Re:Is the reverse true? (Score:5, Interesting)
But if we look at Free Software in the broader sense, the answer is that even Microsoft is not powerful enough to crush the Free Software community. It might be harder than before to use Free Software (because you cannot access some content on the Web, or you cannot use certain hardware), but this would only result in a return to the level of, say 1995.
Of course, there are threats to the Free Software community. The most dangerous one is abolishing the general purpose computer, i.e. a computer on which you decide which software you run and install. Abolishing the general purpose computer is certainly on the agenda of the copyright industry (look at all these copy prevention schemes), but it is not something Microsoft can do alone.
Parent
Why Win2K instead of XP? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Why Win2K instead of XP? (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
They are talking servers, not workstations ... (Score:5, Insightful)
The memo says nothing new, actually. Companies are shifting from expensive proprietary platform (SUN, HP, IBM) to commodity PC, which now have enough horsepower for most of the common tasks tasks low-middle servers are purchased for.
Without Linux, the 100% of these shifters would have gone in the arms of Microsoft. With Linux, they have to fight harder to get some of them.
All this was already true two/three years ago, but now Linux is more recognized, also thanks to some advertising effort mainly sponsorised by IBM, and PHBs don't frown (much) anymore when their techs are proposing Linux-based solutions.
This is why Linux it is considered _the_ threat for MS on the server market.
Parent
MS OpenMemo (Score:5, Funny)
Yes, and be sure to CC the person who leaked this memo!
Re:MS OpenMemo (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
Catch-22? (Score:5, Insightful)
I guess the good news is that it shows GNU/Linux is gaining in popularity, enough that it is now "the long term threat against [MS'] core business" but -- do we want Microsoft using its substantial influence to retard the development and implementation of GNU/Linux and related free software? This basically a direct assault by MS -- look at the language they're using: "wins against Linux", "Linux Compete Team", etc.
The free software community seems to be in a bit of a sticky point right now. We can no longer be completely ignored. However, the bigger we get, the more attention and fire we're going to get, and we're not really equipped to defend ourselves yet. It would nice to suddenly be the same size as Microsoft, to have that much power and influence, but the only way to get that influence is go through this very impenetrable gauntlet. It's a real Catch-22.
Look at what happened to, say, Napster. When no one had heard of it, it was great. Then the meme started to spread, and more and more people adopted it, and it eventually trickled all the way into mainstream news. And as it broke onto the mainstream, the RIAA immediately caught wind of it (well, they'd probably caught wind of it earlier, but didn't need to take action against it until it was getting too popular) and shut it down. It's sort of like underground bands that steadily gain in popularity for their genuine talent, then suddenly use that popularity as a wedge to sell-out and become yet another generic pop group.
Maybe GNU/Linux would be after all as a purely underground software phenomenom. Then the people who really need a free operating system can make use of it, without attracting fire from biased mainstream news outlets or monopolistic evil corporations. Maybe it's time to stop trying to position the growth of Linux as a "good" thing -- after all, you don't see ISO groups writing up Warez Advocacy FAQs, do you?
Of course, there's really nothing we can do to STOP people from adopting Linux. It's just part of the cycle of things. The underground, real coders start an operating system (remember, DOS and Windows were the new kids on the block once), it gradually spreads to more and more people, it starts getting compromised by the mainstream, the underground jumps ship, the platform soon dies without the support of the underground, and the underground begins its work anew.
To continue the MP3-sharing-software analogy, look at how Napster was abandoned in favor of Morpheus and Audiogalaxy. Now everyone knows about and is using them. So the RIAA sues them, and they've started to crack down. Now we'll have a bit of a "dead" period, but soon they'll be another wave coming out of the underground.
It's all cycle.
Re:Catch-22? (Score:5, Insightful)
There is no comparison with Napster.
Napster was blatantly illegal and deserved to be shut down. It was just a warez site for music.
If people were trading free music that would be different. Some artists produce free music and it is up to the public what they choose to listen to.
Parent
Re:Catch-22? (Score:5, Insightful)
Here's the thing: free software is immune to Microsoft's normal kind of attacks. They can't buy it out, and although they can out-market it, the best and original Linux marketing was all word-of-mouth. Microsoft can't destroy free software as long as there remains one free software developer. They can only hope to contain it by competing on the basis of price and features. And competing with something that's free will eventually sap their strength, one way or the other.
Parent
Unix (Score:4, Insightful)
And the worry is not to do with TCO and administration and operations, areas in which many people believe Unix has a clear advantage (altho' Windows 2K and XP are catching up fast). It's the porting of existing applications, which is perceived to be easier from Unix to Linux than it is from Unix to Windows. But remember that you can buy tools (MKS Toolkit for example) that make it very easy to do, and that Rogue Wave et al sell APIs that make it easy, and that in a world of Java/EJB, the virtual machines on Windows are very good indeed - often faster than VMs from the same vendors on Sun.
So what I'm saying is, Microsoft are taking Linux seriously, like they take *all* existing and even potential competitors. And, my general feeling from reading sources like
Re:Unix (Score:4, Insightful)
areas in which many people believe Unix has a clear advantage (altho' Windows 2K and XP are catching up fast)
According to whom? MS? I think not, as these OSs grow they are also growing in bloat, stability may be increased, but the ratio of people needed to babysit those machines is far greater than *nix. Also the overhead of running those system means that you need more hardware to achieve desired performance. Neither is a big TCO plus. For large scale systems, I don't know of anyone who's pushing MS for TCO reasons. They're simply not viable
areas in which many people believe Unix has a clear advantage (altho' Windows 2K and XP are catching up fast)
WHAT?!? Which VMs are you speaking of? We justified migration to Linux based solely on speed tests (very basic tests) of Java on MS vs. Linux and Sun. Sun on SPARC wasn't really fair given HW differences, but Solaris and MS on Intel were neck and neck with Linux outperforming both by a comfortable margin (which suprised me all around).
I haven't seen many J2EE deployments on MS. Developed - yes, deployed - no. Why would someone want to? You develop something that runs on multiple plaforms and then deploy on the Lowest Common Denominator. Why?
I agree with you on the *nix front though. I think that much of the growth of Linux has been at the expense of lower-end *nix systems. The word is that Linux may not be eating away much at MS server numbers.
However, I've had 3 projects in the last 1.5 years replacing MS solutions for J2EE on Solaris and Linux, so I think there is migration which will catch up to MS at some point. This is not a battle to be won overnight...
Parent
Funny, funny Brett (Score:5, Funny)
*cough* reliability *cough* (Score:5, Informative)
god knows i've seen countless articless there where they've just been entirely wrong.
What's the fuss, Gus? (Score:3, Interesting)
MSFT didn't get where they were today by ignoring rivals and pretending they don't exist so I don't see why this memo should come as a shock to anyone. Frankly, what would have surprised me is if there were no internal emails flying around concerned about the growing popularity of Linux and how to tackle it.
Treating Linux Users like a Disease (Score:5, Funny)
1. Carriers --> the pre-installed masses out there who love the OS and tote it everywhere they can. You can't cure a carrier with the M$ vacciene, because they're stuck with the disease for life, for free, and don't even understand that its a problem, because they typically show none of the symptoms.
2. Infection Vectors --> You can also spot evangelists, who might not be the best users or carriers around, but they sure do love to spread the word, show the symptoms of the "disease" of Linux, and make serious threats to Microsoft's soverignty.
3. Symptoms --> Ranting about Emacs vs. Vi, BSD vs. GNU, wearing funny tee-shirts, or having epileptic fits about free software costing literally nothing at work, at home, during spare time, on dates, etc. People who do not learn to tame these symptoms can end up becoming terminal geeks, even if they are recovering Windows users.
Which is probably why Microsoft sales people have to spot the companies with even a single Linux user, because they KNOW Linux will spread if left untreated.
For those of you trying to push Linux (Score:4, Informative)
OK, Marketing it is then. (Score:4, Insightful)
Maybe Linux needs a large advocacy site or two that specifically does these things:
1. List companies/organizations that have switched to or are created new uses for Linux.
2. Allow those companies to post their own progress reports, the good and the bad.
3. The linux comunity could provide anything from advice to development support for these companies.
4. Advocates could point to this site as a Linux testamonial and direct rebuttal to the same type of stories that MS uses. By showing the good and the bad it displays honesty (Which MS can't do) and by showing support activity, they see that there really is good support, and that bad senarios can be corrected with enough people available at your fingertips.
I know lots of this type of support is available through news groups and other channels. I suggest this specifically as a commercial/sales type operation. It should be big and well advertised and pointed directly at the corporate officer, with specific examples of problems found and solved. This is MS home territory. Lets get the battle off our terf and onto theirs.
This is SPIN for the judge (Score:5, Informative)
Then in a secret meeting between Microsoft's attorney (a former Reagan appointee) and the lead attorney for the DOJ (a current appointee), a deal less restrictive than accepted prior to the trail was accepted without the state's knowledge.
This is an op-ed piece supplied for the consumption of U.S. District Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly. As we start to enter the 60-day review period, this will give Microsoft more leverage to indicate they do have competition and the deal is fair. Of course, the exclusions put into the deal also ensure Open source will not be considered a legitimate third party to receive any advance notice or right to information.
In addition, they can force those who do have 'the right" to sign non-disclosures, under the guise of ensuring security, and sue anyone attempting to provide access to open source. Then they begin legal action against anyone who uses the information to enhance open source.
While it may make us "feel good" to know we are considered a threat, we are not. A threat is something you do not have a solution for. They have a solution and it is about to become a legal document by which they can exclude all open source from access.
Consider how far we could push Linux, BSD, etc... into an environment where merely communicating with the existing NT network would be considered illegal. A simple API change we cannot mimic or duplicate and they can tie it up in court for years. The mere specter of such possibility will keep us out of many shops.
Now is the time to re-read Ralph Nader's letter [cptech.org] and create your own. Keep it specific to the agreement, factual and polite. This will become a legal document, not an editorial or slashdot forum. Revise, reread, and revise some more. When the 60-day period begins, print it off, and mail it. Start working on it now to be ready when the time comes.
Note to editors: can we put up a forum where people can post their letters for comment?
Is it real? (Score:5, Insightful)
Brian Valentine exists at Microsoft, he's the Senior Vice President of the Windows Devision [microsoft.com]. Would he address his colleagues in such a way? Why not.
JB Were's web site is partly dysfunctional, so not much information on this one. The City of Largo has just succesfully migrated to KDE desktops at the end of August [consultingtimes.com]. It's a bit hard to believe that they switch again after such a short time, and that his wasn't addressed in Valentine's memo at all (maybe it's about the servers, who knows, but then things would be really, really bizarre). Ameritrade has already been a Microsoft customer [microsoft.com].
So, if this one is faked, it was faked in a much more credible manner than the previous NTs.
Linux Isn't the Threat (Score:5, Insightful)
Having salespeople trying to win business in the fractionally tiny sliver of the leftover 10% of the market "people who are migrating from unix to linux" is freaking lame - what about the rather hefty and lucrative segment "people who aren't migrating to XP because it doesn't offer anything compelling"?
Microsoft should be spending its billions generating new demand, not trying to take its 90% market share to 92.5%. Where are the golden oldies, like voice recognition, speech synthesis, handwriting recognition, not to mention all the crazy stuff that no-one's dreamed up yet? Where are the VR interfaces, massive dataset visualisers, database filesystems, all built to smash my machine into whimpering shards and only run on XP(tm)?
The only killer app driving upgrades seems to be games, and MS seems to be further stagnating that by shifting games like Halo to the XBox. If a PC version of "uber-Halo" required a P4 2Ghz & Windows XP, gamers from here to Osaka would be selling their livers to get on board, economic downturn or no.
So Linux? A tiny dot in comparison.
shut up man
Installability (Score:5, Interesting)
I work as a IT person. In the last two months I have done ~10 linux and ~10 windows installs.
Total problems that caused install to take more than 2 hours with WinNT/98 - 6
Total problems that caused install to take more than 2 hours with RedHat 7.1/7.2 - 1
I'm not the average person, but if you just want to pop a cd in and go, redhat is MUCH better than any MS OS has ever been (although I haven't been able to try the XP install).
City of Largo Still Seeing Penguins (Score:5, Informative)
leaked memo' and wanted to let those interested know that in no way has our roadmap changed.
We were contacted by Microsoft, and they asked questions about how we have deployed Linux and what issues are keeping us from using more Microsoft products. We expressed concerns about licenses, and about the number of people that can be run on Windows in a centralized environment on the same hardware (about 1 to 5 compared to Linux) and how many more people we would have to hire if we moved in that direction. We had a short meeting with them to review the XP product line and see it running in person. We have some stand alone PCs that are running at our library for patrons and at some point those machines probably will be running XP, so we wanted to check it out. We also run some Citrix/WTS products on NT and wanted to review what their plans are for the future to ensure we can continue to run those programs.
We are still seeing Penguins for almost everything running here and in fact there are 3 servers sitting 15 feet from my desk that are spinning RedHat 7.2 right now and being prepared to enter production.
Nothing has changed...and we certainly appreciate those people that cared enough to drop us a line.
Dave Richards
City of Largo, FL (Yes, "City of Progress")
Systems Administrator.
When did this become a fight? (Score:5, Insightful)
You know that Ghandi quote that people who take Linux a bit too seriously love? The one that begins "First they laugh at you..."? The wisdom behind those words is that once you become an active participant in a so-called "battle" of this type, then you have lost. The quiet revolution is one that eventually bubbles to the surface because it is _honest_. People going about their lives, doing what they believe in, is a powerful thing. It is more powerful that calls to arms and out-and-out zealotry. In fact, the latter often tends to get people away from what it was they believed in in the first place; they get swept away by the grandeur of the "war," and no longer represent their original ideals.
Linux was interesting when it was the honest bubbling up of what was perceived as a better solution by some people. Now that there has become obvious and pointless fighting between Linux users and Microsoft, it isn't Microsoft that has lost...it is Linux. All this energy devoted toward hating Windows, talking about Microsoft, putting down XP, and as a result a large, large segement of Linux users have become these aimless zealots who don't even know why they use Linux any more other than to crush Microsoft. And as such, Linux has lost.
Re:Good luck, MS (Score:3, Insightful)