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The Internet

Underground Surfaces 92

Posted by michael from the l337 dept.
Julian Assange writes: "I'm very pleased to announce that thanks to Random House, Suelette Dreyfus and myself the complete and unabridged electronic text to our well-known book "Underground: tales of hacking, madness and obsession on the electronic frontier" (approx 500 pp.) has been publicly and freely released... hacked to support Palm Doc!" Good reading.
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Underground Surfaces More

Underground Surfaces

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  • Hm... if there was an HTML version, it'd be a great candidate for Plucker [gnu-designs.com] which, IMHO, blows away PalmDOC for offline reading.

    I'd comment on the book but I haven't read it yet. :) Kudos on getting it e-released, though!

    ---

  • We need more writers like Julian Assange (Score:3)

    by Chuck Flynn ( 265247 ) on Wednesday January 17, 2001 @05:46PM (#499800)
    Having prominent female writers like Julian sends a strong message to aspiring young girls who feel neglected by our school systems which channel them into clerical work or other low-paying fields saturated by women. The old-boys network is a tough one to crack, so thank you Julian for doing your part.

  • Mirrors (Score:5)

    by Booker ( 6173 ) on Wednesday January 17, 2001 @05:49PM (#499801) Homepage
    I guess I was lucky enough to see the download page before the teeming hoards of /.


    As a result, I was able to see that there is a mirror of the plain text here [sourceforge.net] and of the palm doc version here [sourceforge.net]

    ---

  • This Sentiment is One that I Enjoy Seeing (Score:3)

    by Lostman ( 172654 ) on Wednesday January 17, 2001 @05:49PM (#499802)
    From the book: "There are other reasons for releasing `Underground' in this format. The electronic version is being donated to the Visionary Project Gutenburg, a collection of free electronic books run with missionary zeal by Michael Hart."

    I am happy that writers are contributing their works to the Gutenburg Project, and I am wondering if there is something that we could do to help it also. Many a night I have stayed up reading the Gutenburg files, and this author is helping out a great deal--what can we do in order to help out also?

  • interesting... (Score:5)

    by Phexro ( 9814 ) on Wednesday January 17, 2001 @05:51PM (#499803)
    according to the introduction, the text of the book was also donated to project gutenberg [gutenberg.net]. this is extremely cool. i hope it opens the doors for more authors to do the same thing.

    there is a conflict, though. the free version i downloaded has quite a few restrictions, and is basically only for personal use; it even forbids using it as teaching material. and the author retains the copyright.

    this is a change from the standard texts PG distributes. and their boilerplate says: "...this means that no one owns a United States copyright on or for this work..". interesting.

    i still hope that the frequency of this type of donation increases.

    --

  • Julian isn't female, however his girlfriend, Suelette Dreyfuss, is. There are rumours, incidentally, that they're together on the rebound. (JA's marital difficulties are mentioned in the book. Go read for further details.)

  • There is a mirror of the book at:

    http://the.wiretapped.net/security/info/books/ [wiretapped.net]

  • Re:Mirrors (Score:3)

    by Phexro ( 9814 ) on Wednesday January 17, 2001 @05:55PM (#499806)
    mee too. here's [sickfuck.org] a mirror of the bzip2'd text version.
    --
  • If you want to download a copy of the book I've got a backup here [demonstreet.com].

    --
    Spelling by m-w.com [m-w.com].

  • I generally pull the "if you don't have anything nice to say..." spiel, but feminists tick me off. First, check your facts before you say something. (see this [slashdot.org] reply) Second, are you in the school system, because I am and females don't get put down or dissuaded from entering certain fields, rather it is my experience that males are ignored and females and minorities have huge advantages. Perhaps my experience is not typical, but one ought not make blanket statements in cases like this.

  • E-Books (Score:4)

    by kosipov ( 218202 ) on Wednesday January 17, 2001 @06:10PM (#499809)
    In light of this book, it annoys me to see Barnes and Noble and Amazon charging ridiculous amounts of money for Glassreader and MSReader books. If the book is $20 in hardcover and I am supposed to pay around $300 for the device, I better see some serious discounting on the ebook. Marketing and author's royalties aside, the cost of making the hardcover version of book has to be significant, otherwise why would they run paperback versions at $7.
  • I've always wondered that too... the initial cost of the reader is (still) prohibitively expensive for most people. It'd make more sense to lower the cost of the books to say, US$.01 per 1000 words. Increase the volume on the book sales with lower cost so joe reader sees an ebook reader as a good investment.

    ----
  • thanks! you da man


    ________

  • Have you considered the possibility that there are some fields of work and study that just aren't cut out for women? I realize that if you want to toe the liberal line, you have to claim that women are ready and able for anything from construction work to professional football, but if you're brave enough to accept the "unpopular" truth, you realize that there are certain things that men are genetically talented at and there are certain things that women are genetically talented at. There is certainly a large amount of common ground in those two sets, but they are different .. and if you like it, don't take it up with me, take it up with the manufacturer.

    And for the record, I think it's clear that with regards to writing, women can do it as well as men can. But it pisses me off when I read things like this. You can't force equality where it does not exist. Why is it that it is only the women and their apologists that complain about this? When was the last time that you heard a man complain when somebody said that he should not stay at home with the children and cook and clean? Do men whine and say "I can if I want?" No. They accept it. A little less whining and a little bit more productive output would do this world a hell of a lot of good.
  • Well, the original poster had the right idea, just the wrong name. Suelette is attributed as the author, not Julian :)

  • Other e-text projects... (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Yes, yes, we've all seen Project Gutenberg, and it's a remarkable effort. I was very happy when I found Flatland there, and very impressed when I saw how many titles they had painstakingly typed in by hand.


    But they aren't the only projects out there, so why not publicize the other hard-working e-text sites, like etext.org [etext.org], textfiles.com [textfiles.com], project goatenberg [techiescripts.com], and project bartleby [bartleby.com]? I urge you all to help these other great projects get the recognition they so deserve!

  • i got it immediatly, i dont think i even see numbers in the words anymore, i can just read it, odd.
    this sig is funny. [8op.com] laugh.

  • Help... (Score:4)

    by Booker ( 6173 ) on Wednesday January 17, 2001 @07:13PM (#499816) Homepage
    http://promo.net/pg/helpex.html#Help [promo.net]

    http://promo.net/pg/volunteer.html [promo.net]

    ---

  • Actually, the costs of production aren't that different. The difference in the retail price is just the publisher's way of soaking up some people's willingness to pay more for a book. (This is about the only thing I retained from my econ classes in school.)
  • Another mirror here [core.org.au] for the .txt , bz2 and .pdb format. (I can't link to them directly because ci-hosting considers this outside of the unlimited traffic allowance)
    --
  • You realize that there are certain things that men are genetically talented at and there are certain things that women are genetically talented at.

    I was under the impression that human males and females were near-identical from a genetic point of view. While some on Slashdot may not believe it, there aren't two distinct species of human.

    A little less whining and a little bit more productive output would do this world a hell of a lot of good.

    Well, it's just that when women do try to do something 'productive', they usually get paid less, aren't promoted as much, and can often be badly treated compared with a man in exactly the same job. Wouldn't you complain if you were in a situation like this?

    Also, what exactly are these jobs that men are so vastly superior at? If you investigate, you'll probably find that supposedly low-ranking females in male-dominated professions are often doing remarkably well despite adversity and hostility from people with opinions like yours.

    Ford Prefect
  • Under department for this story it says l337 . What's a l337 ? Maybe you dropped a 4, making it l3374, that hot chick from DS9. Guys, guys, guys... Then again if techies could spell then e's wouldn't turn into threes.
  • Read it, you'll like it, trust me :)

  • 500 pp read on 160x160... yikes! (Score:3)

    by Speare ( 84249 ) on Wednesday January 17, 2001 @07:30PM (#499823) Homepage Journal

    I just cannot imagine reading the equivalent of five hundred paper pages on a 160x160 pixel screen. PalmDoc is useful for reference works, but I think it's got a long way to go before I load a novel on it.

    (To understand what I mean, this little slashdot posting would fill a PalmOS screen.)

  • I was under the impression that human males and females were near-identical from a genetic point of view. While some on Slashdot may not believe it, there aren't two distinct species of human.

    They key word here is "near-identical", specifically the "near".

    Yes, men and women are largely the same, and can largely do the same things. However, men have significantly better upper-body strength, on average. If a job requires that, then women are going to have a tough time with it. Running is another difference, although I don't recall exactly how it works. I believe it's something like men are better runners over short distances because the narrower hips work better for this sort of activity, but women do better for long distances because they have better endurance, or something like that. Women have proportionally greater leg strength for their body weight, at least.

    Lest you think the differences are all physical, the brain is different as well. Men tend to have better spatial reasoning skills, women have better verbal skills. See this page [discover.com] for a barely-decent discussion.

    This is not to say that there is any task that women can't do. All of these things are trends, tendencies, and averages. They will not necessarily apply to the individual. If there is some field where there are NO women, and no biological reason for it (e.g. you won't find any women impregnating other women, but that's ok), then you should probably question if women are being excluded. However, if there's a field that's only 25% women, then consider that there might actually be genetic reasons for men being more appropriate for the job, rather than it being just the result of a sexist society. Of course, not every field that's disproportionate like that will be due to genetics, but not every one will be due to sexism either.

  • Re:E-Books (Score:3)

    by NMerriam ( 15122 ) <NMerriam@artboy.org> on Wednesday January 17, 2001 @07:58PM (#499825) Homepage
    Paperbacks sell FAAAAR more copies, so even though the production cost isn't much different, you can charge a lot less for paperback.

    Publishers make a bit more profit per hardcover book sold, but honestly any author knows that the only way to make a living is to get books into paperback...

    ---------------------------------------------
  • The web is so full of shit. When good content like this comes along you start to realise the potential of the internet for empowering people with information, and how far from the ideal we are right now.
  • any chance of someone being able to chop this up into pieces (ie 50k bunches instead of 1 500k pdb)? not all of us have 8 meg palms.

  • ...so here's another

    regular text [hydrogen2.net] and palm db format (insane) [hydrogen2.net]


    --

  • I've read many books(at least 10) on my Visor, and I don't find it very difficult. Once I get into the book, I don't even realize I'm reading it off my palm. In fact, I'd much prefer reading it off my palm than my computer monitor (better on the eyes)

  • MY Critique of Chapter 1 (Score:3)

    by Daemosthenes ( 199490 ) on Wednesday January 17, 2001 @09:12PM (#499830)
    I read through the first chapter of the book online, and so far it's excellent. The writing takes the chaotic, sometimes confusing occurence of a computer worm and turns it into a gripping race against the clock by a desperate group of sys admins and computer managers. I would really recommend that everyone take the time to read at least the first chapter, as it provides insight into the origins of worms and viruses, both what it was like then, as well as how far we have come.


    47.5% Slashdot Pure(52.5% Corrupt)
  • That's what I thought, but I've now read "Journey to the Center of the Earth," "Tom Sawyer," "Huck Finn," "The Importance of Being Earnest," "The Little Prince" and half a dozen other books on my Handspring Visor now. No problems at all; I love it.

    -Waldo

  • a review (Score:3)

    by danny ( 2658 ) on Wednesday January 17, 2001 @09:29PM (#499832) Homepage
    Can be found here [dannyreviews.com].

    Danny.

  • Anyone who reads this book and enjoys it should by a copy to show their appreciation to the author. It was thanks to this book that i became interested in Linux/Unix.

    I found it portrayed hackers as real human beings many of whom have a moral belief behind their actions.

    Nick Denham

  • damn straight, got it right here, chopped up by chapter

    http://hydrogen2.net/ug-13-parts-pdb.zip [hydrogen2.net]

    --

  • would you be aware if they were dissuaded? (Score:5)

    by Technodummy ( 204943 ) on Wednesday January 17, 2001 @09:50PM (#499835)
    this is not intended as a dig, merely a reason why you would NOT hear of it going on, it's hardly what schools brag about.

    I went to an above-average high school. Which was quite proud of it's co-ed policies regarding sewing and metalwork etc.

    However, after getting straight A's for a single compulsory metalwork class, I asked to join the next metalwork class (which had never been done before), only to be told I couldn't "because you're a girl". No joke. I thought perhaps it was just one or two old-fashioned folks who were blocking me, but that wasn't the case.

    The school was deadset against it, but after threatening them with legal action, I was able to join the class, but was given special "girl" projects. Rather than continue welding and learning other regular skills, I was instructed to make a pretty brass spoon, which was the ONLY thing I was expected to complete.

    I didn't make their crappy spoon, as my male teacher was violently opposed to their silliness, and he let me weld to my hearts content, I outproduced every male in the class, in quality and quantity for every project (straight A's, top of the class).

    When robotics was added to our classwork, I helped our teacher learn (they don't bother to train teachers for new subjects anymore, just buy them a couple of books) to use an Apple2E (he'd never used a computer before), which interfaced with lego technic robots. I debugged BASIC everyday, wrote demonstration programs to impress parents of new students.

    And all of that I would have been deprived of... because I was a girl!

    And aside from my metalwork class, no one in the school had any idea of the crap going on behind the scenes, because I was told to keep quiet until it was all sorted out.

    Sexism is alive and well in many places. I'm lucky I have a brilliant teacher to thank for my continued education.

    And for the record, I don't consider myself a feminist. There are some things that certain people do better than others. But I think sex has little to do with it. A tall and strong woman would easily outwork a short a weak man in a physical environment. Just as a tall and strong man would easily outwork a short and weak woman.

    People are individuals, assuming things based on sex, race, appearance or whatever may well prove you to be an idiot.

    Something I get quite sick of, is it being assumed I want to have children. Not all women want children, not all men do either, but people don't seem to expect them to.

  • She (Suelette)'s a friend of my parents, good person and the book is well researched and written. I read it recently (on my list for a year or two...) and just couldn't put it down, it seems so strange that it all actually happened especcially when you live in Melbourne.

    If it's not in the E-text version, and you're in Australia go to:
    www.ata.net.au
    - they're a non-profit group that Suelette worked with before she wrote the book,
    They're mainly intrested in alternative power systems.
    --
    Laptop006 (RHCE: That means I know what I'm talking about! When talking about linux at least...)

  • Like the other posters here, I've read several books on my Visor, including The Hobbit, Robinson Crusoe, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe, etc.

    I have no problem reading books on my Visor, though I don't necessarily prefer it to the paper versions. It's nice, though, for the odd dull spot, long trip or an unexpected wait. I keep the paper versions at home.

  • Long way to go with free books and the law (Score:3)

    by marko123 ( 131635 ) on Wednesday January 17, 2001 @11:12PM (#499838) Homepage
    Unless you got express written permission to mirror this, you are in breach of the copyright. But then again, so is everyone who downloads it without express written permission and intends to retrieve it from their retrieval system. I wish people who slapped copyright messages on their works actually read them. It'd save a lot of hassle.
  • I loved reading this book when I bought it a few years ago.

    Hmm, makes me wonder where I've put it...

    /me searches his house =)

    Cheers,

    leroy.
  • What a nostalgia trip, I always wondered what happened to all the other folk who used to hang out on Altos or Altger to give it the proper name. Personally, I ended up working in the kernel support dept of a major Unix vendor (not too many of those left eh kids?) Anyway I've always fancied writing a 'where are they now' piece on the 'kids of Altos' so if you used to hang out on Altos and want to be involved in a piece of 'hacker' history, mail me at garyl@altavista.net.
  • I bought this book over three and a half years ago at a bookstore in the city (Melbourne) because I had read about the book on the web at the time and figured that I'd take a read. I loved it. Still, I can't imagine reading it electronically. I read the book on the train travelling to and frm work at the time. I don't think I can see myself doing the same with a laptop although I have done so on few occasions to read issues of phrack and such. It's inconvenient. Not everyone has PDA's they can whip out on the train to read. Batteries die as well. Anyway, for anyone who has a bit of spare time on their hands, I'd highly suggest taking a read. It's one of my favorite books of this type :)

  • This is an important book ... (Score:3)

    by matthew_gream ( 113862 ) on Thursday January 18, 2001 @02:02AM (#499842) Homepage
    This is an important book, because it helps to illustrate the psychological and sociological background to people "in the underground" - and help understand that computers, the internet and so on are not inherently evil or a media more suseptible to criminality, but the problems are the ever present problems of children, families, society and the swathe of humanity. Congratulations to Suelette and Julian for putting this important work into the public domain.
  • I've used one extensivvely. When off on a business trip, packing a full size novel takes room in your bags - your PDA is travelling in your pocket anyhow. I used to read the old "The Shadow" [spaceports.com] (or try here [angelfire.com])and "Doc Savage" pulp books, which are going on the net as fast as they can get scanned. Heh, John and Shevvy are gonna kill me if I've slshdotted them....

    Now I use a Psion 5MX PDA it's a little less convenient, due to the increased size, but still handy.

  • Why is it that it is only the women and their apologists that complain about this? When was the last time that you heard a man complain when somebody said that he should not stay at home with the children and cook and clean? Do men whine and say "I can if I want?" No. They accept it. A little less whining and a little bit more productive output would do this world a hell of a lot of good.
    You're wrong. And stop whining.
    --
  • Several people have noted that www.underground-book.com [underground-book.com] has been slashdotted to kingdom-come (doesn't even ping any more) and have asked for mirrors.

    There are a number listed in various slashdot replies, but you can also try sourceforge which has an officialish mirror of the download page.

    Note that there are no mirrors of the web-site proper (just the download pages). But google has cached most of the site. A few of the more useful pages:

  • The sourceforge mirror link didn't appear. Here it is again: http://rubberhose.sourceforge.net/underground/ [sourceforge.net]
  • Well, if we're just pimping our side projects now...

    It actually was serialized by the sun (on Sunspot, their web site). It's called The Narcoleptic Dialectic [amazon.com]. People who liked Douglas Adams books said they liked it just before they attempted to strangle me.

    Today on The Rid: Congressional Friar's Roast of John Ashcroft "A Hoot" [ridiculopathy.com]

  • Can't say I've tried it, but I suspect it would suck.

    What *would* be cool is if I could plug headphones into the Palm and have the text read to me.

  • There are many books in project Guetenberg that are under copyright but the author has agreed
    to allow limited free distribution. One of the first ones I recall doing this was "The Online World" by Ode de Presno ftp://sailor.gutenberg.org/pub/gutenberg/etext93/o nline11.zip [gutenberg.org] but there have been many since then, including one of their Shakespeare collections from World Library (an example is ftp://sailor.gutenberg.org/pub/gutenberg/etext97/1 ws3210.txt [gutenberg.org])
  • It appears there is a plain text version, but maybe I'm then only one who has software (or *gasp* the ability) to make my own HTML version if I wished (which I do not)

    Or was this just an excuse to take a popshot at the authors for not providing every single format that you might desire?

  • Marketing and author's royalties aside, the cost of making the hardcover version of book has to be significant, otherwise why would they run paperback versions at $7.
    As Isaac Asimov once said: hardcovers and paperbacks reach different people, or target as the marketing people likes to say.
  • I've got just one question for ya : Why didn't you follow through with legal action ? Maybe I'm just a stubborn antisocial anti-establishment anti-everything geek, but if I had been in that situation (this is a major stretch) I would be proud to fight them and expose them for all they're worth. That's the only way they'll learn to put their sexist views aside, or else they'll die ignorant. I'm not suggesting you hire a sniper or hitman (sorry, hitperson), but if you want to do your part to clean up all this discriminatory crap, you have to stick it to em and burn them good.
  • Is this book in print anywhere? I've looked in the obvious places (local libarary, BN, Chapter11, Borders, even that 'A' company).
  • While I am fond of giving strong messages to aspiring young girls, they are not, I imagine, of the type this writer had hoped for.
  • I read The Big U this way, in the dark with my wife sleeping next to me, and found it perfectly easy. The main problem was I finished it about 10 minutes after my alarm clock went off, and I was pretty much wasted the next day, but that was a lack-of-sleep issue, not a novels-on-Visor problem.
  • I read a lot. Sometimes I read two or three books concurrently (not at once, just a few chapters of one fiction book, a few chapters of a non-fiction book and then back to the fiction.) So maybe I am not the typical reader but I have read "A Tale of Two Cities" and "Dracula" on my Palm Pilot while standing on line, on the bus, on the subway. It is not the best screen in the world, but I already carry it around for other reasons and I would not buy such a device specifically to read books. It is icing on the cake. I get to read when I haven't planned on it and having a IIIxe with 8 megs of RAM I can carry multiple books without them taking up any space (as I said, I was already carrying the Palm for the address book and other functions).
  • And for the record, I don't consider myself a feminist.

    Now there's a baffling statement... or maybe just an indication of how the power of a word can transcend its actual meaning. If feminism is the radical idea that women are people and should be as free to realize their potential as anyone else - as good a definition as I can think of - then it looks to me that you are one, babe. Regardless of whether you like being addressed that way!

    Of course, eventually the truth of an idea becomes so self-evident that we don't need an "ism" word to describe it anymore. Maybe that's why the word "feminism" seems increasingly outdated. Let's see if a few years of Republican-dominated government doesn't bring it back...

  • Have you considered the possibility that there are some fields of work and study that just aren't cut out for women? I realize that if you want to toe the liberal line, you have to claim that women are ready and able for anything from construction work to professional football, but if you're brave enough to accept the "unpopular" truth, you realize that there are certain things that men are genetically talented at and there are certain things that women are genetically talented at.

    Yes, there are certain things that men and women are inclined to be better at, or that are exclusive to one gender. Men tend to be physically stronger than women; women tend to be more dextrous than men. Only women can bear children, and only men can produce sperm.

    The catch is, society is often bent on enforcing inclinations as fact. Yes, AC, men do tend to make better football players than women. But there's a sizeable and vocal population that tries to insist that women can't or shouldn't play football. Nevermind that the woman in question may be able to hit her receivers 19 times out of 20 with perfect spirals, or can call plays like nobody's business. These same types mock men for doing things like ballet. Clearly, women are better equipped as a whole for the required dexterity and fluidity of motion; why should a man even be trying to do ballet, when he'll never be as good as a woman can be?

    When was the last time that you heard a man complain when somebody said that he should not stay at home with the children and cook and clean? Do men whine and say "I can if I want?" No. They accept it.

    Oh, bullshit. Men whine like nobody's business, just like women. I know plenty of pampered little mama's boys who tremble at the mention of "manual labor" (or "changing a diaper",) and I know plenty of women who silently put up with hell on a daily basis.

    A little less whining and a little bit more productive output would do this world a hell of a lot of good.

    I assure you that there is far more energy wasted in trying to deliniate acceptable men's and women's activities than is wasted in just letting people do what they set their hearts, minds, and bodies to. Women have a large number of purely artificial barriers they must overcome to do so today; being told that they're better designed for some things instead of other, more manly things is one of them.

    Of course, society generally recognizes this fact when the men folk all get sent overseas to fight in wars and somebody [army.mil] has to do all the little things like build battleships and repair tanks.

    Of course, that's just the exception. Women don't really belong in manufacturing and construction jobs, do they?

    information wants to be expensive...nothing is so valuable as the right information at the right time.

  • Yeah... a hard cover is really nothing but a piece of cardboard covered with cloth. I doubt that it adds more than 30 or 40 cents to the cost of a book. But then, whenever you have a monopoly situation - which you effectively do whenever copyrights or patents are involved - the price of a thing has very little to do with its cost. The big differential in price between hard- and soft-covered books was originally (I'm guessing) a way of getting more revenue from libraries and such, where a book is more likely to be read by multiple people. Now we're all trained to perceive significantly greater value in a hard-covered book, so of course we're going to pay 3 times as much for it.
  • I'm glad they put it in a palm doc format now I'll actually read it.
  • I well remember the WANK "Worm against nuclear killers" worm. I was a DEC engineer and had to remove it from the systems in CT that got hit.

    It was harmless, but interesting. Somewhere someone connected a system to DEC's internal network for a few hours (this would have been necessary for the DECnet addressing to work) and ran it. Basically, The worm (written entirely in DCL) tried to gain access to a systems by brut force -- trying to log into every numerical DECnet node address by using transparent DECnet and default accounts created by the various DEC products, and pitched default or obvious passwords at them. If it got in (which did happen because Admins were not good about changing default passwords or closing transparent DECnet), it then captured the list of logged in users and emailed them back to that connected system. If it had gained privileges, it also modified your welcome banner to display the announcement that you've been hit.

    Then this unknown user disconnected that system, and reconnecedt it again the next day (different net address) and try hacking into all the user accounts it collected. Since I already did a cleanup and changed all the passwords, they didn't get in so I don't know what would have happened at that point. Never heard wether the users got caught.

    ---

    Keith Barrett (kgb)
    Red Hat HA Team

  • So, AC, you're saying that you are tired of hearing how men and women should be treated differently because of their different talents (certainly true in activities with physical components), but you state, correctly, that women can write as well as men. Um, that exactly what the original poster was saying. It's nice to see a successful woman in a field traditionally dominated by men, where there is no reason.

    The poster is not calling for women in the infantry where there is a clear disadvantage, but is celebrating the fact that a woman is successful in a field where sex shouldn't matter. I appreciate your sentiment, but I think you are attacking someone who basically agrees with you.

    Rick
  • Why didn't you follow through with legal action ?
    the reason is that when I did threaten them with legal action, I went through the board of education (checking if I actually DID have any rights to attend the class), so the board was aware of what was happening, and they were under supervision from then on. I didn't want compensation or anything, I just wanted to be a student in a class, and they did let me. if they hadn't, I would have followed with legal action.
  • told I couldn't "because you're a girl".
    I helped our teacher learn to use an Apple2E
    Sexism is alive and well in many places.

    Excuse me? An Apple IIe? You're talking about sexist events that happened 15 years ago. You can't use an anecdote that old to claim that this sort of thing is still happening now.

    15 years ago (I was in high school then too) you could make all sorts of anti-gay, anti-jew, anti-whatever insults and get away with it. Today if a student does anything against any "disenfranchised" minority (not including nerds [theonion.com], of course) the whole school is at risk of hate crimes prosecution.

    Certainly sexism still exists. It's alive and well right here on /. in the form of anonymous flamebait. It causes many girls to lose interest in the sciences during middle school. It kills thousands of women in strict Islamic nations. But it doesn't keep American girls out of shop class any more.

    ObUnderground: I'd love to throw this book on my Palm, but all the Doc Readers I've ever seen are shareware and I prefer not to violate shareware any more. Links to freeware, anyone?
  • If feminism is the radical idea that women are people and should be as free to realize their potential as anyone else - as good a definition as I can think of

    ahh, to me this is not what feminism has become. it may have been the original idea, but I think a lot of people (men and women) have gotten too carried away with it. there has been a lot of anti-men and pro-women stuff associated with that word, wrong or right it has a false ring to my ears.

    to me all people are equal, and that's not just in relation to what sex they are. a bigot is a bigot is a bigot... it doesn't matter what they are treating in that manner; sex, race, religion, culture, age, etc.

    to me using the word feminism implies that it's something special, not a standard of behaviour.

    I guess it depends on how you define feminism *grin*

  • >As Isaac Asimov once said: hardcovers and paperbacks reach different people, or target as the marketing people likes to say.

    Yeah - hardcovers go to people who have lots of shelf space ;-)

    I speak as a former hardcover buyer who just plain ran out of shelf space two years ago and who has paperbacks two layers deep on his shelves.

    OTOH, I also speak as someone who thinks e-books are a long way away. We're a *long* way from "6 hours on batteries so you can read a good book in a single sitting", especially if you add "...at 1200 DPI with really good contrast between white and black in all lighting conditions" to the design specs.

    Books - the dead tree things - are still pretty cool.

    (And on the third hand, while I'm at work sipping coffee, I think I'm gonna enjoy "Underground" a chapter or two at a time... Props to the authors, not just for the publication, but also for a great job of text conversion. It looks great in a "book-shaped" 80x80 xterm on my 21" monitor.)

  • While production costs between hardbacks and softbacks aren't much different, you do get more value with a hardback. Typically, hardbacks use a better paper, and of course the binding is better, plus the hardbacking protects the book more.

    If it is a book you are likely to keep a long time (more than 5 years), get it in hardback. While paperbacks last that long and longer, I have seen some go yellow inside that time (though I do have paperbacks from the 50's that look just fine, go figure). Typically, a hardback book will litterally last a lifetime (and longer).

    Actually, if I had my choice, some of the books I have would be on vellum with hard leather or wooden covers (such as my hardback copies of Tolkien). However, since I am not rich and can't get the custom printing and binding done, this will probably be forever a dream...

    Worldcom [worldcom.com] - Generation Duh!
  • You're talking about sexist events that happened 15 years ago
    actually it was 10 years ago, with old equipment (robotics was not a high priority, regular computing classes had new equipment). 10 years ago in Australia you could not get away with those sorts of comments (anti-everything). it wasn't a normal situation, my parents were very shocked by it.

  • Sure, but then there's the issue of whether or not you are allowed to distribute that converted version...

    I usually put that much effort into something if others will benefit from it as well. If it's just for me... well, it's too much work. :)

    ---

  • Actually the first book I read on the Palm (back 3 years ago) was the Hackers Crackdown by Bruce Sterling. From the very first impression it seems to similar... Either put Hackers Crackdown into the search engine of your choice Search Google against Slashdotting [google.com] ;-)
  • um no.
  • Copyright (c) 1997, 2001 Suelette Dreyfus & Julian Assange This HTML and text electronic version was arranged by Julian Assange and is based on the printed paper edition. Permission is granted to make and distribute verbatim copies of this publication provided the copyright notice and this permission notice are preserved on all copies and distribution is without fee.

    If you bothered reading past the first page you would see the above, which I beleive address your concerns. Please note the above quote is from Underground By Suelette Dreyfus with Research by Julian Assange, First Published 1997 by Mandarin. Feel free to find your copy at http://www.underground-book.com/ [underground-book.com] or a mirror near you.

    all persons, living and dead, are purely coincidental. - Kurt Vonnegut

  • I'm quite sorry you get angered when people assume you want to have children. Heaven forbid that you do something that's been somewhat of a tradition for roughly 15,000 years.

    FWIW, it seems to me that guys are expected to want to have kids also. While I'm not saying that you should neccessarily "follow the crowd" just because everyone else does something, it is perfectly understandable for the rest of society to assume that you'll behave *something* like the rest of society.

    (And those that don't respect your decisions can go to Hell. But assumptions are innocent.)

  • For those new to reading on your Palm (which by the way is something that I do regularly, and find very easy) you will need a Doc reader. My favorite is Qvadis Express Reader, available here [qvadis.com]. There's both a Palm reader and a desktop-based previewer, for those still averse to reading on a small screen!
  • Sherman, set the wayback machine to 1997...

    When I first read Chapter 1, I found myself reliving the past. I felt not only deja vu about the events, but of the emotions and the energy of those insane days in 1989. It freaked me out to replay those days nine years previous so clearly and completely. By the end of the chapter it was clear Suelette had captured the essence of what had happened at NASA and that she could tell it to others through the written word.

    Download this book, you WILL NOT be disappointed.
    If you like it, buy a hardcopy to support a really spiffy and clueful author.

    Just in case we don't have enough mirror sites yet, here is another mirror site for the text version [io.com].

    Cheers,
    John "FuzzFace" McMahon
    Pr. Security Engineer
    Cable & Wireless GNO
    (Previous life: Assistant DECnet Protocol Manager, NASA Goddard Space Flight Center)

  • Maybe on a Palm it doesn't. Last night and this morning I read it on my PC (19" 1600x1200 monitor) and felt totally immersed just like when reading a paper book.

    The search feature of the word processor also came in handy for looking back at earlier details.

  • I saw a copy of this book in Freenet, too. Try:

    KSK@text/book/suelette+dreyfus/underground

    Looks like a good read.

    ~Mr. Bad
  • > just aren't cut out for women?

    You need to read a book called _Gender_Shock_

    and I suspect we're being trolled here (but someone modded this up! so..)

    All of those so called 'differences' (strength, spatial perception, etc) with the exception of those specifically linked to reproduction (which not all humans can do anyway) have larger differences *within* a sex than between the sexes. All of them are averages -- my girlfriend is stronger than the vast majority of men -- she's spent most of her career as a tile setter, plumber, gas line runner and cable person (climbing *up* those big poles, mind!). So while more men might be suited to any of these professions than women, she is certainly more suited than most men.

    This point can be argued for every atribute and activity *except* child bearing/egg fertilization.

    > When was the last time that you heard a man
    > complain when somebody said that he should not
    > stay at home with the children and cook and
    > clean?

    Go find a stay-at-home fathers' support group. There's plenty on the net. I've heard much complaint (I generally don't believe that people of either gender are 'whining' when they make such complaints, as in my experience they are both founded and *very* frustrating) from them. As it should be. Men can and should be able to be their children's primary caretaker if they wish.

    *You* on the otherhand, are whining. Not all women want to be your good little wife, working in the kitchen, barefoot and pregant. Not all men want to be their family's breadwinner, working their asses off to support their wife and 2.5 kids. Get over it.

  • I'm quite sorry you get angered when people assume you want to have children.
    not angry, just annoyed. Because then I have to correct them.

    Heaven forbid that you do something that's been somewhat of a tradition for roughly 15,000 years.
    *grin* well we haven't had contraception for that long.

    Since that post I've had several guys tell me they have also been expected to have children.

    I guess what surprises me is given the fact that children are mostly a choice these days (due to much better contraception), that it's an assumption anyone makes.

    It's not like our population is so low we must procreate as fast as possible.

    Also for many, children can hamper your career. You don't see many top lawyers (male or female) who have time for families.

    Who is it in slashdot who says we do things because we can, without thinking whether we should?

  • There are a lot of reviews ("readers" & "critics") linked off www.underground-book.com [underground-book.com] which seems to be back up now...
  • and congratulations to you - while they mispelled your nick, you got a mention.

    I was never particularly happy that your sniffer leaked to Phrack through Anthrax and the Melbourne crowd tho' .. Even though it was a long time after you'd first started using it.

    While the accounts of Anthrax aren't exactly the truth as I heard them at the time, it still makes interesting reading.

    You should write a book of your experiences though, certainly could be more interesting.

    --Q

    (Ah - the memories)
  • There are one or two other avenues that it could have leaked through. I should state for the record that we were always conscious of the power of that tool. In any case there is much best left unsaid - as is generally the case in life. You may be interested to know that I have accepted an invitation to speak at SANS2001 about my experiences of being on the inside. Otherwise, I am not interested in making much personal gain out of those experiences.
  • Actually, if I had my choice, some of the books I have would be on vellum with hard leather or wooden covers (such as my hardback copies of Tolkien). However, since I am not rich and can't get the custom printing and binding done, this will probably be forever a dream...

    You don't need to be rich these days - download the text, format it and print it yourself, the way you want, on gorgeous paper, and hand bind it. Make the book such a beautiful and tactile item that you want to touch it, and handle it, and read it.

    It's a very satisfying thing to do.

    A start might be to choose a smaller book (say a short story), only a few pages perhaps, and produce that, perhaps with illutrations or illuminations (not necessarily your own art) as an exquisite gift for someone. It's a smaller project, so the monetary costs (paper, ink) are less, while the time required is about the same, due to the more complex layout (eg a lot more on each page more than a single block of text).

    In the age of DTP and the web, everyone is a "designer", and the result is truckloads of badly designed garbage. But the point is that the tools are accessible, so if you do actually know what it is that you want, you can get there.

    Another advantage of doing things like binding it yourself is that you can do far more sophisticated things by hand than what mass production allows.

    (When I was studying typography, I hated actually doing it, but loved the results. Now that I rarely do it, it can be fun again, and I still love the results :-)
  • I've converted the book into a HTML version, and from there into Plucker and iSilo (two e-book formats for the Palm). Pick 'em up here! [jmason.org]

  • I just cannot imagine reading the equivalent of five hundred paper pages on a 160x160 pixel screen. PalmDoc is useful for reference works, but I think it's got a long way to go before I load a novel on it.

    (To understand what I mean, this little slashdot posting would fill a PalmOS screen.)

    Well, I have a Visor, and I read on it all the time. Right now, I'm almost through with William Gibson's Bridge Trilogy (which, BTW, I own in hardcopy), and it's great. You get used to it, and don't even think about the fact that you're using a palmtop.

    Plus, I have a 8 MB expansion card. The Bridge Trilogy (3 full length books) takes up ~900K. Which means, in a smaller-than-paperback package, I can carry a good 11000 pages. And I carry a good amount of text. HOW-TOs, wiring guides, letters (well, emails) that I'm writing, etc.

  • some of the following comment is hearsay, so YMMV :)
    Contraception recent? Well, there was this -really- neat herb that was about 90% effective... unfortunately exinct since ~300AD in north africa / southern europe
    Also the Romans had condoms

    I don't know how other regions handled contraception though...
    hrm... I think it could also be said that -not- having kids is something of a tradition too... *g*
  • GOsh, i think i'm not just one of the few guys that got through "underground" in less than 24 hours, but still, i have to spot this:
    -the book is good AND a page-turner in the best possible educated sense, if anybody has still any contemplations about reading it, *anyhow*, a long night's awaiting ya, boys!
    -i was a bit unlucky to be pinned down my PC for the last days due to sore throat shitty flu stuff and thus got the chance to dig right into the book- from 11pm to 5am and finished it in just under 22hrs from downloading. and on /. there was still almost no reasonable comments, sept for some links after the paperback edition got out.
    -it would be interesting to get some first-hand experience bounce back in the wild, till then, this story is as genuine as it can go, System X included.
    -on the issue of fiction-ing for the narrative purpose, the authors still did a pretty cool job, so some details' omission or making up thereof is permitted.
    -i cannot afford to buy the paperback, though i would have, had i had the opportunity and the money (i'm still not in the carding business ;>) especially from a bulgarian perspective. so etext rules!
    -the authors conclude with the image of the NEW hackers, perhaps a lot of thinking should already be under way by them for the sequel?
    -the whole book can't stand next to impartial on its subjects, but this is also why it is so genuine AND true to me. (i won't ask K.Day for comments)
    -mid the first motto sentence (by WILDE) and the last- how thin the line between management and totalitarian control-mania can be? (a la GEORGE * BUSH deja vu, aNybody?)
  • Anthrax was always such a great social engineer. It's good to see his creative side at work in this nice piece of fiction.
  • i've read books on my ti-89 calculator. it only has a 160*80 screen... it's really not too bad.

  • Yup, imagine how stupid I felt when I read past the first page :(

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