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Linux Business

Is SAIR Certification Worthwhile? 93

Posted by Cliff from the yet-another-certification-question dept.
cheezus asks: "My company is sending me and the other two members of our tech department (we're all university students) to the upcoming LinuxWorld Expo in New York, and we are planning on taking the Sair Linux and GNU Certification Level I tests that are being offered for free while we're there. We ordered the study materials (very cool, even came with 9 distros on CD) and have started reading up. Two of us are intermediate Linux users and have successfully set up Linux boxes that run our Web, Mail and DNS, the other is a relative Linux newbie. I'm wondering how hard the tests are going to be, and what the real benefits of having LCP or LCA certification are." Are CTOs and managers in Linux shops actually looking for such certifications right now? And has anyone taken these certification tests before and can comment on how well they match-up to real world expectations of a Linux Administrator?
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Is SAIR Certification Worthwhile? More

Is SAIR Certification Worthwhile?

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  • CmdrTaco read this! (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I hereby propose an improvement to the lameness filter to prevent idiots like the above posting more of that crap.

    Calculate the ratio between the number of characters in the message and the number of linebreak tags. If that's too low, reject the post.

  • Re:bad questions (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    While I agree that both of the questions are somewhat misleading, I don't think you should have any difficulty answering it correctly. I guess we can agree that question one is a big deal, but as far as quetion two is concerned I can't agree with your logic. I'm not a *nix expert but all the knowledgeable people I know always stressed that you should NEVER remotely log in as root. Considering that I would say that answer D is the only correct one. Just my $0.02

  • Re:SAIR is sloppy (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    That is the most corect thing I've heard about SAIR yet. As a former employee, I know all about SAIR's mistakes. The employees are not at all familiar with Linux, and the books were full of huge errors. Also, I worked for a while on the team that developed the test questions; I was amazed when most people were writing questions that were vague and purposefully complex, many times without any mention of the topic in the books. I think in a few years SAIR will improve, but right now, as you said, they're just too sloppy.

  • Love vs. Money (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I was at the Linux show in Raleigh in 1999 and one of the BoF sessions was on certification, with Dan York and the LPI guys and Tobin McGinnis for SAIR.

    Based on their presentations, I really got the impression the the LPI guys were in it to try and do something worthwhile and useful, while SAIR was mostly in it for the money. LPI's exam development was open (and still is, I believe), while SAIR's is not. However, I believe the LPI guys were disappointed in that not too many people bothered to check out and comment on their exam development...

    One other issue that came up was that SAIR signed an "exclusive" contract with one of the premier testing facilites, Sylan Prometric I believe, which left LPI to only be able to test with a smaller testing org., VUE, I think.

    Overall, I got the impression that SAIR was only interested in doing as little work as possible to start making the big "certification" bucks, while LPI was more committed to having good, meaningful exams which would be more representitive of what it takes to actually work as a Linux admin.

    There is a short article about the BoF certification session on lwn.net. It is here:
    http://lwn.net/1999/features/LinuxExpo/Certifica ti on.phtml

    I'm the guy who asked how each cert intended to gain industry respect... (FWIW).
  • After going to Networld+interop I discovered I don't have any experience in a large scale real world situation (except for working at the university computer lab help desk). I am getting (Sair) certification to offset that very fact.
    So if I got the cert your still saying you wouldn't look at me as a possible candidate?

    Jeremy Langley
    Wycliffe Network admin (volunteer)
    langley@hex.net

  • I got the LCP cert this spring, without any studying, just by using my knowledge and experience with Linux. I found it not too hard, but there where several questions which could be interpreted in different ways. Any how, I did it because it only costed me the exam fee, and hardly any time at all, and it certainly is cooler than MCP or MCSE (I mean, my brother is MCSE and he can't even get a peer2peer network to work).
  • I'm glad I did it just from an educational standpoint, and what the heck - a pervious job paid for it. Helped round out my knowledge for the real world (although, obviously, I only learned a tip of the Iceberg more than there is to learn, duh). Getting the rhce did at least help me catch the eye of another employer, although I think the interview meant more to them than being and rhce - employers just don't seem to be as hip to a linux cert as opposed to the ms thing.
    It was pretty cool. The test was divided in three sections, a multiple choice (which for me was the hardest part), a troubleshooting section where they give you four floppies that install broken systems over nfs which you must diagnose the problem and then fix it, and a server installation set up where they describe a server with certain nfs, samba, apache, user/quota, etc. criteria. It was pretty fun, and the four days of crash course leading to the test when I guy from red hat came out were definitely worthwhile.
    There were a bunch of people from sgi there that seemed to struggle from having to forget about how things went on irix. That was interesting - I'd only had limited solaris before I got into linux on my own (about a year and a half prior to the training), so I looked at that as an advantage.
    The course prep materials were pretty cool, but I didn't get them six weeks ahead of time like the study guide is laid out - it was like work said "your getting redhat certification training next week - take this box of stuff and cram this weekend".
    Other people were nervous about taking it, but I think that the thing to do is go out and get drunk and getting in a fight with your girlfriend (or s.o. or whatever) and show up hung over for testing. Take the edge off of the test environment. I'm serious!!!
    One thing though, I did this under redhat 6.1, and 7 is so different that I wonder how long the cert will be 'good'.
  • In the past six years, I've hired over 40 very talented Linux systems engineers--of that 1 had formal certification, yet almost every single one was a gem, ability-wise. I attribute this track record to the fact that I value real world experience far more than I would ever an arbitrary certification.

    I'm a Linux hacker myself, so I have a good idea of what it takes to make someone worth their salt when it comes to systems engineering, which gives me an advantage over your average managment-type, in picking winners. I'd give much more credit to someone who has put a few years in a university computing environment (as an engineer/administrator, not a student) supporting large multiuser systems, distributed filesystems, directory services, etc... than someone who's spent a few $K to put themselves through a class. I also look for someone who's done something interesting with a web server, rather than someone who's just put up a page about their "cool" home systems and their cat.

    YMMV.

  • It depends. If someone has little real world experience, I do not necessarily disregard them off handedly. Instead, I chat with them for a while to get a feel for their level of understanding. I am a BIG believer that there is an "it" that some people get, and some don't. It's the difference between someone who goes and gets a certification, but doesn't understand what they're being taught, and someone who has an instinctual perception of the way things should work.

    When I find someone who gets "it" I try to hire them for something, even if I have to create a position. These people are rare, so if I have to spend time training someone in the details, but end up with a very talented engineer, then I do it without question.

    For example, I ended up chatting with the bar manager at our local watering hole. He was actually into Linux a little bit, and had been hacking (although he didn't know it.) I had a position for a jr. system admin which didn't really need that much in the way of skill set. A year and a half later, he's now one of my more compentent system engineers.

    For those who get it, everything else is just details. So, would I blow you off if you didn't have any real world experience, but may, or may not have a certification, no... I would talk to you for a bit, to get a feeling for your level of understanding of the "way." If you get it, then you're as good as hired, in my book. If you don't, then, maybe.

  • No matter what your take on certification in general is, this is a weak test. I (== casual Linux/Solaris user) just took it and scored above 50%. Amusingly, the section I scored worst on (4 of 10 for "Insallation") was the section with the most propaganda about the GPL and free software and the fewest questions about actual Installation and Configuration.

    *I* wouldn't hire me to do any serious network/admin work, much less security. If the test is intentionally watered down to encourage more people to flash their SAIR Cert on their resumes, I can see that backfiring in short order.

    -clay
  • In this respect, (any) certification is rather like a college degree. After you have a track record, it is (at most) a punched job ticket, and not terribly relevant. But when you're just starting out, either certification or a degree may be a job ticket you have to have before they'll let you in the door.
  • I'd give much more credit to someone who has put a few years in a university computing environment (as an engineer/administrator, not a student) supporting large multiuser systems, distributed filesystems, directory services, etc... than someone who's spent a few $K to put themselves through a class.

    Me too. And you can bet that these people often know a lot about security problems (and scalability and real world hardware capabilites, i.e. how much computing power do I really need to master my serving needs), because they are often confronted with script kiddies on their own system. I was an university admin myself and this led me to learn a lot about these thing - I began reading bugtraq, regulary visited packetstorm (in it's old form) etc..
    Nowadays I wouldn't even hire someone who calls himself "IT-professional" and hasn't heard of bugtraq, I would prefer someone who doesn't think he's professional but seems intelligent and willing to learn - and it wouldn't matter if either of these two had any exams.
  • huh?
  • what's the book? i'm looking for a couple to supplement my "running linux" one from o'reilly

    "Leave the gun, take the canoli."
  • It may be infalmmatory and true, but it is off topic.
  • Try http://www.brainbench.com/ the tests are free, but it cost 8 bucks for a paper cert after Jan something. They have over 200 tests online, lost of Linux and Unix tests, even shell scripting. I took the linux general test and passed about 3 months ago, I was just downsized from a .com so I figured what the hell they are free. Now I have like 16 or so, every thing from 95 to NT admin and all the networking stuff they have. Most of the tests are not too bad, but the networking concepts test is a bitch. Some of the questions they ask are things that I have run across in my time. I dono if it helps to get a job or not, I never had any untill now, I figure it can not hurt. I do want to get the LPI certs too.

    Out
  • SSH does not cleartext the password, whether you're using RSA keys or not. Download Ethereal and check it out for yourself.

  • Well, gee... I can't argue that... Man, and people wonder WHY there are limited intelligent posts on this site... Look dude, instead of Trolling for karma, why don't you work on your social skills.

    From your shockingly mature response to his very valid point, I take it that Chagrin was dead-on when he sized up you and your workplace. I sure wouldn't want to work for you. And please, don't pretend that you know what you're talking about, if you don't.

    I'm not saying you don't know what you're talking about, but I'm certainly leaning in that direction...not knowing how to spell 'kernel' - that's with an 'e' not 'a' - is IMHO an indication that you don't know thing 1 about Linux. I might be wrong, but I think anyone who has compiled a kernel knows how to spell it. If you haven't compiled a kernel, you don't know what your talking about.
  • Misspelling normal words or bad grammar is one thing. Misspelling kernel would be ok if it was a typo, but in this case he really thought it was spelled with an 'a'. Since he didn't know how to spell kernel, that means (to me) that he has never visited http://kernel.org, which means he does not know what he is talking about. I am not criticizing him for misspelling, which seems to be about all you could understand from my post, but saying that not knowing what the spelling of kernel is indicates a lack of knowledge. Also, his reaction to criticism (flaming) indicates he is insecure with his knowledge and/or authority.

    Maybe you now understand what I am talking about. If not, then I'll try to explain it real simple for you: Typos, ok, ignorance, bad. Clear...?

    Thanks.
  • IME, the tests are designed to test your knowledge of the low-level details of system configuration. Study up on the config files and implementation details of NFS, Samba, Apache, and the other common packages. As far as the questions on philosophy go, the way to answer them is to ask, "How would RMS answer this?": SAIR has bought into RMS' utopia hook, line, and sinker.

    It's probably useful, but I agree: take the tests, but don't bother with the training, as it's only of marginal use. Get their study materials beforehand and go through them instead. Don't assume, just because you can ace the sample questions on their web site, that you can pass the test.
    --

  • Ummm, there is a runlevel 5 ... traditionally this is the level of process execution that takes place in XDM execution (multiuser plus X at boot time)

    # runlevel 0 is halt
    # runlevel S is single-user
    # runlevel 1 is multi-user without network
    # runlevel 2 is multi-user with network
    # runlevel 3 is multi-user with network and xdm
    # runlevel 6 is reboot
    l0:0:wait:/sbin/init.d/rc 0
    l1:1:wait:/sbin/init.d/rc 1
    l2:2:wait:/sbin/init.d/rc 2
    l3:3:wait:/sbin/init.d/rc 3
    #l4:4:wait:/sbin/init.d/rc 4
    #l5:5:wait:/sbin/init.d/rc 5
    l6:6:wait:/sbin/init.d/rc 6

    As you can see from my inittab (SuSE 6.4) - no runlevel 5

    Without being picky, I didn't wrote that this would be an RH only thing, I just knew that RH has runlevel 5.

    Michael
  • Hello,

    I'm just trying to find the certificate I should get, that discussion comes right in time..

    I tried some of the above metioned URL, but some wanted to much info from me, other had tests, that were so easy, my first thought was, wow boy, you're becoming a guru real soon...:-)

    But most questions just were easy, but what kind of knowledge provides a test, that shows your ability to learn some manpages? Has it anything to do with your knowledge and general understanding how a UNIX system works? I'm in doubt.

    Checking the LPI tests I saw this question:

    Having booted into run level 3, how would you change to run level 5 without rebooting?

    1.telinit 5
    2.startx
    3.run 5
    4.ALT-F7-5
    5.setinit 5

    I use SuSE and runlevel 5 is not defined in /etc/inittab...

    Looks like a question for someone with skills in RH....

    Michael
  • I'm currently going through the prep books for SAIR certification. They offer all the Level I prep books for $150.00 for anyone going to LWE in New York (see you there!).

    Formal training might work better for sysadmins than for coders. Coding is a lot like chess: Many people can learn the rules, but it takes a different talent (and a good amount of experience) to play a decent game. Administration is more like masonry. With only a basic amount of knowledge, one can be at least useful to a staff of more experienced sysadmins and, in the process, become more experienced gradually.

    In other words, formal training like SAIR can make you useful as a sysadmin (albeit in a limited way). It may not work that way for coders (as I suspect it does not), but the certification is not for coders.

    No offense to all the great hackers out there, but as GNU/Linux takes off in the server space, we're going to need schleps like me-- who can code but it isn't where we spend our lives-- to set up and care for the machines.

    "Ach, Captain, the server canna take any more processors-- we need tae go tae the Alpha platform for more power!"

  • I took the first 4 exams (which qualify you as an lca) some time ago and must say that, compared to the microsoft and also novell tests, the matter you're tested on was pretty deep and covered almost everything I knew. (and then some :) )
    Quetions vary from scenarios about what you can do with a certain piece of software which is gpl'd if you want to integrate it into your own project up to setting up firewalling rules using ipchains and what protocol dhcp runs on.
    Overall I must say I even enjoyed taking these tests: they really felt like a challenge for a change.
    You get 60 minutes per test and I can guarantee you: you'll need them. The 4th test (covering securtiy, privacy&ethics) was a bit of a dirty one though...
    The point of some posters here is valid: most of us can get 80% plus on the practice tests which a re online. However, the exams are an entirely different matter. Know your stuff!
    They have a lot of questions, for example, which include the answer: none of the above and all of the above. Also the infamous microsoft's 'choose all that apply' (without actually saying how many) are present. Overall, I'd say that you have to know what you're talking about, and also _understand_ it...Which is good, no?
    Also, the people of the sair team are pretty good at answering you if you're having problems with something concerning the exams...I for myself wish them luck.
  • While, yes, you will miss most of the confrence if you goto the classes, but I was at San Jose as well, and was told that "If you feel confidant enough to pass it you can just take the test."

    I would assume that's not going to change in this one either, but I could be wrong.
  • Certification is one of my pet hates. My partner is an accountant and she is unable to practice unless she pays her membership fee each year. To me this sounds like a protection racket as there are only two bodies which are recognised and they both charge.

    On a side note there is an investigation being started in the EU as to whether these practices restrict an individuals freedom in the workplace.

    If you live in Britain you should be aware that this is where the BCS would like to end up, pay us a fee or don't work in computing!
  • I just went to the linked site, and tried on of the sample quizes. Most of the questions were badly written, making it very unclear what they were actually asking, and often none of the multiple-choice answers were right.

    Whether or not certification is a good idea can be debated, but IF it is to be a good idea, the tests must be good, and this one is not.
  • I took the SAIR GNU tests back in february, and found most of them to be ok, pretty nice. The last one, though, had an extremely american viewpoint.
    Example: Where I live (Norway), your boss may ask you (the system administrator) to get at copy of the proxy logs, mail logs, mail boxes etc. and you can answer him "You won't get that. It's not legal", as Norwegian law does not permit anyone to read such logs. They can only be used for troubleshooting. As I understood from the SAIR stuff, all countries does not have such laws.
    But as the first step of a certification (the four CLA tests), I find them quite good. I've done some 25 tests of such in total (Master CNA, some Lotus Notes stuff and MCSE), and I find the SAIR/GNU ones quite a lot better than most Microsoft tests, though not as good as those on Novell systems.

    Roy Karlsbakk [mailto]

    Your mouse moved. Windows must be restarted for the change to take effect.

  • Took the exams. Not that bad if ya read their books. IMHO the questions and content were questionable. Too much time on the cheeseball admin tools, not enough related to cli. My 2p anyway.
    • Ok, so I can't spell... I concede that.
    It's not a matter of spelling; it's a matter of whether or not you know what the hell you're talking about. People misspell "their" or "chauffeur", but anyone that misspells "kernel" probably doesn't know the first thing about it.
  • You said it. There needs to be a CPA-styled organization for sysadmins that can provide vendor-neutral standards.
  • I agree number 2 is a lame question. I think 9 was fair though. -Brian
  • Yeah I know, but the question had the text: (This host may be accessed through the local area network if necessary) so I thought that ssh was the only answer that fit, given that stipulation.
  • Guess what is the most useless piece of paper on the planet right after used toilet paper..... Yes that's right! an MCSE certificate. After having gone through this exercise in stupidity I would be very leary of any certification program that could be crammed for and did not require years of real world experience to qualify for. Except for empty headed HR people who interview via a script (you know, the ones who ask about Lye-nux) nobody bases a Sysadmin hiring desision on a certification. Any Cert you get will mostly be used to impress the suits in the front office and the boyz and girlz on the help desk.
  • Speaking of Red Hat, (if you installed and configured the X stuff and the approp. libraries) you would type, init 5 and hit
  • Even more, maybe there will be sys admins who'll think it is wrong to put a server in locked behind fireprotected walls in a air-cooled basement, but that it should be besides their desk.
  • Ummm, there is a runlevel 5 ... traditionally this is the level of process execution that takes place in XDM execution (multiuser plus X at boot time)

    And no, this is definitely NOT a RH only thing - My distro of choice is Slackware :)

    Rob
  • i have an LCP. the tests are not very hard. I only had time to take the Install & Config test, which i passed, and the networking test, which i failed because it had WAY too much samba crap on it. I had never used samba before, but i knew all of the TCP/IP stuff and everything else!! (sorry, i'm still a little upset about that.) i got vouchers for the test i failed and for the other two and i can take them at a whole bunch of locations. the tests are not that hard.

    As for how useful it is, i am a student, so i haven't got a job based on my certification (but I'm gonna apply for a job at VA or at Loki, so let's hope that it helps;-> .) Although the company that i was currently working for payed my way into the conference so that i could take the tests. i have the certificate hanging on my wall and a card in my wallet and they are quite satisfing. At least they give me some credit.

    Tell your newbie friend to really study his ass off because while the tests are pretty easy, you will need to know some pretty screwed up stuff to pass. The one hour long semi-classes that they give before the tests are fun but don't prepare you much.

    Hope that this helps,
    Greg
  • Well, gee... I can't argue that... Man, and people wonder WHY there are limited intelligent posts on this site... Look dude, instead of Trolling for karma, why don't you work on your social skills.
    um.. I done, you can stop reading...

  • Note wrt question #9 that ssh is the only one of the choices that allows the user to authenticate the host! That is to say, it may be possible for a non-root user to put a spoofed login box on your console (or replace it with a dummy terminal!) to capture the root password, but being able to respond with the appropriate host key to ssh implies that you're talking to something with root privs on the box. (Assuming, of course, that both ends have been properly secured in the first place.)

    Serious secure boxes will put up a host authenticator on the console that can be checked with a user dongle, but of course this hasn't really caught on in the general UNIX community.

    Poorly written question.

  • I don't think he was trying to generalize all field techs. However I do think $10/hr sounds a bit low. One of my friends works for a company that uses outsourced techs for "special" happenings to their Citrix servers (the day to day is done by their own techs) but the field techs they use charge $180/hr...so obviously they know what they're doing.
  • I would hardly call M$ certs "esteemed". You can't hardly turn over rock without finding an MCSE!
  • I swear that dude looks exaclty like Pavarotti.
    --
  • Yes but what about RHCE? I've been studing that lately and (OHH MY GOD) actually found information that was usefull at my job (I'm building an intranet/extranet kind of a thing with practically no budget).
  • I taught level one SAIR LCA training at a small Linux company with roots that reach into the local ISP's of my town. I won't go into detail where or when. The first thing I noticed was the lack of interest in really training to learn rather than training to get bodies in the seat. The second thing I noticed was most of the students weren't passing the tests. I took several tests and passed each of them. It did take a few times on the areas in which I have little knowledge however. The typical good student didn't pass the test the first time. There are a few reasons. First the students expected too much too fast. They wanted to pass the tests right out of the class. The third thing I noticed while working there was the lack of real relationships. There were fostered realationships but no real ones. Many of the other teachers as well as myself began to feel frustrated because the bulk of the students didn't have computer experience beyond the home use. The fourth reason for my lack of interest in Linux certification. In a nutshell (pun inteneded), Linux needs valid certification paths and institutions to offer the courses developed toward learning Linux (not SAIR certification). I would be all for properlly training students in Linux and giving prep courses for the certifications. However, until the real world accepts Linux as a viable replacement to more expensive solutions I don't think certifications are going to hold a cup full of water. I wish it were otherwise. (BTW - I now work in a Sun Solaris Unix shop - talk about irony). Rivendahl
  • I had meant the end salary of the techs. I worked a $59.00/hr place that didn't want to pay me jack, and in the field they charged $129.00/hr. Remember, the techs don't get the whole salary.

    "Titanic was 3hr and 17min long. They could have lost 3hr and 17min from that."
  • well,i love u

    can u do something better? or just fucking around to draw some attention ?

    this is not fun when seeing u at court

  • You describe a "sea of Kernal [sic] hackers" and can't even spell 'kernel' correctly!

    Actually, kernal was an alternative spelling used by Commodore from way back... Never seen it used anywhere else though

    - cicadia

  • They would if he gave them some of the lovin' after the whore.

    Ashes of Empires and bodies of kings,
  • I'm sure CmdrTaco will.

    Ashes of Empires and bodies of kings,
  • he was a self taught Win95 monkey monkies make good eatin' !

    Ashes of Empires and bodies of kings,
  • I've been an anti-M$ certification [lesbianloveshack.com] guy for a while; it's interesting to see the life and times of the *nix community in contrast.

    I really think that examples like these (the sample questions posted earlier), whether you think they're good or bad, still continue to baffle me in the grand scheme of certifications. While I agree that everything on earth is subject to interpretation, what should a certification really prove?

    It should allow the student to demonstrate an aptitude for a particular discipline. It should not be a grammatical proving ground, nor should it teach individuals to solve problems with limited information. Real problem solvers do not attempt to arrive at conclusions using "only the information given". They seek out resources, do their homework, and employ the expertise of others in the absense of immediate detail. This is a process taught over and over throughout higher learning, and it confuses me why these gloried examinations continue on such a divergent path.

    And what ever happened to practical (hands-on)examinations? This is a real application of knowledge. If these exams, and their representative certifications, truly serve to mean something in the future, maybe the proving grounds need to get a little more realistic.

  • "Parse error: parse error, expecting `','' or `';'' in matrix.php on line 219"

    http://www.linuxcertification.com/kmatrix/ [linuxcertification.com]
    --
    If the good lord had meant me to live in Los Angeles

  • A common response to "How does Sun make money of of Java if they give it away free?" is "The certification programs."

    I doubt that Sun could survive only by offering Java certificates. Sun makes money by selling expensive hardware.

  • Hi. My cousin is an MCSE in London, and when he took the exam for his certification, he managed to get all the answers in advance off the World Wide Web! I don't know if this problem is exclusive to MCSE's, but if it isn't, doesn't this problem devalue certification for the honest? I'd really like to know more about this, because I am considering getting a Java Certification from Sun at some stage myself. Thank You!
  • Accounting departments were made for shooting them up!
  • Certifications dont mean a thing to employers who want to produce results. If you can show an Employer that you know what your doing and Prove your not going to shut down his business due to stupidity, you will be hired over anyone with a Piece of Paper to cover the "Bug Splat" on the wall. Results have always been heard over paper. So get a life, Learn Linux and produce results.
  • Yes Certifications are worth it. And no they are not. I have several technical certifications - and they don't make me a better engineer/admin/whatever. But what they can do for you is act like a pair of red-tape scissors. Managers with very little practical experience in the field tend to notice certifications the same way a BA is looked at in the Business world. CCNA, MCSE, CNE, etc... all act as little flags(perhaps to higher management or HR). These flags can allow you to move to the next step - technical interviewing. As far as Linux Certifications go, I do not think that they are noticed that heavily outside of the community. I am an RHCE, and I work for a very large Scandinavian company. They looked at my Resume and wanted to know what the hell a RHCE is! I would be very wary of investing the effort in a linux certification unless your only goal is to work strictly with Linux. Because my Sun Certification was about 50x easier to pass, but everybody knows what that is. /Dave

  • The one you're commenting talks about LPI and you're commenting on SAIR.

    Please write what certification program you're talking about when you'er commenting.

    LPI doesn't have such an agreement.

    Thanks in advance

  • Interview more important than certs (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Firstly, I'll say that I've been the CTO of 2 public dot.coms (and they're both still around...though barely solvent) so I think I can make a general comment...

    Firstly, based on my experience with the MCSE bonanza, it's apparent that most testing organisations are mostly interested in stuffing their classes with warm bodies and extracting their training fee, NOT with producing useful "graduates." It's a sad, but unfortunately true phenomenon.

    Secondly, in order to fulfill the above criteria, the testing methods and depth of testing are kept rather mediocre in order to produce the most "graduates."

    Am I saying all testing centers do this? No. Is it a common practice? You betcha.

    After interviewing literally hundreds of SA's, coders, and QA personnel, I can say that a cert might open the door, but hiring based on those certs alone is foolhardy. I've routinely rejected about 50% of the applicants for tech positions who couldn't answer even basic questions about their area of expertise. That's why it is so vitally important to avoid the trap of "letting HR handle these things" and have a competent tech person conduct the interviews and screen applicants.

    To be honest, some of my best people were folks who had little formal computer training. Many just picked up books and dove in. Some of them later threw virtual rocks at me when I forced them to take MCSE tests to stay in M$'s good favour, but I considered it an unfortunate cost of doing business. Even though were were an M$ "solutions provider" I specified either Linux or solaris solutions 90% of the time. 8-)

    Hope this was helpful.

    Regards,

    Just another anonymous coward who hopes his options will be worth something someday. ;-)

  • I hesitate to recommend a book which I haven't actually read. There have been plenty of books which looked good, but when push came to shove, the detailed info was simply incorrect.

    This is one of those Exam Prep ones. Big tacky and red. "General Linux 1", Dee-Ann LeBlanc from Coriolis. I haven't given it a read cover-to-cover so I can only recommend pulling it off a bookshelf and skimming it for now... but it looks quite solid. ISBN 1-57610-567-9.

  • I'd have to second what AC and WhyPanic have said.

    In fairness, I think Tobin et al. are aware of the problems; the main issue is that it is tough to find people with Linux expertise in Oxford, Mississippi, and once you find them it's hard to keep them on at $10/hr doing tech reviews. Another problem: writing readable technical books is hard. Probably 30 people, including me, read Running Linux (3rd ed) before it was published, and I'm sure some stuff still slipped through the cracks. Sair maybe had 3 people qualified to do that when I was there, hence the issues identified here...

  • you've done just about everything on a linux box at least once before... and committed it to memory.

    That's the thing...I've done a whole lot, but what is the point of committing all the options of 'ls' to memory (for example)? I took a 'quiz' they offered, and it didn't impress me. Someone who really knows what they're doing, IMHO, doesn't memorize crap that they ask, they use the wonderful man pages, info pages, and documentation to figure it out, and for reference. A quick --help or man will refresh your memory, and is much better than trying to memorize everything.

    That said, I also noticed that one of the questions on the 'quiz' was about Version 6 UNIX. This is a Linux and GNU test; what the fuck does Version 6 UNIX have to do with Linux or GNU?!? That was another thing that didn't impress me about these tests.

    And finally, I read their 'Agreement [linuxcertification.com]'. Not exactly in the spirit of Free Software. You can't say anything bad about them, ever, or you lose your 'certification'. They can basically make you do anything, or else you lose your cert. Whatever.
  • One benefit in having LCP and LCA certification is that you look cool. And in this day in age, looking cool is important.

    I'm totally serious.
  • I don't think Linux people really need certification in a corporate setting. Linux is still a "finge" OS, so any company using it is likely to just hire someone who claims to know what he's doing. I'm not saying that certification is bad, per se, (it would look good on a resume, and would probably get you better pay) but it only seems to be necessary for Windows admins, where everybody and his duck knows how to click a button and use an applet. I think the best thing to do would be to try to find a job with a company and negotiate into your hiring contract a clause where they pay for your training/testing. That way, you can get a job, and, if you don't like it, you can get another one by flaunting your certification. And it won't cost you a dime.

  • Like the title says, I used to be against cert programs. My attitude was that they are just a way of the companies involved making money. A common response to "How does Sun make money of of Java if they give it away free?" is "The certification programs."

    However, I've recently been studying for my weblogic certification, which has Sun Java Programmer as a prereq, and I've found the experience to be quite satisfying. Like most tests, it actually has me learning in depth stuff that I normally wouldn't look into while on a project. Even things I sort of knew, I know really well now, because I have to know them for the test (I will be taking it next Friday).

    Of course, I don't think I would do it if I had to pay for the test. But when an employer is paying, it can be really worth it.

    So, from a less practical standpoint, so you feel that you have to learn stuff you don't know for this test? Do you have to cement stuff you kind of knew. If so, then I'd say it's worth it.

  • I didn't mean to suggest that I would hire a person on the basis of their answer to this question.

    I see the hiring process as follows: the candidate and the company try to find a good match (a place that fits with the candidate's current skills, and also provides an opportunity for her to advance into whatever role she wishes.) Most candidates will NOT be hired, and thus it is important not to humiliate, grill-and-dump, or otherwise trash the interviewees. These people may be your future clients, vendors, or even co-workers. Specifically, no one should ever feel that they were "tripped up" by a single question or unknown fact.

    Thus, I start easy: if the candidate aces the machine examination question, we move onto topics like compute-farm management, spreadsheet design, and global networked databases. If the candidate starts thrashing, but says her strengths lie more in Perl, we'll talk about algorithmic complexity, and data structures. The next interviewer will be a Perl expert, and will judge Perl skills.

    I want candidates to show their best, so I try to makes questions easy, but each question provides a chance for an expert to strut their stuff. If you come in for a sysadmin job, and find, after a few hours, that you are filling a whiteboard with code for L2-cache optimal matrix multiplication, you are probably going to get offered a job, and one that's quite a bit better than the one the headhunter said you were interviewing for!

  • I went to their site and took the practice quiz... any decent Linux user should be able to get the certification.

    About 15% of the questions were poorly worded (nasty double negatives, insufficent information) or just plain wrong. About 50% were trivial, leaving 35% that could be quickly answered if you had a command prompt or a browser running.

    If I were interviewing a candidate, I'd prefer to just telnet to a machine, sit him down at my keyboard, and ask:

    • What type of machine is this, and what OS is it running?
    • How much local disk space does it have?
    • What's its primary role?
    I'll trust her answers more than any certification.
  • I think you've pointed out the number one reason why many experienced linux people tend to scoff at the need for certification:
    • We are always looking for "Certified" Linux guys... In a sea of Kernal hackers, some sort of "Cert" will definitely put your resume at the top of the pile.
    As a unix professional myself, the biggest fear I have when taking a new job is whether or not I'm jumping into a job with a clueless administration that likes to hop from buzzword to buzzword. You describe a "sea of Kernal [sic] hackers" and can't even spell 'kernel' correctly!

    Right now I can't help to notice that little man on my shoulder waving a red flag and screaming to stay out of the pit of hell that your place of employment probably is. This probably sounds like a troll, but I might suggest you consider looking more deeply at experience rather than certifications.

  • I took the practice tests and got an overall average of 80% but there were a few questions that I didn't agree with. Most are on the security and ethics test.

    Is it ever ethical for a Network Administrator to read other users' E-mail on a server that he is administrating without approval.
    Explanation: The Electronic Communications Privacy Act specifically grants this right to authorized personnel. Courts have generally ruled that there is no reasonable expectation to privacy and, further, states that employers have the right to read e-mail to protect their interests.     While I see that it is legal, I still don't consider it "ethical"

    2 :Of the following examples, which would be the most representative of physical security?
    1. Computer Locks
    2. BIOS Security
    3. Boot Loader Security (example - LILO)
    4. xlock and vlock
    Explanation : Physical security of a machine is the protection of unauthorized persons from logging into the physical terminal. All four examples help in preventing unauthorized persons from logging into the machine.
    I think the first one is "most" representative answer as the others are all implemented in software.

    9 :Which of the following is the most secure method for a System Administrator to login as root into a host. (This host may be accessed through the local area network if necessary)
    A.rlogin
    B.ssh
    C.telnet
    D.Login as root at the physical terminal
    E.All of the above are equally suitable options
    Explanation : Answer D is correct. Using rlogin, ssh, and telnet place the root password on the network, subjecting it to potential snooping. Further rlogin relies on the "trust" of another host and can be easily fooled. Telnet and Secure shell are probably the next best choices because they are capable of using encryption to protect the data but is still unsafe because it is always feasible that someone is capable of decrypting the message. Physically logging onto the terminal prevents network snooping of the root password.    I chose SSH. I realize that logging on to the physical console is the most secure but why does the question say you can log in over the network if necessary? And unless I'm graveley mistaken ssh does not put the root password in plaintext on the network. I'm sure it doesn't when using public key authentication...

    Sorry, those just caught me as unfair questions...

  • There seem to be a lot of new certifications out there now. Personally I think most of these to be ploys to make some money off the certification craze. People hear the word certification and they associate it with one thing... money. Eventually these "deadly certifications" will degrade the value of the more esteemed cert's, such as the Cisco line and the M$ line. Bad news for the people who have these already.

    ----------
    do { Work(); PayTaxes(); Eat(); Sleep(); } while (alive)
  • anyone that misspells "kernel" probably doesn't know the first thing about it.

    i'v always been amazed at the number of guru-status *nix types who say and type "Xwindows"... i've always given these people the benefit of the doubt and assumed that they just happened to be mistaken on a point of spelling... boy am i glad to know that i can now just dismiss these people of of hand as incompetent poseurs

  • you can pay "big" bucks for a cert that the vast majority of employers won't grok, or, you can go get the online freebie at brainbench [brainbench.com]. i took the unix admin one and there were actually points where it was tough!
  • I tried their "Installation and System Administration" test exam and was rather disappointed. One of the 10 questions was something to the effect of "Which of the following can you not do with a piece of GPL'd code?" with answers something like:
    • combine it with copyrighted source code under a different license
    • charge a cost for the distribution media
    • release only a binary, while providing source only if the user requests it

    The answer they were looking for was the first one (due to the GPL's viral nature). However, as most people who follow Slashdot regularly know, there have been a number of exceptions, to allow GPL'd code to be combined with other source that's of a similar open sourced nature but not under the GPL itself.

  • I can give the inside scoop on operations at SAIR. Their material is prepared by college students; many of them never using a Linux box before their initial employment. Their deadlines are rushed and the quality of output is poor. If I had to speculate, 65% - 75% of the employees could NOT pass the Level I test. A Linux certification should be based on the same principles as the system itself: open development. SAIR is plagued by poor management, poor quality material, and a lack of the true vision of Linux. If I were an IT manager, knowing what I know about the Sair, Inc. company, the certification would be a piece of paper. LPI should be recognized as the "standard" Linux certification.

  • My dad was the first Certified Quality Manager in the state of Mississippi, as cert'd by the American Society for Quality. Certified Quality Engineers had already proven the standard [my dad had his CQE and was teaching CQE review courses], and CQM got some acceptance on that.

    I guess the benefit will be the initial graduates and any subsequent certifications that follow. You'd want to make sure that one level of cert is respected before adding more, but the additions have a value added by those that they're built on.


    --
  • ... are that in theory, the cert will test the individual on basic requirements to be a sysadmin. This doesn't mean that the individual will be a good Sysadmin, I've known several MCSEs that have $10.00/hr US jobs as field techs because they were incompetent as an Admin, but at least indicates that they took the time to go through the test.

    Hopefully, the test will cover important stuff like TCP/UDP/ICMP services, security, permissions, file locations, libraries, user management, cron, etc... Otherwise, the test may be worthless...

    "Titanic was 3hr and 17min long. They could have lost 3hr and 17min from that."
  • I like certs. They have a cool minty core and only one calorie. I think the most sought-after cert would be the spearmint, but I could be wrong.
  • is esentially to give a prospective employer your knowledge base at a glance. The certification does not do anything else really. I am an A+ certified tech but my experience with *nix (FreeBSD) at home has taught me a lot more than any exam or course ever could. My experience with my own computer systems prepared me for my A+ exam better than any book could have as well. I also think that some certification systems are simply a joke, for example, I am also Lexmark certified. I can do warranty work on Lexmark printers. The exam was 20 MC questions, on my own puter, with the service manual open in front of me!! Kleed
  • As you could see on the news, RMS got arrested [yahoo.com] instead of me.

  • Re:The advantages of a certification... (Score:3)

    by Dr. Evil ( 3501 ) on Saturday December 30, 2000 @11:20AM (#1423581)

    I picked up one of the LPI books yesterday. It appears to be one of the most thorough books covering all the basic stuff you need to know to work with a Linux box. It does cover everything you said, and in a fair bit of depth. Things I've done and I can barely recall how to do, like configuring ppp to answer dial up lines. It also goes into depth on the protocols to do things like routing. User management goes into password strength, shadowing etc. The book delves into IP chains, SocksV5, etc. And this is for the the 101 exam. The last of 13 chapters is about configuring X.

    Other topics include package managemnet, recompiling the kernel, shell scripting, regular expressions, bind, apache, wuftpd, sendmail, printing and managment of network print queues, disabling unused network services, quotas, logfiles, tracking security updates online, hardware configuration and modules.

    Honestly the book is a course outline for all the stuff I've been meaning to solidify my knowledge on. I won't really know how thorough it is until I give it a read, but skimming over it, it looks impressive.

    I've been a linux sysadmin before, and I'm ashamed to admit that I didn't know half this stuff, but that was some time ago. I have known other admins who wouldn't know a fraction of this stuff either. Most can figure it out on the job, and yes, that is a valuable skill, but if the certification holds up, it is a piece of paper saying that you've done just about everything on a linux box at least once before... and committed it to memory.

  • Knuckleheads and SAIR... (Score:3)

    by Moe Yerca ( 14391 ) on Saturday December 30, 2000 @11:14AM (#1423582) Journal
    I have a buddy who knew absolutely nothing about Linux or any other Unix flavor, he was a self taught Win95 monkey. (no college, no training at all, plays lots of games tho :) ) Linuxgruven [linuxgruven.com] came in to town and offered him a network engineer job if he got a certification, so he took a month of nightly Linuxgruven training classes and started on the SAIR tests. I've been helping him study (he needs a Linux box to study on, and my skill with google exceeds his :) ) and the tests don't look too bad. By far the toughest is the Networking test, which he's failed 3 times. His score keeps improving, and I'm certain the next time he takes it he'll pass.

    The moral of the story is that Linuxgruven takes a bunch of knuckleheads (my buddy was at the top of his training class) and gives them a month long introduction to Linux. Some of these guys truly are knuckleheads and have NO chance of passing, but my buddy with a bit of hard work is going to pass all the SAIR tests just two months after he first logged in to a Linux box.

    You have to know some details, and they have questions about netstat, arp, route, ifconfig, ipchains, kernel modules, samba, apache, anon ftp, sendmail, etc... but if you've been working with Linux for 3 years and you review the material covered by the tests, you shouldn't have a problem.

    moe

  • Not really... you'll miss most of the conference. (Score:3)

    by netadmin ( 66549 ) on Saturday December 30, 2000 @10:54AM (#1423583) Homepage
    Of course everybody has a different experience of things... but... I tried it out at the San Jose LinuxWorld in August and to be quite honest it's not worth missing all the keynotes and cool talks. The training is not *before* and not *after* the conference, it's during! I was really pissed off about afterwards and when I go next August to SF I'll just stick to the conference.

    It *is* a great way get your boss to send you to a cool conference, but I'd actually go for the standard paid-for course and come up with a different reason for your company to send you (cos there are plenty)...

    I've been geeking with Linux since about mid '97 ish and am totally self taught. It was quite hard to get into the SAIR style and every training comapany definitely has their very own style of questions. Occasionally they trick you into thinking you don't know the answer by phrasing it in a completely nonsensical way, when if they'd asked you straight you'd've got it no problem.

    In short... my advice is go to LinuxWorld and enjoy it but do the training seperately.

    My two rubels.

  • boycott all certifications (Score:3)

    by dkh ( 125857 ) on Saturday December 30, 2000 @12:28PM (#1423584)
    Really, these things are marketing hype. How many people holding a Microsoft Cert have you seen that you wouldn't let wash your car much less take care of your network? I can't speak to the specific certification in question but I think we would all be a lot better off if the HR types aren't allowed to just look for convienient labels and think they are indicative of any kind of skill or real knowledge.

    IF WE REALLY WANT to become "professionals" in the sense of lawyers and doctors, (not neccessarily a good idea imo) then there needs to be some kind of centralized authority with fixed types of knowlege tests. That kind of certification might mean something. But all of these certifications promelgated by manufactures are simply another source of income and advertising.

  • Well, at my company... (Score:3)

    by jonfromspace ( 179394 ) <jonwilkins@NOSpaM.gmail.com> on Saturday December 30, 2000 @10:39AM (#1423585)
    We are always looking for "Certified" Linux guys... In a sea of Kernal hackers, some sort of "Cert" will definitely put your resume at the top of the pile. A lot of hops (here in Calgary) are reluctant to deploy Linux, simply because they feel that it is easier to find M$ Network Disintegrator. If there were more certified Linux Admins, Deployments would go up, and that would make Cmdr. Taco a very happy guy.

    um.. I done, you can stop reading...

  • Re:A very interesting comment (Score:3)

    by jonfromspace ( 179394 ) <jonwilkins@NOSpaM.gmail.com> on Saturday December 30, 2000 @11:50AM (#1423586)
    Ok, so I can't spell... I concede that.

    However, an applicant with some sort of cert is always going to get my attention. People can, and will, exaggerate their experience level, and the level of responsibility they had at previous places of employment. Certification does not solve this completely, but it is an excellent reference point.

    As for your comments about the environment at our office? I am not going to get into a flame war with you, but perhaps you should save those comments for Kuro5hin. We run a professional and challenging environment for all of our employees, and their loyalty proves that.

    um.. I done, you can stop reading...

  • MSCE certified! (Score:3)

    by Third Normal Form ( 211331 ) on Saturday December 30, 2000 @04:00PM (#1423587)
    I learned a lot of stuff as part of my MCSE training that allows me do increase ROI for my company.

    • The subnet mast is 255.255.255.0.
    • Raid 5 is pretty cool.
    • Good training centers give you free pop in exchange for $2000/week * 6 weeks or so.
    • NETBEUI is a viable alternative to TCI/IP.

  • certs in general (Score:3)

    by +Addict-09+ ( 239664 ) on Saturday December 30, 2000 @10:40AM (#1423588)
    Search dice, monster, net-temps, etc for the different cert acronyms and it will quickly become apparent which are valuable and which are not.... IMO Solaris is the sought after *NIX cert... may vary by location..

  • My comments.... (Score:4)

    by NetJunkie ( 56134 ) <jason.nashNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Saturday December 30, 2000 @11:48AM (#1423589)
    First off, my wife and I are currently working on a study guide for the LPI level 1 exams, which should be out soon. I wouldn't say I'm biased by it, though.

    We took the Sair tests and "training" at Linux World in San Jose. Skip the "training". It's a waste. You miss a lot of the conference, and you get no real information. The "instructors" were not that good. We were really disappointed. If you want to pass the Sair exams just go buy the Sair books. The answers are spelled out word for word in them. The questions on the exams were not that good. They really didn't test your knowledge.

    I much prefer the LPI exams, which is why we're doing an LPI book. The questions are MUCH better, and do require knowledge of how to work with Linux. The LPI exams don't get as much press, though...which is a shame. They have backing by major players in the Linux world. The level 1 exams are out of beta now, so check them out at http://www.lpi.org.

    But, since the exams are free at Linux World, go for it. Just don't waste time in the "classes". Whoever came up with the line saying "$5500 worth of training!" is on crack.

    One final note...for the security exam go learn the different informatino laws and how they apply to work. They ask a lot about that and proper chain of command....or what they consider proper. Go take the practice exams they have.

  • Has to be judged in the field, in practice (Score:4)

    by Ars-Fartsica ( 166957 ) on Saturday December 30, 2000 @10:44AM (#1423590)
    I doubt many managers are aware of the SAIR program, but will probably look upon any linux credit on the resume as favorable.

    Of course, once hired, if that employee proves to be uttlerly clueless, that will reflect back on the SAIR coursework and likely not be as meaningful for the next candidate. The abilities of the early graduates will ultimately determine the value of the program.

  • Exams (Score:4)

    by S.I.O. ( 180787 ) on Saturday December 30, 2000 @10:53AM (#1423591)
    I passed the first two exams (Installation & System Administration) last week, just before Christmas (here in Europe). My score was really close to the required minimum (74% = 37/50 questions) though. I suggest you to solve the test exams here: http://www.linuxcertification.com/resources/quizze s/ and read the exam objectives here carefully: http://www.linuxcertification.com/exams

  • I took the test (Score:4)

    by TGMilenko ( 249932 ) on Saturday December 30, 2000 @11:02AM (#1423592)
    I am fairly Linux newbieish, but I have set up various distros, including Debian with various configs, and I also studied the book and knew it cold. However I failed the test. I am an MCSE plus a few othter certs, been in the IT field for 15 years and never failed a test before this one. They had a lot of questions that you would never know from reading the books, but would only know from really playing with the OS for quite some time. I figure I just got used to the M$ tests where you can generally read the book one day and take the test the next without booting a PC. I guess it better this way as it will keep people from becoming "paper LCP/LCA's".

  • Track record trumps certifications (Score:5)

    by tmoertel ( 38456 ) on Saturday December 30, 2000 @10:43AM (#1423593) Homepage Journal

    At the companies I've worked or consulted for, certification is something the companies will consider if you don't have a well-established track record. The applicability of certs is generally limited to entry- and mid-level positions. You will almost never get a senior position on the strength of a few certs.

    If you don't have the experience, and a good work history to prove it, a certfication may get you in the door. But, for higher-level positions, like the senior designer for a large system's middleware or the engineer in charge of scalability/performance tuning on a large-scale distributed sytem (which a lot of e-commerce back ends are), certifications aren't given much credibility.

    In general, a known track record (good or bad) trumps certifications: If you're a known lamer, a cert won't save you. And if you're a known project-saver, nobody is even going to ask for your certs (or a resume in many cases) -- they want you on the team.

    So, if you have a good track record, make sure that you can demonstrate it to potential employers. Otherwise, a certification may be your best bet.

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