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Debian

Progeny Debian Halts The NOW Project 92

Posted by Hemos from the bad-econoomic-times dept.
nicedream writes "Debian Planet is reporting that Progeny is killing the NOW project. " A reader also submitted the actual e-mail from Ian Murdock ? . It appears that the current economic climate has had an adverse effect on Progeny - which is not surprising. Ian's also got some musings on the state of computing/networking, which outline some of the thoughts behind the NOW project.
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Progeny Debian Halts The NOW Project More

Progeny Debian Halts The NOW Project

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  • NOW has been going downhill since Patricia Ireland resigned late last year.

    It's a shame really...someone needs to continue their good work.

  • Not surprising... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Brad Wilson ( 462844 )
    The market can't really stand the development of yet another OS right now. It's got some interesting design ideas, but it's all pretty much smoke and mirrors until we can see an actual working design. *shrug* I guess we'll just have to wait...

  • From Article (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 31, 2001 @09:48AM (#2238753)
    "Project has been renamed 'LATER'"

  • The Value of Progeny (Score:4, Interesting)

    by TellarHK ( 159748 ) <tellarhk@NOSPam.hotmail.com> on Friday August 31, 2001 @09:51AM (#2238770) Homepage Journal
    About two days after the release of Progeny for download, I grabbed a copy. It immediately became my distro of choice, beating out Redhat, SuSE and Mandrake soundly. I really like the Debian package management, and apt-get is just wonderful. But the thing that impressed me most about Progeny was the simple, but still capable install process. I can get a machine up and running with Progeny quite a bit quicker than with my SuSE distro, and it's a lot less of a hassle to upgrade using the Debian packages.


    I really didn't even know what NOW was, until... well, now. But I think Progeny offers plenty of value even without something that ambitious on the horizon.

    • Hi

      I know this is (slightly) off-topic, but maybe of interest anyway...

      recently I've been looking for an alternative to Mandrake (now running 8.0 with kde2.2), so I've been checking out the web-sites of Suse, Debian and now also Progeny Debian...

      One thing both debian and mandrake have in common is a convenient way to get security updates. With suse and progeny, the process of getting updates and security fixes isn't very clear from the website. (they may have a similar tool/service like MandrakeUpdate or dselect, but I don't know if they check mirrors and security sites...)

      So I guess the createria for selecting a distro, for me are:

      • ease of use/install
      • up-to-date apps/gui
      • security fixes and upgrades in one simple app
      • text-based configuration and package tools
      • ... (probably a lot more, but the above are most important)

      Of course Mandrakeforum [mandrakeforum.com] is very interesting and useful for news and tips. I think more distros should have them!

      • One thing both debian and mandrake have in common is a convenient way to get security updates.

        Indeed, if you're tied to a GUI. Don't get me wrong. I love Mandrake (and am typing this with it now), and have been using it for a few years (or so) now. The biggest thing I hate about any RPM based distro is the dependency hell that is easy to fall into.
        Debian-based distribs have this super-easy-to-use-and-love-app called: apt. "apt-get install upgrade". What can be easier than that to get the latest updates? Well, guess what: Conectiva Linux (from Brazil) [conectiva.com] reworked apt-get to work with RPM. This is SO wonderfull. Not all distribs have caught on, but MDK was the first (that I noticed) to notice Conectiva's work.

        Enjoy! [rpmfind.net]

        P.S.
        Read the man page for use... (man apt-get)
      • >With suse and progeny, the process of getting >updates and security fixes isn't very clear from >the website.

        In the case of Progeny, no, it isn't very clear at all... but it is there, and is actually the same process as Debian.

        Add this to your sources list...
        deb http://archive.progeny.com/progeny updates/newton/

        Then do the usual apt-get update, apt-get upgrade.

        (On the website, go to "development", then "Progeny Debian", then "Debian Security Advisories". The info is all there. I think the website needs a redesign... a bit of an adjustment to accomodate users of their distro a little better. It's quite sparse at the moment.)

        Hope that helps!
    • Really! I've tried to get Progeny to run on my machine for the past few months. I got fed up so I found a Stormix ISO and installed it in about an hour. Progeny did not work. I've used RedHat, Debian, Storm, and SCO and I can get all of them to work, but Progeny just would not work.
  • from the pressrelease:

    >Most new hires came in to work on projects that had the potential to bring in revenue sooner than NOW,[...]

    awesome... progeny may have a time machine.

    too bad though.. I just installed progeny debian, and it works like a charm :). but looks like the distro isn't quitting at least.

    //rdj

  • Question. Did anything come of it? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by mcc ( 14761 ) <amcclure@purdue.edu> on Friday August 31, 2001 @09:54AM (#2238783) Homepage
    Interesting. I have never heard of this "NOW" thing, but wish i had.

    The direction i would like to see this /. discussion take is this: So, what came out of NOW? How far did they get, and is it far enough that there's something interesting there for the hobbyist faction to take up and continue work on as a volunteer project? Is there any code written, are there any design documents that have been released..? Does Progeny's withdrawal from this project mean it is dead, or simply that work will not be continuing at the same sustained rate? If there are design docs out there, are they complete enough that semiprofessional volunteers could finish the project from here without buggering it up horribly?

    Just curious.

    • Yeah, but not all that much... (Score:4, Informative)

      by raulmazda ( 87 ) <adam.lazur@org> on Friday August 31, 2001 @10:26AM (#2238891)

      When most of the developers were moved off of the project the only real code that was in a state that it was done was nullfs [progeny.com]. The design of the rest of things had been done, and John Hartman had a rapid prototype of the token system done in tcl, but very little other coding was accomplished.

      I don't think that the code that exists is interesting enough (or substantial enough) for a hobbyist to pick it up and run with it.

      I'm not sure if Progeny will release the design docs...

      Though I may have a negative outlook on things... I ended up being reassigned to doing Web Monkey stuff instead of working on NOW (which was the whole reason why I left my prior job and went to work at Progeny).

  • IMHO, one reason why Progeny halted NOW is because NOW is pretty revolutionary (a.k.a. a real inovation), and the market isn't used to this.
    The market is used to Microsoft style inovations, meaning repackaging old ideas and selling that at inflated prices.

    Lets hope that the market will change in the next few years, so that something like this will become feasable.

    Until then, we could start an open source project with the same goal.

    With Progeny halting NOW and the failure of Corel Linux, has any commercial product based on Debian ever been succesfull ?

  • NOW is more than just Progeny... (Score:4, Informative)

    by cperciva ( 102828 ) on Friday August 31, 2001 @09:56AM (#2238788) Homepage
    Progeny may have terminated their NOW project, but Progeny was not the first, and will not be the last to build NOW clusters.

    Please, when refering to this, call it the Progeny NOW project, to distinguish it from the NOW project [berkeley.edu].

  • Patriarchal society (Score:3, Funny)

    by pogofish ( 514289 ) on Friday August 31, 2001 @09:58AM (#2238801) Homepage
    Who do these people think they are? Killing the National Organization of Women [now.org]! The Progeny of white, middle-class, men, that's who. Rise up, my sisters, and fight the system!
    • A man without a God thinks he is God.

    • Re:Patriarchal society (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Who do these people think they are? Killing the National Organization of Women [now.org]!

      Actually, it's National Organization FOR Women. Sure it's a carpet-munching organization, but when refering to this group of dykes, please get the name right.

      Note: I have nothing against lesbians. Actually, quite the opposite. If I'm not the one going down on the chick then hey, it's cool if another woman is and they just let me watch (And join in for some 3some action fomr time to time)
    • A man without a God is like a fish without a bicycle.

      I thought that was changed to "a woman without a man is like..." in the 1970s.

      Fight on, sister!
  • I recently installed progrny linux and let me tell you, if I had this distribution last year, I would have been hooked on debian linux that much quicker. The install is smooth and nice, and it makes a perfect introfuction to the newbie who want to learn linux.


    Anyway, I was in the libraries and surprised that they had some linux books. But I noticed that most of the CD's were missing. So Recently, whenever I find a book on programming or on linux I'll burn some ISO and put them in the Back of the Books. The librarians I've talked to acutally understand what I am doing and are fot it.

    So, if you can burn CD, I would recommend Linux Progeny as the newbie Distribution of choice and put it into as many libraries as you can.

    Anyway thanks for reading

    • That sounds like a good plan, but don't you think it will be a little confusing for a newbie to get "RedHat Linux for Dummies" with a Progeny Linux disc inside? Most of the Linux books I've seen come with ancient versions of RedHat or Slackware. Heck, if you installed Linux from a book you found at the library, you might be getting code that's three or four years old at this point, and get a very different impression of how easy to install it is.

  • Re: What's wrong with the editors? (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Yeah, I agree. Your point about michael is particularly true.
  • Most new hires came in to work on projects that had the potential to bring in revenue sooner than NOW
    sooner than NOW? I hope my boss doesn't learn how to do this.
  • We all made fun of the Dilbertian e-commerce sites that went under because they were idiots and then blamed "the economy". And yet here we are accepting the same argument from "Progeny" and their "NOW project". And how do I know they were idiots? I've never ever heard of them. I read all the major Linux sites, and I never had them or their project catch my eye. I subscribe to the Debian Weekly News and AFAIK they've never been mentioned.

    If you want somebody to care about your product, you'll have to first tell them what it is (or at least that it exists).
    • We all made fun of the Dilbertian e-commerce sites that went under because they were idiots and then blamed "the economy". And yet here we are accepting the same argument from "Progeny" and their "NOW project".

      Just because an idea won't show a profit in the next quarter doesn't mean that it's idiotic.

      Of course, if your entire business plan will never show a profit, even in the middle of a boom, then you deserve to perish when the going gets tough... but you can't fault companies like Prodigy for not being able to afford speculative ventures like this in the current investment climate.

      In fact, I'm surprised they're still around... given the fates of some of the other companies in the Linux 'industry'.
  • Progeny, why not just put the source on your servers, have one person coordinating the project and see what happens ?

    Also if someone can explain me the differences between NOW and beowulf clustering.

    M.G.
    • I don't think open sourcing such a project would be in the best interests of Progeny at this point. From what I gather, NOW was being designed as an integrated network filesystem distribution of Progeny. Think AFS with Progeny's autoinstaller, then add more remote management tools and probably a "push" style of software management. Basically, they were trying to create a Systems Administrator/Manager's wet dream. That type of project has some major commercial potential.

      We know there's a difference between the term Open Source and Free Software. It is conceivable that Progeny may Open Source the software sometime in the future, but one of the reasons they are developing this internally is so they can have more control over the direction of the project. Once the software is in the Alpha stage, I bet we'll see it. Still, I wouldn't begin to guess at what type of licensing scheme they'll use. They may even surprise us and GPL it. Then again, we're talking Ian Murdock here. It may not be a surprise at all if they GPL it. ;-)

  • Does anybody actually use their dist?
  • How is NOW different from Mosix ?? Mosix offers solutions that can take your processes across the network and process them on computers that are not busy. Making your whole network look like one giant scalable computer. How is NOW different from this?. Mosix is working and available. Maybe Progeny should have worked with the mosix team instead of reinventing the wheel. Also it would be a lovely day indeed when we'd get to have Plan 9 like namespaces into the linux kernel. Making it a truly network OS. lets hope someone bitches bout it loud enough so that sometime in the near future ( 2.5 ?? ) linus would think about it...
  • This revolution began on the shoulders of the

    insane, people like Richard Stallman, who hold so

    firmly to their points that everyone who doesn't

    get the point says "oh, i get it, he's insane."

    Then a whole bunch of money got thrown at us, and

    everyone tried to make us insane people the

    saviors of the world. Now that is collapsing, and

    it's back on the shoulders of the insane [colorforth.com] folks to carry

    the free [fsf.org] software/open [opensource.org] source revolution.

    I say, welcome back. I prefer the company of

    geeks who work for no money anyways.

  • I'm all for Linux companies trying to focus on things that will be profitable. We all know there has been a shortage of that.

    As for Prodigy, they have per-incident support (which strikes me as a doable, though not glamorous, business). And they have their pay-for-apt-get thingie (or their version of the Red Hat Network, or whatever you call it). I'm not so much opposed to that concept, it just seems that a lot of people are doing it poorly, rather than actually making the concept work (no experience with the Prodigy one in particular).

    Hope they make it, in one form or another.

  • Because of its long-term horizon, the NOW development efforts often took a back seat to the needs of other projects. Most new hires came in to work on projects that had the potential to bring in revenue sooner than
    NOW.


    They want revenue sooner than now? Wow, talk about impatient!! They want revenue Yesterday!!

    • They want revenue sooner than now? Wow, talk about impatient!! They want revenue Yesterday!!

      I myself am not that unrealistic -- ten minutes ago will be just fine.

      :)
  • Maybe they'll do NOW later.
  • Its a shame that Progeny's NOW project is on hold. The project had great promise. (Progeny as a distribution is still quite nice; I have it running on several machines.)

    GNU/Linux desperately needs a single-system-image infrastructure. It seems that too few Linux devlopers have experience with large networks of workstations. I have yet to see any distribution take advantage of the fact that other machines on the network are already up and running. I'd like to see an installation prompt to the effect: "I've detected a cluster of machines on the local network. Do you want me to merge as a member of this cluster?" Instead, you have to reenter all the configuration information again and spend days setting up network file systems and network authentication. Why isn't LDAP the default, out-of-the-box authentication method? NFS at least is a no-brainer, but leaves lots to be desired for clustering. NIS packages are generally primitive and require a fair amount of hand configuration (with poor documentation in my experience). LDAP is far worse. (It should be as simple as DHCP---"Ah, there's an LDAP authentication server on this network. Should I use it?")

    There is hope. See compaq's SSI project [sourceforge.net]. It may well be that the open-sourcing of proprietary cluster infrastructure is what drove Progeny to put their NOW project on hold.
  • "This is NOW, sir. Everything you see NOW is happening NOW."
    "Go back to THEN."
    "We can't."
    "Why?"
    "We missed it!"
    "When?"
    "Just NOW!"
    [pause]
    "When will THEN be NOW?"
    "Soon."

  • The reasons for NOW, as mentioned by Ian, seem very much in line with what Plan9 [bell-labs.com] tries to do. Wouldn't effort be better spent in developing:

    a. Further documentation, especially for newbies. This would not only further Plan9's exposure, but also introduce more people to the really interesting and quite remarkable concepts on which it is based. Even further, any sort of demos or tutorials would be fantastic, since a lot of us get stuck into particular habits of computing and have trouble exploring new ways of doing things (which Plan9 seems to do all over the place). Plan9 is not targeted for a wider audience, but I feel confident that it would be possible, as well as beneficial, to achieve widespread exposure, if not acceptance, of it.

    b. More apps and drivers. I'm not an expert, but from what I've seen it shouldn't be too difficult to write for the OS, since the existing source code is well documented (there's even a detailed, step-by-step walk-through of the kernel code!), and for those who might be able to write video drivers (which are especially needed), the features that need to be implemented or made available are very few. Plan9 seems really usable for those lab guys, and I bet with some more drivers and a few apps, it would be quite usable and accessible to the rest of us.

    I'll admit that I have little personal experience with Plan9. I haven't had the time needed to invest in learning how to use it and how it works. But having recently read much of the available documentation (articles [bell-labs.com] and man pages [bell-labs.com]), I have gotten pretty darn excited about it and am planning to begin a more concerted effort in the near future.

  • From the description that I read, the principle feature of NOW was a networked filesystem that supported disconnected operation too. Now isnt that exactly what Coda does? Why the desire to re-invent the wheel?

  • I am an IT Manager in a 98/2000 shop and have been keeping an eye of the NOW project for some time. Some friends and I were planning on doing some small time consulting setting up these networks. The NOW project sure had a lot of potential to blow anything any other company was offering out of the water both administratively and from a users point of view. It would have been a pretty easy sell to a lot of small businesses (assuming the price wasn't outrageous).

    Well, all I can say is I hope this project is finished one way or another. It saddens me to see something that could so easily revolutionize go away like this. Wanna talk about innovation? This is truely it (erm at least adaptation to something that really works for business).

    I don't think many people realize how much this could have benefited the Linux community. Progeny NOW is needed NOW!

  • Never heard of NOW until now. Went over to the Progeny website to read about a dead project. Not much information there, just a bunch about how it is on indefinite hold. I had to read through a bunch of slashdot postings to finally find a description of it. Sounds good and would be a Good Thing (tm) for linux. Too bad it's sacked.


    Then I see all this stuff about how great Progeny is. Took a look at the specs...kernel-2.2.18?! XFree86-4.0.3?! Sheesh. Got to go way back and get THAT! Lousy support for my video card, dusty old kernel with no connection to the modern era. OLD kde and gnome. Yep, best way to show off the good stuff in linux is to provide the OLD stuff that lacked a lot of features and capabilities.


    Not wanting to be at the cutting edge of kernels and XFree is one thing, but 2.2.18? Give me a frickin' break. KDE2? Huh? Please tell me that isn't 2.0 or 2.1.

  • Seems like Progeny is now just another Linux Distribution. I wonder how long it will be before they start lay-offs, seeking more funding, etc. Hopefully there support business can save them but in general support has been a losing proposition for Linux companies. To me Progeny is just an expensive form of Debian. I'll take the real distro thanks...

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