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Walking Around In Spherical VR 118

Posted by timothy from the go-read-"the-veldt" dept.
GDaddy writes: "Space Daily has a report on a collaboration between University of Warwick's Warwick Manufacturing Group and VR Systems UK that spawned a VR system without dimensional boundaries. Called the Cybersphere, It combines the ease of use of the CAVE system (no head mounts, big projected walls), with the lack of distance limitations of, well, of no VR system developed so far. They say it allows a person to walk, run, and crawl smoothly and naturally around an arbitrarily large VR world by putting the user in a rolling sphere suspended on air bearings. But wouldn't the sphere's inertia cause a noticable lag when you start or stop walking, or when you change direction? They don't address it, and I'll remain dubious until I roll it on my own."
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Walking Around In Spherical VR

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  • The dates mentioned in the article are from 1998. The idea itself isn't new either. At least one person has though about it as early as 1990 (me :-)

    BTW, if they wish to follow the motion of the sphere without requiring any contact they can use the same mechanism as the MS IntelliEye mouse.


    ----
  • It's nice to see a troll with a sense of humour, keep it up!

  • So have I (Re:I have been in this thing) (Score:4)

    by theno23 ( 27900 ) on Tuesday October 24, 2000 @12:56AM (#681189) Homepage
    Other problems (when I tried it - a couple of years ago now).

    * Noise
    * Lag
    * Wobble (the sphere wasn't that rigid)
    * Image alignment problems

    Also if I remember right there was a problem with direction and turning, but I can't think what it was.

    That said it was quite impressive.

  • I have been in this thing (Score:4)

    by Zemran ( 3101 ) on Tuesday October 24, 2000 @12:06AM (#681190) Homepage Journal
    My work sent me to try this thing out whilst it was in development. Although I felt it had a lot of potential it should not be mistaken for the answer to our synthetic prayers.

    You take a step and then it moves, your weight further up the sphere causes it to rotate as you sink back to the lowest point. As it rotates the synthetic environment is updated. As a result the lag is a serious problem. This is extremely unnerving and caused me to fall over a couple of times. I really recommend against trying to run in one of these things.

    When I got in they had to refit the panels that covered the entrance, therefore this was not something you could play with on your own.

    On the up side there is none of the motion sickness that can be caused by VR glasses.
  • I could just see somebody trying to stop from a dead run, thereby whirling upside down, landing on top of their head, which would make that unlucky person likely the first virtual fatality.

    This is a serious comment, and I definitely should not be joking about it, but arrrggghh, can't resist, must joke. Theme Hospital 2.0 VR anyone?
  • For ventilation, just make microperforations. Could be good for the sound too, but it might cause problems with the aircushion that is supposed to suspend the sphere. Proper layout of the perforations could prevent that i assume. I think the trick will be to prevent people from falling over all the time. Imagine playing a soccer match inside this contraption ;-)

  • Moving floor? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Couldn't this be implemented with those kind'of tracks that are on excercie machines (please excuse my bad english), that is, a "moving floor", only that it should be able to move sideways too. That way it should be possible to track the movement, of say your foot when you raise it, and then just shift the floor accordingly. Atleast that way you wouldn't need to rotate the entire sphere.
  • Take a look at KTH's version KTH/PDC's CAVE [pdc.kth.se] ("VR Cube"), it's based on CAVE tech too but have been around a little longer. I have tested it and while it's extremly cool (you can almost feel that big 3D object in your hand) it has some clear limitations. It is very messy to be several people in there at once. To many cables, you do not feel free because of all the cables.

    One more problem is that you can see the edges, where the walls join. I think this could be solved with a sphere, but I'm not sure how they are going to do fullimmersion 3D without headtracking (now talking about the Oxford project). The cool thing with the VR Cube and all CAVEs out there is that you can acctually leen over an object and see what behind it, this adds alot to the feeling. So I hope the Oxford guys understand that that they have to have headtracking.

    Anyone got a sub $2000 headtracking system? (Tracking at least four objects)

  • Nah, you apply an initial resistance to the sphere so that you dont have this problem. Plus, if you made the sphere large enough you wouldnt notice the inclined sides when you walked.

    It would mean, however, that objects and external influences to your motion would also have to "feed back" into the sphere, which could be tricky. Hmm..



    ~matt~
    0
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  • What if you were in a car simulation but really really really needed to go to the toilet??


    Answer me that!!

    ~matt~
    0
    o
    .
    ><>
  • Yay! yet another dated article (1998)... sure it looks interesting, but where's the update after 2 years? I love it when people get excited over vapor. I could just as well put up a few "technical" drawings of my magic flying saucer and post it to slashdot a few years from now... hm... not a bad idea!
    is this really news for nerds? stuff that matters?
  • Actually, he's almost got it here. Don't attach these devices directly to the boot!Attach them to 2 12x6" platforms, which can float underneath your boots.flying simply pulls them out from under your feet, suspending you in the air (provided you are wearing a harness). Stairs could be done, even the kicking, running that you want. Just reduce the force somewhat, so chances of injury are reduced.

    The hands I'm afraid won'tt work though, would need too many of these devices in all kinds of shapes and sizes. Still, you're on the right track, I think. This will kick ass until I can get my direct neural connection inplanted.
  • Telefeedback, force feedback, and a few other buzznames for the same thing. It's just like power steering. You move something a little bit in one way, and some simple hydraulic valvery assists greatly. Throw in some pressure sensors in the sphere, and it can tell if you're starting to change direction. Some low-speed computer can keep up with this information. No more complex than a large Caterpillar-style tractor.

    But on the other hand, let's not fixate on inertia. I bet your system adapts to it really quickly. Riding a unicycle is non instantaneous in changing directions. You have to kind of work at it. Not a major effort, but it does take /thought/.
  • What is stopping you from stepping off the sphere in this case?
  • No, with shutter glasses or some kind of polaroid glasses, you get real 3D. Then you can you emulate a wall.
  • Why don't you just put down the twinkies ... and take a walk outside. That'll have the same result.

  • cool looking project. but some concerns have caught my eye:

    air supply?

    exit?

    where is the panic switch?

  • "So there I was, Doctor, in the Avengers movie scenario, when I lost my balance in the middle of the river. Last thing I remember was dropping my Coke and then it's all flashes of water and the villain shooting..."
  • But wouldn't the sphere's inertia cause a noticable lag when you start or stop walking, or when you change direction? They don't address it, and I'll remain dubious until I roll it on my own.

    They could vary the mass of the sphere according to your mass. If you have a sphere made of a chunk of steel it'll take a lot of effort to overcome it's inertia, but if it was made of styrofoam (remember, this is hypothetical) it would go spinning every which way. I imagine after some R&D they could come up with a platform which could have it's mass adjusted on the fly.

    There's my 2 cents.



    Catch me on AIM: SigningiS

  • But in VR shouldn't one want the ability to climb stairs, go uphill, and the like? I know this probably isn't something doable yet, but still, that'd be something more than the world ends at a certain point. Who really wants to walk around a endless flat plain?
  • ... do you breathe in that thing ?

    I'm not so worried about breathing (li'l holes), but DO NOT use it after having the chili special at lunch...
  • People have been suggesting this for ages. I've heard people call this idea a hampster vr, or a bi directional treadmill. For your own home vr stuff, a plain old treadmill would be pretty cool. There are actually systems designed around that idea. Lots of ppl have suggested a hampster ball, just no one has built one as far as I know. If they build it its an engineering/programming feat, but not innovative.
  • The diagram of this seems to depend on a second wheel to move it's mouse-like sensors. Couldn't something similar to the non-mechanical motion sensors in Logitech's trackballs or MS's ball-less mice be used to simplify this? The less moving parts the better (and cheaper).

    I know Logitech's ball has dots printed on its surface, presumably to aid the optical sensor (unless it's magnetic), so such a system may affect the quality of the projections. MS's mouse sensor can operate on any surface provided it is not transparent, so it may be preferred.

    Also interesting is the topic concerning color LED spotlights currently on /. It seems very applicable to this product, should it prove to be more cost effective than standard projectors.

    I hope the inventors of this will be loose with the patent. With enough competition, this could be in our homes before long. Wasn't it predicted in "The Age Of Spiritual Machines" that PC graphics would be lifelike by 2007?

    Feedback appreciated.

    -Gary

    "sigs cause cancer"
  • Tesla was not an englishman. He was european (I forget the country, and because I RESPECT my facts, I won't guess as to which) but gained American citizinship. And he did not try and pass off anyone's ideas for himself. Marconi tried to pass off Tesla's ideas as his own. When Marconi made the trans-atlantic signal, he was using 14 devices designed and pattented by Tesla, produced by Westinghouse. Tesla demonstrated radio transmission several years before Marconi, and unlike Marconi, actually knew what was going on.
  • Shouldn't be too much of a problem as long as you stay upright with your head close to your center of gravity. I can see your point though, if you are crawling around on hands and knees. Maybe they attach a "this end up" marker on your forehead to track your point of perspective.
  • Or even live out your fantasies with Lara Croft.
  • The sphere would begin moving under it's own power almost the same time the user started to move. Kind of like force feedback in reverse, the program being run would have preconceived notion as to what movement a user would make based on certain conditions. Say, there's a dragon lich directly in front of the level 1 user. Forward movement is unlikely, left or right movement is likely, backward movement is most likely, medium to maximum speed is likely, maximum speed is most likely. Then the computer would sense the position of the users feet, how the user was balanced, etc, and determine which movements the user was in position to preform easily, eliminate likelihoods and refine the notion. The instant the user began to move the computer would react and move based on the refined notion. Almost as immediately, the computer could sense if the user had done something unexpected. Such as, the user was poised to run but charged the dragon lich instead. In which case the computer would implement plan B, the dragon lich stomps, or does something spectacular to explain why the user feels the ground move under him, and perhaps this also serves to distract the user from the inconstancy. An AI that recorded and analyzed the user's reactions to situations would be helpful in predicting the user's next movement.
  • The idea works great - Austrian artist group timesup.org [timesup.org] have presented their Body Spin [timesup.org] at this years Ars Electronica [www.aec.at] to much acclaim.

    You're right about the inertia though - you have to watch your speed carefully, or else...

    gl03.-

  • "to think that anyone wants vr to replicate RL is fundamentally flawed logic." Look, the thing is, most people don't want VR to be JUST LIKE RL. However, i think for many people, the more real the better. I mean, with VR you could experience things you just can't in RL. You could basically "time travel" back to the middle ages, and fight in duels with people or do all sorts of things. You could use magic even. And I don't think i'm alone here when i say that the closer i can get to feeling magic course through my veins and create some effect....i mean, that would be AWESOME. And if people don't want VR to be like RL, then why bother making it more realistic at all?

    Today was just a day fading into another-Counting Crows

  • The thing is, with an A glove, goggles, and mouse, it still isn't realistic. Have you EVER thought that the world you were in was real? The movements are so different than in real life; you move the mouse instead of walking. The sphere addresses that very issue; you walk the same way you always have. Walking and running are the same as always. It is just one more step towards realism. Of course, those with cerebral palsy or broken legs would probably prefer the other methods of VR....

    Today was just a day fading into another-Counting Crows

  • I rather have A glove (a la NES), goggles, and a mouse.

    I forget where this was from, but I remember the quote, and it seems apropos:

    When the term "virtual reality" came into play, Sociologists panicked and predicted that people would withdraw from the real world in favor of the virtual. When the experienced turned out to be more like playing Pac-Man with a bowling ball taped to your head, the excitement died down.
  • This seems a little dangerous. What happens when the user loses his balance? Is there anything to catch him? Also, if I understand this correctly, it seems like one might be able to get the poles to cross by crossing his legs.
  • Maann.. I don't know if I could stomach Tribes. Imagine getting hit square in the chest with a shockwave cannon and being thrown off a platform, spinning wildly through the air, plummeting hundreds and hundreds of feet, until your eventual gory collision with the ground below.

    That's the kind of thing that'll give you post-traumatic stress disorder.
  • You spent a year there and you pronounced it War-ick? It is Wa-rick !!! They must have thought you simple...
  • Wolfenstein. Aw yeah.

    My .02,

  • I think that's just the problem with the spherical model. It would be easy to render terrain - but rendering an actual object, like a brick being thrown at your head, or a glass of beer, or a naked woman, would be considerably more difficult.

    As for actually having sex with the naked woman... well, this isn't the device for that. I think you're going to have to wait for the nanorobots that interface directly with your brain.
  • Super Wacky Fun Shoes.

    (short-lived product made by Mattel in the mid-eighties)

  • That's the bigest trackball I've _ever_ seen!
  • Having played CAVE-Quake, having the ability to actually move around instead of having to stand still in the middle and use the "joystick" would to me seem like a very nice improvement.

    Someone mentioned the sound being a potential problem for the sphere, but unless you're after perfect digital AC5 surrond , I can say that it will not be a problem. The CAVE system I was using had a modest audio equipment setup, but explosions, grunts, rocket launches, etc sounded well enough for me. And the directional bit was accurate enough to locate enemies by sound as well.

    The only thing is, that considering how disoriented I got after a few minutes playing, I don't want to find out how it would be inside a sphere =)
    But I'm damn sure it'd be one hell of game experience! CAVE-Quake was just superb.. can't really imagine what a SPHERE-Quake would be like, except for "damn intense" :)
  • You're not a skier are you? =) If I read your paragraph in falling into a horizontal position correct, you think the boots should be able to rise the person by being able to support the persons weight? If that's the case I can tell you he'll have two broken legs pretty soon. =) If I've misinterpeted you, you have my apologies.

  • Re:Gerbils? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    What is stopping you from stepping off the sphere in this case?

    The sensors that detect your moving off the sphere, which spins the sphere to keep you over it. That's why the water nipple is there, so you won't dehydrate until you've finished the payments on the sphere.

  • Not better than a CAVE, just different... (Score:3)

    by Mike Connell ( 81274 ) on Tuesday October 24, 2000 @02:08AM (#681228) Homepage
    (IMHO). I routinely take *groups* of people into a CAVE, I can't see myself being able to do that with this thing (8 people all trying to walk in different directions?). The other advantage is that you can leave one side of a CAVE open, and people outside can look in and see stuff (kind of like a big bent powerwall), so you can be showing VR to say 20 people. You can't do that with this device.

    OTOH, it looks pretty cool, and has definate new-and-funky appeal.

    Mike.
  • To think that anyone wants VR to replicate RL is fundamentally flawed logic. No one wants RL replicated. People want minimum effort, maximum return, and to escape if nothing else. Any VR approximating RL will fail quickly and brutally. I dont think I'm alone when I say, I have no need to physically (stand!) walk around in a world in realtime when I could be sitting comfortably and speeding through a world as fast as my perceptions can handle. There is no advantage to the bubble other than novelty. Cyberspace will not be complementary to physical space (other than armslength in front of you), ever.

    Often wrong but never in doubt.
    I am Jack9.
  • Personally, I think if you can afford one of these gadgets, having sex with _actual_ women is not going to really be a problem :)

    Gfunk
  • Just sitting back and waiting for Doug Englebart to call the patent police on this one! (that is, after they're finished with the whole "one-click ordering" hullaballoo...
  • Well you'd have to wear body suits and bumping into each other would be simulated. Which is to be expected in a virtual world. That way you can't tell who is real and who isn't.
  • But I doubt I can fit one of them into my dorm room. :-\

    Alakaboo

  • Why does this remind me of those transparent spheres you put gerbils into, and watch as they run around and bump into everything? Or kinda like a mouse in a wheel, you run, but you don't go anywhere. Just more scenic now ;)
  • When I picture this, I get a vision of a bug in the embedded system, controlling the servos, ripping ones arms and legs from their sockets. Ouch. I think I will let someone else beta-test this contraption.
  • >Someone mentioned the sound being a potential problem for the sphere

    Having looked at the LED topic currently on /. I noticed a poster mentioning sound emitting "LED"s (SEDs?). It seems as if these, as well as multi-colored LEDs, could be arranged in arrays behind a transparent and durable walking surface and used instead of the proposed sound and projection systems.

    With thousands of sound emmiting diodes encircling the user, audio effects could be precisely positioned. I assume a transparent plexiglass would be appropriate for the walking surface, provided small holes were present to allow both sound and air in.

    Obviously the cost of these LEDs and SEDs are prohibitive at the current time, but as production goes up to meet the demand, this will most likely not be true for long. Another potential problem is sending power and information to the LEDs and SEDs on the moving sphere. Perhaps it could be used on a stationary sphere or dome encompassing the transparent movement sphere.

    I've posted another response inquiring whether using optical motion tracking sensors such as those found in MS Optical Mice and Logitec Trackballs could be used to make this cheaper and less complex. That in addition to the space savings of removing the need for projectors or sound equipment could make the system much more space friendly.

    Perhaps in the near future such a system will replace our TVs, Phones, and already scarce social lives.

    Feedback appreciated.

    -Gary

    "sigs cause cancer"
  • Now I stop and wonder, this is of course a step closer to a complete VR-world, but how would one fix to have a second person there. This technique seems to me to be limitated to only one person, unless of course there is a second sphere somewhere, either in same room or in a different room. Which brings us to the next problem, if in the same room you can bump into each other but are still quite far from each other. At least I see that sphere as at least the size of the person, in my case that would be 6'8'' in the case that you have a 2'4'' person(which is unlikely but still) you would have two spheres of a total of 10' that means there is a distance of 5' and still you bump into each other. On the other hand in two different rooms you have the following problem, how can you bump into each other, or better said can you bump into each other

    In my opinion it is a good step into developing a new VR-Experience but it is still just as the cave limited, just in a different way

    Grootvoet
    -= Free your mind and your Ass will follow,
  • This is a great idea. However, walking inside a sphere will give the same type of feeling. I want a flat surface to walk and run on, not feel like a hamster in habitrail. BMaximus
  • They also used that sphere as potential method of transport back in the seventies: A way for people to cross rivers...

    Virtual reality is cool.

    But have you noticed how the "real" world is increasingly mimicing the electronic?

  • I have to agree with the original post... I could just see somebody trying to stop from a dead run, thereby whirling upside down, landing on top of their head, which would make that unlucky person likely the first virtual fatality.
    According to the developers, one serious issue needing consideration would be construction of a hatch of some kind which would be openable from both inside and out, and I kind of have to wonder whether the disorientation which would occur when the switch is turned off wouldn't be kind of overwhelming. Still, I look forward to jumping into one at the first opportunity!
  • ... do you breathe in that thing ? After two hours of virtual walking though virtual beaches filled with virtual gorgeous women there will be no breathable oxygen left in the bubble.

    And wouldn't the sound be atenuated by the sphere's walls ? (they have to be preety thick to suport a human without bending/breaking)

    And the thing looks preety exprensive. I'll stick to a cheaper Actual Reality [slashdot.org] Sphere.

    --
  • You know, they had better be careful with these. A friend of mine was running around in one the first day he got his and he ended up getting stuck in the corner behind the ottomon for about three hours, before his parents found him and let him out.

    He hasn't been the same since, though...

  • I think that anyone who has had even a rudimentary training in VR systems has probably considered creating a sphere. One of the bigger problems with a spherical "CAVE" system is that, until you get to a fairly huge size, you end up with disorientation and balance problems. Some of these are compounded by the inertia of the sphere, but most of the problem is that we expect to walk on relatively level surfaces. So, unless the simulations which you are walking through are all up-hill then the tactile sensations of walking verses what you are seeing are going to be out of sync.

    If I recall my University experiments on this, I believe that our group determined that 15m diam sphere would begin to have a level enough surface. A 3.5m diam sphere would be claustrophobic and you would have to be relatively short not to have head space issues, or just not move around very quickly. What we really concluded was that a better system would be to have a deformable sphere, such that the walls of the sphere were not ridged and could be manipulated to create a flat walking surface, or by extension, an inclided surface as well. How that would be accomplished is left as an exercise of the reader.

  • VR by Habitrail (Score:3)

    by Chairboy ( 88841 ) on Monday October 23, 2000 @11:11PM (#681244) Homepage
    I see a perfect marketing opportunity. If these people are willing to brand their product in conjunction with a well known leader in modular livingspaces, they could profit immensely.

    I speak, of course of:

    VR by Habitrail!

    Think about it: The ultimate geek houses with modular hallways, ladders, and function specific rooms. Oh, and excercise wheels....
  • I'm thinking more of a snowboarder. No, the boots shouldn't actually lift the person, just prevent him from falling. IE, if the person leaned forward far enough, the boots would reach their maximum tilt and go no further. I don't think the boots should ever attempt to "throw" the user forward. Then again, the boots are just one part and I think if you really were to build a simulator with such a design, you'd add a simple harness or program the simulator to halt if the person tilted forward and couldn't right himself.

    - JoeShmoe

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -
  • Well, maybe they intend to interleave stereoptic images in the projections, with the occupant wearing a set of radio controlled flicker glasses. That's how the CAVE systems work. Ok sure, you're back to head mounted hardware. But it will fix the parallax errors.

  • Finally... computer games as exercise (Score:5)

    by PylonHead ( 61401 ) on Monday October 23, 2000 @11:13PM (#681247) Homepage Journal
    Instead of getting fat at my computer while playing Quake III, I could be getting into shape.

    Body by Carmack!
  • Well, if it's about the same inertia as you own body, it might actually work. You have to stop your own forward motion, too, when stopping walking. I'm not sure how big this sphere is supposed to be, however, and since all its mass will be on the outer radius, its inertia will be quite high, even if it's light-weight.

    Another problem might be that the ground will feel unstable, and you might start swaying and even fall. The ground will shift slightly. I, too, will have to try for myself ;)
  • Boots that have a two poles attached to the them via free-motion ball-and-socket joints. One pole is attached to the tip of boot, the other attached to the heel.

    Servos that can track and tilt the pole apply enough resistance to keep the boots level and counter the weight of the wearer.

    As the person moves, pressure sensors inside the boot read the direction and strength of the force, and the servos compensate accordingly.

    For example. When flat, the servos provide enough force to simulate the ground plane. When the person lifts his or her foot, pressure sensors on the top of the boot register this force, and the servos release grip on the poles to allow the boot to move up. When the person lowers his or her foot, sensors on the bottom of the boot register this force, and the servos remain flexible until the software detects that the user's foot has hit the ground plane or an object, at which point they clamp down on the pole.

    Using this system, it would be possible to simulate walking, running, jumping, climbing, kicking, even fighting.

    Combine this with a similar setup for the hands (using gloves) and the complete immersive 3D holodeck-type enviroment can be simulated.

    So, does anything like this exist, and is there even a name for this?

    - JoeShmoe

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -


  • Isn't that an oxymoron?
  • This, to all intents and purposes, looks like a scaled up version of my hamster's exercise wheel for people. Does this mean that we'll be able to get people as pets, shove them in one of these contraptions and then get our kicks as the person runs around responding to arbitrary stimuli.

    Would be much more fun than my hamster
  • one would imagine that if we ever get a product like this at a consumer price point (i.e., less than $1k US), that games would be created to take advantage of them.

    just like quake lets you run around at 70 kph and carry 30 tons of ammo, the physics added to games wouldn't become more realistic, but less.

    OTOH, porn could be a lot more life-like, ya know?
  • There are way too many problems with this ball. First, how do you simulate flat surfaces when you are moving freely in a ball like that? Wouldn't you essentially always feel the curves of the inside of the ball? You would always feel like you are running up hill and on a smooth surface. In my opinion, feeling is just as important as what you see when it comes to virtual reality. Second, is the problem I see with the possible hatch. It would have to be made out of extra thick glass and an extra strong latch. Mainly because of the pressure of the person, if the person were to step on it. If my engineer's brain serves me, stress would effect the arc of the ball much greater from the inside then if the pressure was from the outside. Plus the many previously stated problems with the sphere, by other /.-ers.

    -

  • The problem is there is no depth perception. I don't even know if it tracks where your head is to generate the right viewpoint. What it needs is LCD shutter glasses and synchronised interleaved projection of left and right eye view.

  • Nuts - Missed the Patent Competition (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I already have my own (!) - A bit larger that their model (About 6400 km radius - with a whole environment that I can go out and explore, they've even made it interactive, and got the whole sex thing working ;) You can try it if you mail me a dollar ;)
  • Exactly. If your weight is about 150 lbs, and the ball is 50 lbs, the inertia of the ball is only a lag factor of 25%. Even more, you can digitally control the changes in speed of the ball and counter balance from that proportion with hydrolics pumps. I think the idea is genial, but you need a pretty big ball to not walk on a curve.
  • > Servos that can track and tilt the pole apply
    > enough resistance to keep the boots level and
    > counter the weight of the wearer.

    Yes, it's called a human-wishbone machine. One programming mistake and it will rip you in half - right up the middle.

    Any servo that is capable of solidly supporting my weight while jogging or kicking, would also be able to do damage ratable at PG-13.

  • Inertia may be somewhat irrelevant. The sphere
    has an inertial lag reacting to your movements.
    In natural conditions, your body also has such a
    lag. However, the sphere's "visual" position
    would be relative to the user's position, and
    could easily compute a stopping distance for the
    user. If anything will be a problem, it will be
    the lack of force which the user has to apply
    with his or her legs to stop. And as someone
    pointed out below, this could be counteracted
    by using the sphere's inertia to provide a force
    against the user, more closely simulating the
    real inertial effects of someone walking around
    on the surface of the planet.
  • Now all you've got to do is emulate sitting/leaning on this virtual wall, rather than sitting/leaning through it.

    And bumping into it.

    Apart from that..

    ~matt~
    0
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    ><>
  • Some type of sensors will be needed for the case of coming to a sudden stop. In reality, when a person is running, and they try to stop quickly, they are forced to brake their movement due to the fact that momentum will keep them going if they don't. It doesn't take much, but nobody can come to a sudden stop. However, in the ball, nobody would actually be moving, the ball would. So if someone suddenly stops, which WOULD be possible since you're not really moving, the ball would keep going, UNLESS it was somehow able to sense that the person had stopped running and brake the movement. This MIGHT not be too difficult. As the person moves around in the ball, they will never move more than a few degrees away from the center of the berings. Anytime they try to, the ball will simply roll to compensate, simulating movement. If someone suddenly stops, they will move beyond that few degree margin and the ball, sensing a force centered on a spot that is too far from the center of the berings will engage brakes to slow the ball down and readjust it. There will probably be a few balancing issues to work out, but no more than someone would have in real life after a few beers. :)

    -Restil
  • Yes, the inertia of the ball probably causes some lag in changing directions, etc. BUT, it might be worth noting how few people can turn on a dime when running at full speed in real life. The ultimate VR system *should* emulate this effect, not just feel like Q3 Arena on a big screen.
  • damn, a friend of mine and I just thought of maing something like this two weeks ago! I hope they didn't patent it...
  • I think you are mistaken. The majority of the support would be provided by a clamp type system that would prevent the pole from moving up or down.

    If the person was registered as being on the ground, then the servo would be clamp down on the pole to prevent it from feeding downward. If the person was stuck in tar, the servo would clamp down to prevent (or make it harder) it from feeding upward. So it is rather passive.

    What you are talking about would only be necessary if you wanted to simulate the type of enviroment where the ground could produce a force on the user, say if they stepped on a landmine or whatever. Yeah, that would be dangerous but I don't think the system I was thinking about would be. The only real danger is that a programming error causes the clamp to release completely, but if the user was supported in a safety harness this would be easily avoidable.

    - JoeShmoe

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  • I hate VR because in normal life you don't turn your head around to see something. I am not a touch typist, so I watch my fingers doing the typing to make sure I don't make any mistakes. Keeping my head in the same position, I look up at the monitor to double-check my typing. You can't view things like that with VR

    What I would like to see (maybe there is already) is VR that tracks your eye movement or something also.

  • True, but come on. We're not just talking quality here, but quantity. Sure, the general quality of the forces may be the same as the real world, but the actualy numbers are gonna be really different. I think this thing's only hope is in the adaptability of the human balance mechanism. There's no way this thing can perfectly emulate reality without being a massless sphere: something that can accelerate at infinity. That's a fact.
  • Well imagine this, a device that is basically a spool of wire with a spring to automatically coil the wire if no force is applied (like a seatbelt) and a clamp to prevent the wire from moving.

    Mount this spool device on an another device that would be able to move along horizontal/vertical tracks in the wall. Now connect several of these devices to the user at key joints.

    If user wanted to feel a table, the clamps for that arm would release and he would be allowed to move his hand and arm downward until the software detected that he had come in contact with the table, at which point the clamps would activate and the user wouldn't be able to move his hand downward any further.

    The advantage to this system is if the user crossed his arms or turned his body or bent over or any other complex action, the servos on the wall could unwind themselves or position themselves in such a way that they can provide feedback without getting wires crossed. If someone put this hands over his head and then crossed them, the servos for the right hand could switch places with the servos for the left hand and still provide control.

    This type of system would also work, I think, as equally well as the boots with poles and might be more immersive to boot.

    - JoeShmoe

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  • I don't think it works that way. True, your body does have inertia, and you ARE used to the forces that come from that. But you can't just match the inertia of the surface you're walking on. Think of this: if you stand on solid ground and lean over, you fall with a characteristic equation of motion. In this thing, if you go off balace, you fall one way, the sphere rolls the other way. You have a different equation of motion, it won't FEEL quite right. Another example would be straffing (to appeal to the quake fans) rapidly changing direction from left to right would feel very strange, like the ground was moving under you (which it is). There's no way around that.

  • Old tech, but interesting... (Score:3)

    by cr0sh ( 43134 ) on Tuesday October 24, 2000 @10:19AM (#681268) Homepage
    As noted before, this is an old idea - but one that is interesting, and of course, still in development.

    Another individual noted that the military was developing an omnidirectional treadmill - this is true. It is part of the dismounted soldier project. Here [navy.mil] is a link. Look around his site, under research and publications - you'll find it as a PDF file.

    Basically, the treadmill can be thought of as two perpendicularly overlapping treadmills, the belts of which are composed of longitudinal "rows" of rollers along the length of each belt. Thus, when the user is walking in the center of the overlap, the motion vector is translated into X and Y motion, one axis for each belt (it is tough to explain, but once you see the thing, you will smack your head). It works real similarly to a holonomic drive robot, except in reverse. Also, various "terrain" can be simulated by tilting the platform, as well as controlling the belts with active braking/acceleration.

    There is also a Japanese "toroidal" omni treadmill, but it is VERY hard to understand (I may have a link to it on my site).

    Personally, I don't think any of these devices will see much entertainment or personal use in the future, just because of the scale of the devices, the complexity, and the cost of materials that go into them.

    I personally advocate HMD's with tracking devices, because it allows for the most interaction with the virtual environment (ie, you can explore and look around the world easily, and manipulate and examine objects as well).

    With that said, though, I think that this [flogiston.com] guy is onto something, and may make inbounds to the commercial and personal arenas before anyone...

    I support the EFF [eff.org] - do you?
  • [quote]But wouldn't the sphere's inertia cause a noticable lag when you start or stop walking, or when you change direction? [unquote] Although it's a bit different, your body 'suffers' from inertia too ofcourse, causing a lag, when starting to move, etc. Although stopping this thing will probably be a bit different from stopping yourself when walking, my guess is that you can adapt your sense of equilibrum pretty quickly.
  • What if the sphere were light weight? Or if they could match the weight of the sphere to the weight of the occupant?

  • You can't expect to stay upright in this rig without moving your head. Does the system cater for the motion induced parallax as you move your head? It's not as big an issue on flight simulators I believe, because things are generally far away, but moving around a room would likely make you feel ill because what you see and what your brain expects don't match up.

    The engineering is impressive nevertheless, and any theme park application would likely be improved by induced nausea.

  • I thought the first virtual fatality was that guy who had a heart attack from playing Berzerk?

    STOP THE HUMANOID STOP THE INTRUDER!

  • Oh? (Score:2)

    by mindstrm ( 20013 )
    What work did Tesla pass off as his own, hmm?
  • This sphere will certainly work well for navigation in large, open virtual worlds and I would love to try it out.

    Now what happens when the user runs into a wall and the VR renderer supposedly stops moving his avatar? The "correct" thing would be for the sphere to stop rotating in that direction, which would require some active external control of its movements. It is a difficult problem, considering the size of the installation, and it would be interesting to know whether they plan to do any research on that in the future.
  • Well, if you are drunk all bets are off. If you lose your balance otherwise, your body automatically reacts by taking a step in the direction of the imbalance. So if someone leaned back too far, all that would happen is they would momentarily lose their balance, take a step back and correct it. As long as the servos respect the ground plane there is really no danger.

    Now, in an extreme situation where say the user trips and falls into a horizontal position. The boots would probably lock up at their maximum pitch and as long as there is proper ankle support (boots would be necessary for this) its enough to support one's weight.

    In an ideal situation, there would be additional servos that control wires leading to a standard special effects harness (a belt with two loops on either side). It could be possible to use these keep the user upright at all times while still allowing freedom of motion.

    And with crossing legs, the only motion that would be a problem would be where one foot was passing over another foot. As long as you were to move your foot around in front of the other, I should think it possible to cross them at least in a standing position. Simulating crossed legs in a sitting position is probably not high on the list of 3D simulation goals.

    - JoeShmoe

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  • I guarantee you: Somewhere, right now, someone is trying to figure out to have sex using this device. You laugh now, but I know how human mind works...

    ^_^
    ---
  • Speaking of which, check out CmdrTaco's Hamster Havoc [cmdrtaco.net] with just what you describe.
  • Ahoi,
    I just want to point out, that a similar System, called SPIN (spherical projection interface) was presented at this year's Ars Electronica Festival in Linz, Austria.
    The Device, created by Yuri(RR [www.yuri.at] and Time's Up [timesup.org] is already up and running, and uses additional bio-feedback to control the VR environment. You can see the project description including a cool video at http://www.yuri.at/spin/ [www.yuri.at]

    regards,
    Martin

  • How the heck do you breathe in that thing ? After two hours of virtual walking though virtual beaches filled with virtual gorgeous women there will be no breathable oxygen left in the bubble.

    Breathe? Who cares about air anyway? How the heck can you clean this thing after spending quality time with a bunch of gorgeous virtual ..(enter type of preferred sexual partner here).. beings?

  • I read it the same way you did. I think that a harness of some kind would be necessary to keep you from shattering both your knees.
    The foot supports would be underneath you and would allow the environment to be very immersive. The hand "poles" would not only make you look and feel like a muppet, but would probably limit your range of motion considerably.
    Cool idea, though.

    -B

  • There are actually several VR devices that permit locomotion in Virtual Environments. The most basic being a treadmill type device. Military researchers have also developed small "two-way" treadmills that permit locomotion in both longitudinal and lateral directions. The University of Utah developed a locomotion interface called the Treadport that provides longitudinal motion, but also provides haptic (force) feedback to the user. The person walking on the treadmill is attached to a translational robot arm that serves the purpose of pushing and pulling to simulate the force of gravity on sloped surfaces. Inertial forces are also simulated with this device.

    For more info: The Utah Treadport [utah.edu]

  • No.. it wouldn't be possible to stop suddenly, even though you are in the ball.

    THe sensations of motion would be the same.. your feet are moving, and the world is moving beneath you. IN most ways, this will seem very similar to real life.

    If you just 'stop' the ground will fly out behind you, and you will fall falt on your face, just as if you tried it while running down the street.

    It's just that, rather than the inertia being contained in you, it's in the ground beneath you.
  • You mean flat, like the earth?

  • I'm not a number... (Score:4)

    by gad_zuki! ( 70830 ) on Monday October 23, 2000 @11:48PM (#681293)
    I think most of this technology [aol.com] was perfected in the late sixies and made various cameos on the UK TV show The Prisoner. [geocities.com]
  • When I worked in the Reality Centre in the UK I related this idea to one of the visitors around five years ago. Their idea was to walk on top of a sphere as a tracking system and I pointed out that this would be inherently unstable and require motors + a significant underfloor area. I suggested that they needed to be inside a retroprojected sphere but it would be difficult to manufacture and getting in and out would require a door in the spherical screen.

  • Here's some info on the CAVE project at Brown (I believe where it started):
    http://www.cs. bro wn.edu/research/graphics/research/cave/home.html [brown.edu]
    http://www.brown.edu/Administration/George_Street_ Journal/vol23/23GSJ28e.html [brown.edu]

    -Chris

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