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Patents

More Silliness Over Patents: NetZero Sues Juno 135

Posted by Hemos from the what-a-world dept.
def con Cyber writes: "Is that idea so obvious it shouldn't be patentable? This is an interesting story where NetZero is suing Juno over its ability to "pop up external advertising windows". " Check out the update (Thanks to Dan Kaminksy) regarding the suit that Juno had filed against NetZero to start this whole thing off.
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More Silliness Over Patents: NetZero sues Juno More

More Silliness Over Patents: NetZero sues Juno

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  • Re:Yep...It's the Republicians fault... (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Err, if it happened during the Reagan or Bush years and Congress was the one passing the law then it was the Democrats who wrote the law since they controlled Congress in those years.

    Both parties are clueless about patents...why do assholes keep on trying to say one party is better than the other when they are both crap when it comes to IP issues?

    The election is OVER. Neither guy was wanted - the results were as if everyone just flipped a coin and then voted!!!!

    - Scalawag

  • Campaign idea (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Wouldn't it be good to set up a campaign-with-web-site, where people try to register as many silly patents as possible, then list the ones that are granted?
  • Sounds like this would be a good thing to hack into Mozilla. You could block Javascript from running on specific sites (or even just block the javascript window.open() command) just like you can block images and cookies from specific sites now. Or turn it around and have an option that lets you block Javascript by default and then enable it on a per-site basis. There's a good chance that this feature will eventually make its way into Mozilla as enough people seem to want it.

    Pop up ads are the reason I switched from Intellicast for getting my weather. I ended up switching to Yahoo! Weather because their ads aren't so instrusive and it has the trademark KISS Yahoo! UI, which is always a plus. I almost switched to weather.com, but it popped up a few ads (oddly enough, it only did this once or twice out of about a dozen visits), and I may still switch at some point in the future if the pop-ups from their site can be selectively blocked.
  • Not by at least 50 years. A parallel existed using the telephone.

    Thanks

    Bruce

  • Ha ha. "We were stupid first!"

    --
    You don't become a failure until you are content with being one.

  • You can get a patent for applying a technology "first" in a given field. I haven't read NetZero's patent, but I would assume that they filed for the ability of pop-up ad windows in an ISP.

    Personally, I think that pop-up ad windows should be banned, but that was an earlier story.

  • That's like saying that rollerblades can't be patented because of roller skates. Same with other very similar devices that are patented.

    It's my understanding that you can only patent a method, not a product.
  • Since when does JunkBuster filter popup ads?

    --

  • This looks so spy vs spy! Man now you sue, and then turn around and sue over the same silly thing. When Juno first sued Netzero the Netzero dudes came around and begged for sympathy, even going as far as stressing that internet/soft patents are essentially evil. And now, a few months later we see the same company turning around and suing the initial suee (damn these words) over a similar and as mundane patent. If anyone wants jutice, I call for the burning of all USPO archives and databases.
    --
  • I suppose they are attempting to get some capital from this lawsuit to keep running. Their stock is at like 0.73, plus now if you go over 40 hours of "free" access, they are going to charge ya. (it might have been 45 hours) Glad I didn't invest in this company! ;) Plus, this whole lawsuit is just a big bunch of *rap.
  • here are many programs that pop up ads "outside the browser." For example, AceFTP pops up an ad when you quit it. This is outside any browser.

    It's not "persistent". RTF-article.

    Hotline Client has an ad running at all times.

    Probably covered by the patent. But it seems NZ got the patent specifically so they could go after Juno, so they most likely won't get sued.

  • Oh, that reminds me that I should patent the air that you all breathe.

    /me calls the patent office
    --
    Slashdot didn't accept your submission? hackerheaven.org [hackerheaven.org] will!

  • Aha! Then they should sue microsoft and those annoying popups that happen when you screw up something... er wait, those aren't advertising ;)
    --
    Slashdot didn't accept your submission? hackerheaven.org [hackerheaven.org] will!
  • Hopefully someone will now have legal grounds to sue all those porn sites with the popup windows :)
  • Gee, how many times have we seen *that* witty comment? 200? 300? More?

    Your originality is underwhelming.

    Note to moderators: anyone who posts a comments saying "I've patented breathing/eating/pooping/drooling/whacking off/scratching my ass/being downright stupid, etc, etc, etc..." should be modded down to -100 'I Got My Ass Kicked On A Daily Basis By That One-Legged Blind Girl in Kindergarten', pummeled viciously, then drug out back and shot.

  • Here's a new patent idea:

    A business model by which stupid and/or obvious ideas are patented and then violators are sued for money.

    I could make a fortune from this one patent alone, and never even have to provide a product or service or even come up with any other ideas! Anytime a company sues another over a stupid or obvious patent (one-click shopping, pop-up ads), I could sue them!

    It would also have the side benefit of preventing other stupid or obvious patents from being enforced. ;-)
  • Where I live, there's a new ISP called NoCharge.com [nocharge.com] that offers free, no-strings-attached unlimited dialup Internet access to anyone (they have numbers in Washington State, Oregon, New York, and Puerto Rico). The only catch is $10 per call to their tech support number (heh). The only problem is, their modem lines are always busy!

    Personally, I think this is a brilliant way to compete against both "free" (ad-based) ISPs such as Juno and NetZero and also pay-ISPs (AOL, MSN, local providers, etc.), and I hope it becomes the norm (even if such "truly-free" ISPs offer lower-quality service than pay-ISPs [which, btw, NoCharge doesn't AFAIK])

  • I agree with you sapphire. I just meant that I would like to see everyone have _access_ to free (no-ad) ISPs, even if their service is poor. That way, people can at least see what it's really like to get on the Internet. Then (as you say), if they're still not happy with the arrangement, they can pay for an account with a quality ISP.
  • Windows not using the browser? How many implementations of Java run as a separate program?
  • Not if I can sue them first for infringing upon my own patent. "A New Method for Patenting the Blatently Obvious."
  • Anyone who goes to porn sites and AOL.com as often as I do knows pop-ups are a pain.

    Oh well, at least nobody suprises me by having a popup showing me to goatse.cx, thank god.

    ---
    Never trust a guy who has his IP address tattoed to his arm, especially if it's DHCP
  • All software patents need to be thrown out the window. Thats what they are.. They are soft. written by soft people, who need to be shot. Why are they just going after NetZero? There are hundreds of others who are doing the same thing.

    Free ISP's?? They are not ISP's. They are just some login on some other ISP dialup like UUnet or whatever. Can you believe this shit? Their entire company is based on some piece of software that displays banner ads on peoples' desktops. They must be making a shitload of money, cause their costs are almost zero. All they need is 8 or so employees, and some kid in the back to maintain the client program, mostly just making changes to stop people from killing the ad. This d00d probably makes like $200,000/yr. I know people who probably work twice the ammount of hours and get about 10 percent of that. Then you have fuckers like 1stup.com, they make some 'shell' program, so other companies can have their own 'free isp'. Dammit this world sucks, I should kill myself now.

    Nevermind, I need to have a little fun before I self-terminate. c-ya later.

  • During a windows install from CD, windows will tell you about how wonderfull windows and other microsoft products are.

    And porn sites obviously popup windows too.

    -Daniel

  • There is no long run difference between NetZero not keeping up with the cracking and only keeping up with the apperance of cracking. If advertisers are finding they are seeing revenues from that advertising medium, they will pull their ads or pay less. What people don't realize is that advertisers aren't paying for a view, they are paying for a purchase (whether it is immediate or because of "presence"). Every small business article I've read focuses on figuring out how many people click through, and how many clickthroughs purchase, and then using that as a basis for how much you should spend on advertising. Companies aren't stupid when it comes to things like this.

    The only people being cheated by ad cracks are the people using the site. The advertisers don't pay more in the long run, they just adjust their prices downward, eventually making the entire advertising medium unviable.

  • I totally agree..

    Do people even look at what is patented?

    Popcorn boxes, paper bags, different types of cd holders, some types of paper towels, some types of pens that are VERY similar to other types of pens.

    Not even counting software patents there's much more stupid/obvious patents for tangable stuff.
    --

  • The telephone is not quite the same, sorry to say.

    That's like saying that rollerblades can't be patented because of roller skates. Same with other very similar devices that are patented.
    --

  • ummm, yeah

    They were the first to use it.
    --

  • I'm going to enjoy knowing that both of these free ISPs will use their last few dollars to squabble over a patent issue. In the meantime, both of them will go out of business (since their stock is now trading at less than a dollar a share, this end isn't too far away.)

    God forbid that either of them use their money to improve their product or anything. Sheesh.

  • Haiku (Score:1)

    by psm ( 105737 )

    Juno pops up ads
    NetZero wants to sue them
    Free ISPs suck

  • Good Insight, lets all support Netzero and hope they win.
  • It should be easy to hack JavaScript code in Mozilla and either deactivate popups forever or prompt for permission as it is already done for cookies. This would make Mozilla most user-friendly browser :-)
  • So how much money would NetZero get if a site put two different ads in the same pop-up? Would they have to pay twice?

    *shivers in horror*


    --Fesh

  • Mozilla definitely needs this feature, because other browsers such as MSIE (through security zones) and iCab already can selectively choose which sites or domains to use javascript (and other features). It's a rather simple feature which Netscape should have had long ago.
  • Popup ads have been around forever. Just because they were the first ISP to do it, they think they are the only ISP that gets to do it? I don't believe that for a second. They know perfectly well they're barking up a tree. If you want my opinion, and you probably don't, they probably are just trying find a new way to actually turning a profit. Being a legitimate buisiness didn't work, now maybe nuisance lawsuits will. . .
  • It only took them what? 14? 15 days?
    2000-12-13 03:40:50 NetZero joins Bad Patent Club (articles,patents) (rejected)
    Check out their press release...http://www.netzero.net/about_us/20001207 patent.html [netzero.net]
    "In total, NetZero has more than 50 patents pending on technologies that help us offer innovative ways for advertisers to reach millions of NetZero users, while maintaining a high quality experience for those users."
    Get that... FIFTY potential silly patents... well, I would say "hooray!" Netzero is going to wipe out advertising on the internet, but then the problem with that is that people will have to switch to a subscription model to make money. That is not good. 8(
    Also from that press release:
    "We believe this patent applies to the ad-delivery process used by many of our competitors for both targeted and untargeted advertisements and will provide NetZero with a significant competitive edge in this environment."
    Get it straight, NetZero, most of your competitors bit the dust in the last month or two, and in doing so made it nearly impossible to log on to you, and also made things so hard on you, you had to CHANGE YOUR BUSINESS MODEL [netzero.net].
    Remember CEOs of America: Competition is a good thing, Monopoly bad.
    Now, everyone.. sing along.. it's a little ditty by Queen...
  • yeah right!

    So other ISPs will no longer be allowed to pop up ads if this goes through? Will AOL users be happier than pigs in shit? Or will AOL scrub all mention of this from their news sources and no one will be the wiser?
    --
    Peace,
    Lord Omlette
    ICQ# 77863057
  • If I start a business where I give stuff away and don't make any money will Netzero sue me too?
  • Gee, how many times have we seen *that* witty comment? 200? 300? More?

    Hmm.. I just typed up an ultra-sarcastic, mean-spirited reply to this post, and Netscape crashed before I could send it. Maybe it's a sign that I shouldn't start a flame war over this (though it's probably deserved, you horrible, horrible person). The non-sarcastic version:

    I didn't read any of the comments on this page. Nor on any of the other patent-related posts. I didn't realize that my comment was somewhat unoriginal. So there. Maybe now you can call off my execution, you rat bastard.

  • It's sad that "silly patents" has become a weekly topic on Slashdot. Just today I came across these two silly patents:

    Patent on interactive TV [cnet.com]: How long have these sorts of ideas been around?

    Patent on prepaid cellular plans [cnet.com]: Paying for something in advance -- what a novel concept!

  • Who cares who owns the patent for advertising pop-up windows from an ISP? it's actually a fairly narrow application, limited to ISP's only. How does this affect the consumer? If an ISP tries to pass on to their customers the licensing fees for pop-ups they pay to NetZero, they'll get priced out of the super-competitive market - I mean, how much consumer loyalty is there really to ISP's anyway? *especially* the free ones?

    in principle, patents can be abused. But this one doesn't seem too bad nor a misuse - we shoudln't have a knee-jerk reaction to patents infringement suits. Making undue noise about this will detract from our community's reasonable and justofied outrage over far more subversive/abusive patents elsewhere that we need to educate the public about. This patent with NetZero is just a red herring.

  • More than likely it wasn't submitted as a patent by Juno because it is obvious. Why should a company waste time with patents for things which are not innovations? "Because someother company may patent this obvious idea" isn't a good excuse.

    Sorry, but stuping to the level of fools is no reason to do anything. What needs to happen is that fools submitting obvious patents get rejected, quickly.

    It is a clear extention from displaying an ad on a website to displaying an ad from an ISP. There is NO innovation here. Does changing the context of the use of a tool constitute innovation? No. Using a hammer to kill the patent officer of Netzero instead of sinking nails isn't innovation.

    And the folks on CNN wonder why tech stocks went bad...

  • I remember Juno from when all they were was a free e-mail service. They required you to use a special client that displayed adds at the top of the message window if I remember correctly. Probably a bit if prior art there, though thank god did not "pop-up".

    I head that the fastest growing profession in the USA is the leagal profession. One wonders were things have gone wrong.

    - subsolar

    BTW I would love to do some beating with a Clue by Four ... just don't want to be sued myself!

  • The prior art is in Juno itself,even if it could not be found elsewhere. Sheesh this is stupid.

  • They're both infringing on my patent on advertising.

  • They'll license the 'technology' man! So much for every popup... if this BS passes at least p0rnz sites will keep the popup hysteria to the minimum... BTW When will some dude patent base-n number representation ;-)
  • I hope Bush tries to do something about this ludicrous situation, but knowing politicians, I won't be holding my breath

    Poor guy... Bush's brother already filed in Florida offices for a patent on Non-click shopping for elders. This apparatus allows senior people to buy travel tickets and fishing equipment by mean of a tactile screens that avoid the use of computer mouse.

    I don't want to comment about his Apparatus for decoding voting intentions patent filing. It's offtopic.

    --ricardo

  • I very briefly worked for the company that did support for Netzero. On windows anyway, the popup code was hacked within a day.

    The fun thing about doing support was the $14.95 per incident charge. The typical call went: "Oh you can't connect? that's 14.95. Now we have you connected you can't get mail? 14.95 please. And you need help with news groups? another 14.95........ ad infinitum

  • Im still trying to decide: Is this good or bad for me? I don't want NetZero to have a patent over something stupid like that, but on the other hand, I won't have 50 new windows popping up when going to some sites. I hate moving windows around.

    ----------------
    I am Moldy.

  • Ummm. Tried using AOL recently?
  • Good grief, some of our customers would be broke with an arrangement like that! I talk to many of our dial-up customers on a *weekly* basis, some of them even more frequently. It has nothing to do with our internet service, it has to do with most of them not knowing how to use the freaking computer. *Many* local ISP customers get MORE than their monies worth of the paltry 17.95/month fee just in tech support alone, at least from our service. Plus the fact that we keep a 5 to 1 user/modem ratio, so no busies :-) I still think there is a place for paid ISPs and free ones. We get customers everyday who switch to our service because their free one is busy all of the/they can't get help/the local number went out of door/the ads/etc. I wouldn't pay for a service like AOL, to be honest, but a good provider is worth the money.
  • With their prior art on the term "pop", i.e. kellog's pop tarts and corn pops cereal???
  • ... patents working for the good of mankind. I sincerely hope that the company with the patent sues ALL other companies who open f*****g popup windows all over the place.

    Hopefully, someone else has patented 'resizing your browser to be unusefully large' and will start litigation soon.
  • They are not an 'obvious extension', it's worse than that, they were _designed in_. That's what the feature was for all along.

    FP.
    -- Real Men Don't Use Porn. -- Morality In Media Billboards
  • A popup with a close icon in the corner.
    A dialog box with a 'don't open' button.

    They sound too similar to me.

    However you're right about the usefulness of a feature that lets one specify "don't open new windows for/from juno.com",
    -- Real Men Don't Use Porn. -- Morality In Media Billboards
  • This is semantically the same as arguing about angels on the head of a pin.

    "Anyone at all skilled in the art"
    and
    "Someone of ordinary skill in the art"
    only differ by where you draw the line for the application of the adjective 'skilled'.

    If you say the former I will simply tighten the requirements for the use of the word skilled. How does "one is not 'skilled' until awarded a professorship in that field at either Oxford or Cambridge University" sound? I'd let temporary visiting professors count, so that guys like Feynman could be called skilled at Physics.

    So, how many angels do you think would fit?

    FatPhil


    -- Real Men Don't Use Porn. -- Morality In Media Billboards

  • Re:As you mention Microsoft OS (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    How are those stock options owrking out for ya?
    That lame paycheck isn't looking so good anymore huh?

    MS has already ruined slashdot because a herd of cats will always be crushed by a organized and well funded attack by paid professional posters with a master plan. What MS did to slashdot will go in the annals of history as the most succesful attack on a community since the indians were wiped out with smallpox infected blankets. Like the earliest proponents of biological warfare MS knows that poison and disease are best spread as useful items and infiltrated into a society.

  • Actually, I think the wording is more like, "someone of ordinary skill in the art." But you're right, you probably won't find anyone like that working in the patent office.

  • The patent says: "pop up windows, ouside the browser" All the web sites pop ads via the browser, not seperate software like the various ad banners the free ISP's use.

    kashani
  • In the '20's, the Telephone Co. claimed the exclusive rights, under certain patents and patent-licensing agreements, to sell radio time and operate "toll" stations. This provision, the Telephone Co. insisted gave it the exclusive right to sell time over a "toll" station. The assertion of these rights was a substantial factor in giving it a position of leadership during the early days of broadcasting.

    That's right - once upon a time, selling radio time to advertisers was an exclusive, patented right owned by the Telco!

    Not only that (and this relates to the slow deployment of DSL by CLEC's), the phone company owned the lines used to build a broadcasting network. RCA, who wanted to build a competing network, was not allowed to use phone lines - they had to use lower quality telegraph lines for audio feed. This, plus the inability to develope the business side by its being prevented from selling commercial time to advertisers, the vigorous competition which RCA might have offered was hampered.
  • "What's to keep somebody from setting up an autodialer with 32 or so modems and tying up every one of their lines?"

    other than the need for 32 phone lines, modems, and serial ports to connect them to? nothing, i guess. :)

    "Anybody have any experience with how busy their modem bank is?"

    i believe they have a fairly large modem pool; i've used their tacoma dialup 4 or 5 times, and it was only busy once. so i just used the other tacoma number, and got on immidiately.

    i guess they block port 25 when you connect as "guest" now, because of spammers abusing the service. but i haven't heard about any other abuses of their service.
    --
  • if you have to use a dial-up, use NoCharge [nocharge.com]. you can register for an account for free, or just login as "guest" with a password of "password".

    they have dialups for washington, oregon, new york, and puerto rico, and are planning on nationwide access Real Soon Now(tm). here's [nocharge.com] the list.

    they charge for tech support, which is how they hope to make a profit. dunno how long they'll last, but it's decent while it's around.
    --
  • Imagine if everybody decides their PCs are now "good enough..."

    M$ would have to get out of the "'shirk'wrap" business and into something that's long-term and sustainable. It'll be "Back-side to the Future" :-)
  • I seem to remember that prodigy had a graphical interface when they first came out, years and years ago...

    Didn't that interface have "pop-up" ads? Anyone remember?

    Say, anyone remember HBBS for the Apple II? just thought I'd throw that out there ;) I'll bet they did a lot of stuff that people are claiming patents for.
    W
    -------------------
  • Note, it ONLY says the patent is for ISP's.

    Note, these days almost any website that provides a service is considered an ISP (at least in DMCA terms). This includes all the free-webpage sites like Xoom and Geocities -- er, I mean NBCi and Yahoo... sigh... I miss good ol' Xoom.

    __________________________________________________ ___

  • I just gave them more to think about. I told them that I'm about to install NetZero for some relatives but now have to reconsider. I want to hear what they have to say to counteract anti-NZ word of mouth.
  • Has anyone else noticed that pop-up ads appear to be becoming mainstream? At first it was just geocities, and I'd always cringe when I followed a link there (although nowadays they're pretty unobtrusive), but very recently mainstream sites like abcnews.com are starting to carry pop-up ads, and it annoys me to the extent I'm starting to avoid them.
  • How about instead of polluting screen real estate for a free ISP, how about customers donate spare CPU cycles instead? Do a SETI-like project for coroprations on/offline and have big corps buy lots of cpu cycles which makes everyone happy.
  • I've noticed within the last month pretty much EVERY website is doing pop-up ads now. Whether it's porn sites or non-porn sites, don't be surprised if your favorite big corporate website such as CNN(yahoo's probably next) are popping up not one but TWO windows.

    Ugh. http://www.comp-u-geek.net is the worst.
  • I mean popping up additional windows is built into javascript, whatever their content. In the same way cookies were meant to store information on the clientside to faciliate informationgathering later (one click patent).

    I mean this is like patenting doing 'xy' in a do loop in fortan because 'we did it first in a do loop'. Or like patenting the display of ads in graphical form (as gif) on a web-browser. The functionality to do just that (not specifically with ads but with anything) was provided by the developpers of javascript/html. The functionality of popping up additional windows was probably even developped with ads in mind.

    If they get that patent someone should go and patent the idea of using gifs/etc. for advertising altogether, to show just how ridiculous it all is. As an afterthought: i hope they get this patent, i hate that popping up advertisement windows anyway (so much, i almost always switch off javascript)
  • I don't know. Maybe Digital Convergence will turn around and sue NetZero for that business model?
  • Didn't Prodigy have that back in 1985?
  • NetZero stock has tanked. In a desparate attempt to prop up it's value, it's officers are attempting to find ANYTHING of value. Patents are a tangible asset. NetZero has NotZero chance of winning this lawsuit, but as long as they're still litigating it, the worthless patents are listed as assets on the balance sheet.

    In the end, this will not keep NetZero out of the bankruptcy courts. Perhaps some Linux millionaire could pick up the patents cheap after bankruptcy, just to prevent anyone else from using this obnoxious business model?

  • If I were to make a time machine and used a Black & Decker toaster oven at the core of it [...]

    I sense the need for a new moderation "flavor":

    Gratuitous Simpsons reference: +/- 1

    Unless the above was an unwitting recasting of an unforgettable Simpsons Halloween sequence [snpp.com].

    "Stupid bug! You go squish now!"

  • NetZero is simply striking back against Juno for a similar lawsuit that Juno filed against them. In other words, they were tired of standing there letting Juno take potshots and they fired back. Hopefully a court will rule one of the patents unenforceable, thus having the same effect on the other. If not, NetZero wants some insurance to keep the playing field level. Sure, it's cheap, but Juno was the one that started playing dirty in the first place.

  • I watched some of the NetZero ads during South Park last night....

    I love the mock "testifying" before congress that the Internet should be free... and that they actually have "Defenders of the Free World" trademarked... "defenders of our left nut" is more appropriate for them.
  • I'm wondering about ad-bars like AllAdvantage, and that sort of thing... wouldn't that be prior art as well?
  • Netzero is a free isp (for those of you who didn't know) and while you are using their dialup service a window opens up onscreen and stays on top until you disconnect. This window is not a browser window it doesn't popup from a webpage. It's an application window. And it displays rotating ads chosen by the ISP (netzero in this case) no matter what web(porn)site you are browsing.

  • It would seem to me that the arbiter of that decision should be the average man in the street. Although it such matters may seem obvious to the /. community, they is by no means obvious to the common man. Isn't that what really matters?

    No! Of course not. The man on the street is a moron. I've met him. Lots of times.

    If it has to be obvious to the man on the street, then I should be able to patent using two web browser windows at the same time to look at two different sites. The man on the street wouldn't know you could do this.

    Or, I could patent looking at pornography on the internet. OK, so the man on the street would know you could do this.

    Most patents are technical. You need a technical audience to evaluate them.

  • In the wake of their announcement that they will be chargine $9.95 to users who use more than 40 hours a month, it would seem that they are doing everything they can to increase their revenues and become the dominant force in the free isp game.

    Riiiiight... nothing like charging some of your customers $9.95 a month to become the dominant force in the free ISP game.

  • The big problem I have with the endless barracking that Amazon and other companies are constantly given for their patenting policies is that I just don't know who precisely decides if an idea is 'obvious' or not.

    It would seem to me that the arbiter of that decision should be the average man in the street. Although it such matters may seem obvious to the /. community, they is by no means obvious to the common man. Isn't that what really matters?

    Furthermore, another quibble I have is with the allegations that Amazon et al are behaving in a morally incorrect manner by seeking to get these patents granted. If there is a fault, that fault is with the patent office, not with companies that are merely trying to maximise their revenue stream. If I were a shareholder at Amazon, I would be extremely annoyed if Amazon refused to seek these patents.

    So I plead with you: blame the government and the patent office, because in this matter any faults are theirs, and theirs alone.

    KTB:Lover, Poet, Artiste, Aesthete, Programmer.

  • > I don't understand how NetZero can even
    > patent that concept since they didn't
    > even come up with it.

    Did Amazon.com come up with one click shopping? They have the patent for it!
  • You know, I didn't invent the Sun, but I bet I can patent it. Then I can demand royalties from every beach, every sunblock maker, and blackmail NASA into sending me up in the space shuttle so they don't have to pay me back royalties on all those solar cells they use ;)

    Then I'll patent stars, and sue the RIAA for royalties from every song they've published that refers to stars.

  • Even if neither of them invented the pop-up ad they should be sued for using the annoying things, sheesh! Mental Anguish, Pain and Suffering due to eye-strain, Loss of Income by wasting my time...

    Well, wait, I shouldn't complain since I refuse to visit sites that use pop-ups, maybe it should just be a class action suit.

  • What about all the other pop up ads that you see all over the place? I don't understand how NetZero can even patent that concept since they didn't even come up with it. Done and over with, oh well. But seriously, what about places like Geocities and Tripod and such. They provide a free service with pop up advertisements. Does that mean NetZero will attack those as well?

  • Re:Yep...It's the Republicians fault... (Score:3)

    by Danse ( 1026 ) on Wednesday December 27, 2000 @04:46PM (#539660)

    Clinton was president for EIGHT YEARS! Why didn't he do something?

    Cause he would have to get Congress to actually make a law to undo the damage they already did. Not bloody likely. He probably didn't pay much attention to the patent issue really. If the political will isn't there, and the people aren't bitching at you on a fairly large scale, it's not gonna get done.

    Now, it's true that the Republicans DID turn the PTO into a profit center. They cut it off and told it that it had to earn its own bread. That was moronic. The patent office shouldn't be encouraged to grant patents in order to ensure its own solvency. It's supposed to grant those patents that are deserving and no more. That should require that it hire competent examiners and do thorough research. That costs money. That's the price of our patent system. Unfortunately, the PTO does not hire competent examiners (or at least none with the skills required to evaluate software-related patents), does not do thorough research before granting a patent, and is constantly trying to expand the realm of what can be patented (which is certainly not their role). All the Republicans did was create a mess of conflicts of interest, that happen to make it easy to get a patent on any stupid software trick you care to name.

  • Re:On the positive side.... (Score:3)

    by Jeff DeMaagd ( 2015 ) on Wednesday December 27, 2000 @04:05PM (#539661) Homepage Journal
    Maybe I am misunderstanding something...

    I wonder what Microsoft would think about when someone else patents what boilds down to a simple set of calls to their OS?

    I think it was a "feature" or a "bug" that was introduced somewhere by Netscape anyways to allow pop-ups to be called by a web page anyways, how different is that?

    I haven't been much of a defender or a detractor of the patent system, I now think it definitely needs an overhaul.

  • Re:On the positive side.... (Score:3)

    by Penrif ( 33473 ) on Wednesday December 27, 2000 @03:53PM (#539662) Homepage
    You are incorrect-ish.

    If Netzero wins, they'll be the only ones that will be able to pop up adds for free. They'll likely licence the idea (yes, that's ridiculous). End result: Netzero makes a lot of money and companys will have to make bigger ads to pay for the ability to display them.

  • Re:On the positive side.... (Score:3)

    by Coward, Anonymous ( 55185 ) on Wednesday December 27, 2000 @04:20PM (#539663)
    I wonder what Microsoft would think about when someone else patents what boilds down to a simple set of calls to their OS?

    If I were to make a time machine and used a Black & Decker toaster oven at the core of it, I should be able to patent this time machine even though only some or possibly none of the raw materials were actually manufactured by me, Black & Decker should have no control over my time machine (in the same way that the company that supplies steel to Black & Decker should have no control over the items that their steel is used to make). Similarly, if I use calls to Microsoft's OS in a new and innovative way, Microsoft was just the supplier of the raw materials (figuratively speaking, of course) for my software and shouldn't have any special rights over it.

  • It aint worth it (Score:3)

    by pc486 ( 86611 ) on Wednesday December 27, 2000 @03:50PM (#539664) Homepage
    I'm betting that NetZero is just trying to save thier ass. As the article points out, both company's stock dropped dramatically. This is NetZero's chance to destroy Juno. However, both sides will be hurt in legal costs. Since this patent is invalidated because of previous art (just look at Tripod) the court case will probably be dropped, but only after some hefty legal fees. Will they die? I don't know, but I do know that this case isn't worth even having a story. Let them hit eachother as it sure as heck wont matter in the long run.

  • Netzero a bit strapped for cash? (Score:3)

    by Ibag ( 101144 ) on Wednesday December 27, 2000 @04:03PM (#539665)
    In the wake of their announcement that they will be chargine $9.95 to users who use more than 40 hours a month, it would seem that they are doing everything they can to increase their revenues and become the dominant force in the free isp game.

    Then again, as they have it in their budget to launch a television advertising campaign, perhaps they are not as close to going broke as some of the other free isps which now lie dead are...

    Ibag

  • Where is the Prior Art? (Score:3)

    by Alien54 ( 180860 ) on Wednesday December 27, 2000 @04:44PM (#539666) Journal
    I mean, pop ups have been around next to forever, right? And these guys patented it just last year?

    This is just as silly as that british company suing Prodigy for the use of hyperlinks, claiming that they invented it, even though prior art is demonstrated on video going back into the 60s (I think)

    Someone needs to beat this guys with a clue by four. There are to many lawyers with to much time on their hands.

    Bright Idea:

    Everyone who wants to be a corporate lawyer has to be sterilized first.

  • Re:Who decides if ideas are obvious? (Score:3)

    by jonatha ( 204526 ) on Wednesday December 27, 2000 @03:47PM (#539667)
    The rule is that a patentable idea should not be obvious to "one skilled in the art." The problem is that the patent office doesn't seem to hire any software engineers...

  • Re:Dont get too excited... (Score:3)

    by dogkow ( 210471 ) on Wednesday December 27, 2000 @07:04PM (#539668) Homepage
    Note, it ONLY says the patent is for ISP's. That leaves all your non-isps on the web to pop up any banners they want.

    Well Microsoft is an ISP (MSN). Does that mean they can't use pop up ads in their software products? Because like someone said earlier, Windows has ads when you install it.

    And what about AOL? They've been doing pop up ads (outside of a browser) with their software far longer than NetZero has.

  • Re:On the positive side.... (Score:3)

    by mikethegeek ( 257172 ) <blair&NOwcmifm,comSPAM> on Wednesday December 27, 2000 @04:39PM (#539669) Homepage
    "What about all the other pop up ads that you see all over the place? I don't understand how NetZero can even patent that concept since they didn't even come up with it. According to the article, they patented the technology for an ISP to display a popup ad, the popups you see all over the place are from websites and (i hope) not from your ISP."

    Guess they didn't have enough balls to sue AOL, the king of the annoying ISP log-on pop up ads.

    Not to mention the fact that AOL's been doing this at least 10 years before NetZero ever came into existance. Why is it that that USPTO grants these things without ANY effort at verifying their claims? What, do they take their word for it? If that's the case I think I'll patent the wheel.

  • Dont get too excited... (Score:4)

    by CBoy ( 129544 ) on Wednesday December 27, 2000 @03:44PM (#539670) Homepage
    "to NetZero's zCast technology that allows an ISP to display an advertising pop-up window"

    Note, it ONLY says the patent is for ISP's. That leaves all your non-isps on the web to pop up any banners they want.

  • Juno sued Netzero a while back (Score:4)

    by Maldivian ( 264175 ) on Wednesday December 27, 2000 @03:47PM (#539671)
    According to this [timesofindia.com] times of india story and Cnet [cnet.com] story, June sued Netzeo in summer over the advertisments that are displayed when the customer is offline.

  • Is the use of salt as a food flavoring obvious? (Score:5)

    by crovira ( 10242 ) on Wednesday December 27, 2000 @03:57PM (#539672) Homepage
    You really have to hand it to the management of the USPO, since Bush Senior, or was it under Reagan, turned the patent office into a "profit center" they are just shoving patents out the door.

    Prior art? Never heard of it!

    Research? I doan even reed da formz!

    Boss says I got a quota to make. I don't care if I have to patent breathing. My Christmass bonus is based on how many I get out the door so hand me my rubber stamp and don't get betwen me and the ink pad.

  • Re:On the positive side.... (Score:5)

    by Coward, Anonymous ( 55185 ) on Wednesday December 27, 2000 @03:50PM (#539673)
    What about all the other pop up ads that you see all over the place? I don't understand how NetZero can even patent that concept since they didn't even come up with it.

    According to the article, they patented the technology for an ISP to display a popup ad, the popups you see all over the place are from websites and (i hope) not from your ISP.

  • NetZero are boneheads (Score:5)

    by thex23 ( 206256 ) on Wednesday December 27, 2000 @03:47PM (#539674) Homepage
    According to someone who does phone support on a contract with NetZero, they have to constantly change their software to stay ahead of the banner ad cracks. Well, not ahead of the cracking, per se, more the APPEARANCE of cracking, in that they don't want their advertisers (who are quite happy forking out cash to NetZero per ad viewed) from getting wind of what is really an inevitable result: people will abuse this stuff, because they can and it's easy.

    This has the unavoidable effect of screwing over the less with-it customers of NetZero, who get caught in the "I upgraded to 3.1, but it doesn't work, and I can't go back to 3.0, so what do I do?" They used to tell people to re-install Bindows... until they realized that most people will be completely up the creek, without disks to reinstall their appz.

    So now they just pass the buck and pretend there is not problem. Which is hard when you a) can't get a net connection anymore, b) don't have any alternate connection, and c) don't have the original software on disk. And they don't want to send out thousands of CDs to people, either.

    I'm just glad I don't have to do phone support for these boneheads.

  • On the positive side.... (Score:5)

    by nurikochan ( 247910 ) on Wednesday December 27, 2000 @03:42PM (#539675)

    If Netzero wins, no one but Netzero will be able to pop up adds.

    Horay! Now I no longer need junkbuster! [junkbuster.com]

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