Motorola's Getting To Know You 197
LordNimon was the first to write with "ZDNet has an article on how Motorola is demanding all of the private consumer data from each of its dealers, or the dealer will no longer be able to sell Motorola products. The article is unusually thorough for ZDNet. It includes comments from big Motorola customers who consider this data to be confidential and are furious over the plan. It also mentions that Motorola refuses to comment on the privacy aspect of the plan, or even acknowledge that there's anything wrong with it!" A very thorough look at behind-the-scenes marketing forces.
Wow! (Score:1)
I thought it was just a dumb marketing ploy for Motorola technology, but now I know it's an even dumber ploy for Motorola marketing. Well, my answer is the same for both kinds of DNA: it's mine; hands off.
---
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate [ncsu.edu].
Motorola Screwin Up Lately? (Score:2)
Isn't Motorola stuck at half the clock speed of Intel (Mhz is the only thing 'non-geek' people look at when buying a computer, trust me I do it every day)
Isn't Motorola screwed if Apple decides to make OS X Intel Compatable?
Is'nt Motorola on such a roll here? Why would they be so hostile towards themselves by pulling this stunt?
If you have stock in them, perhaps its time to pull out...
The only thing they are still doing ok at is the consumer devices, like cell phones. Perhaps if they keep getting screwed, they'll retract to that core? Any thoughts?
What's the problem? (Score:2)
Re:What's the problem? (Score:4)
Re:What's the problem? (Score:3)
They are using an oligopolistic position to force their customers to comply to unfair terms against their wishes.
That's illegal, that's why it's wrong.
Simply Answer (Score:1)
A couple of thousand dealers doing the same [be generous, share your script kiddie's work] and Motorola will have a completely worthless database.
Illegal in Britain (Score:3)
Where there are at least sensible laws against this kind of thing. Unfortunately in America where your very soul is up for sale on the "free" market, this can and will go ahead in the name of customer demographics and targetted advertising.
This is just another example of how freedom and the free market are totally incompatible. When you have a free market every aspect of your life is for sale, and without your permission or knowledge. And sane policies protecting people are voted down since they would interfere with the holy mission of "wealth creation" that America knows and loves.
Apple and educator's market (Score:2)
Think of all the newfound students they can nail for cell phones...
Whoops! (Score:1)
"I don't want any information relative to anything I do shared with anyone. Our business is our business. I don't want anyone to know what equipment I use, when I use it and how I use it," said Silverman, whose company uses the radios to dispatch trucks.
Re:Simply Answer (Score:1)
There dealers' hands are tied. All you as a customer can do is provide the dealer with fake data. (You did list the local time and temperature as your telephone number, right?)
____________
Re:How common for a USA company... (Score:2)
(sound of flamethrowers being ignited)
Somebody will probably reply with some 'land of the free bla bla bla', look how free those dealers are....
Jeroen
Like a familly (Score:1)
They just want to be closer to their customers, like in the familly. The want to be your good, older brother. Big brother.
Re:How common for a USA company... (Score:2)
Whereas in civilised countries trying to pull this sort of stunt tends to be illegal.
Re:Apple and educator's market (Score:1)
Justin
Re:Simply Answer (Score:2)
Except for the fact that the contract you sign says you will supply real data and you agree to be audited to verify said data. They'd notice the junk data if they use the database (I assume they do) and then they'd go after the source. They'd prove fairly trivially that the huge quantities of fake data were computer created and you'd most likely end up in court being chased for damages.
Neato idea.
I smell a Rat (Score:1)
Secondly, how many people out there give this information to a store when you buy something? I know that I certainly DO NOT - primarily because I don't want my mailbox flooded with junk mail from the store or whoever they sell or have to give their data to.
Anyone who is worried about this as a consumer - you don't have to give your name at any store, and you don't have to fill in your warranty card.....
relative privacy (Score:1)
Wow, Motorola two-way radios support High 128-bit Encryption now?
--
Re:Simply Answer (Score:2)
--
Be closer to the customers, but don't talk to them (Score:1)
Unfortunately, their completely faceless corporate tone and unwilliingness to so much as comment on their new Radius policy totally contradicts the idea of doing right by the customer. I wasn't even able to find a press release on their corporate website [motorola.com].
When will companies realize that if they alienate customers and screw the local businessman across our street, customers will go somewhere else??
Just say Nokia (Score:2)
Guarantees that G4 has no unique serial number? (Score:1)
If this is their enlightened turn-of-the-century conduct, then what is in store for computer users?
Is this DUN number unassailable? Seems like a server loaded either with fake names, or with names of large institutional customers who are already listed in Motorola's database, might be of use..
Oh yeah, Japan does have a privacy law but then again nobody raises a cry when this kind of thing happens..
Your info. (Score:2)
Maybe its time for us to ask personal information of employees at these companies, how would they like to have thier information sold, analyzed, and then to be targeted for solicitation?
Im sure Motorola would find this to be a different story, and would say that dilvulging thier employee's personal information would be a constitutional infringement and would fight it all the way through, but they dont stop to think about how the consumers feel.
They think consumers are just a bunch of mindless animals that need to be organized and cataloged.
Maybe if they had a higher respect for the people that make those companies what they are, they would have a better reputation, not a reputation of law suit happy, information hungry monopolies.
I know that if I find out my personal information was sold without my permition, which probably has already happened, I would fight it up to the courts, and I think its time for consumers to demand their information be kept confidential.
This is getting real sad, from the CueCat propoganda that tracked your scanniong habbits and stored your name and address in an online database that was eventualy hacked, to Motorola demanding this personal information that will most probably be sold to 3rd parties for targeted solicitation. Im really sick of this.
Maybe some day Ill move to a remote island and make my own rules and such.
Systems Administrator
Servu Networks
http://www.servuhome.net
Marketing is evil (Score:4)
Just goes to show you just how evil marketing as an institution is. Marketers don't care about being intrusive, they aren't concerned about privacy or convienience. Their perfect world is one where they can restrain you and force you to listen to their pitch. And they are trying harder and harder to achieve this, because the more foreceful marketing becomes (and it is far more aggressive than it was 10 years ago), the more resistant "consumers" become, and therefore the more foreceful and intrusive the marketers try to be.
One of the biggest problem with company websites, IMO, is that they let the marketers run them. Which is why you have to wade thru useless padlum to get to the product or support info, or driver you are looking for. I see this every day.
If I owned a Motorola product, like a phone or pager, etc, I'd be marching back to the dealer return the product for a refund, and demand that all info recorded by the dealer be returned.
If I were an ethical dealer, I'd find something else to sell. Plenty of other companies make the consumer products Motorola does. If this happens to any significant degree, management will rein in the marketers on this one.
Re:Illegal in Britain (Score:1)
Huh?
So what are you going to do? Shoot anyone who makes a law you don't agree with?
Reseller as the customer? (Score:2)
Would it be possible for the reseller to send in a report to Motorola saying that the reseller themselves are the customer. ("Last month, you sold x units to me, and my contact details are ...").
Or, could the reseller set up a re-reseller that they sell to, and then the re-reseller (which, no doubt, would share the same premises and much of the same staff etc) would then sell to the customer.
Motorola, of course, would not like such a tactic, but what could they legally do about it? They could forbid selling to the re-resellers, but if enough of the resellers go with such a tactic, Motorola would end up putting themselves out of the retail business.
Re:Your info. (Score:1)
Considering I've been online since 1994, I've taken these steps to avoid being bothered by maketers. And until they make it legal for them to break down your door, these measures should be effective...
1. My phone is NEVER on the hook. It's always connected to the `Net, and when it isn't, there is no phone hooked up. When boradband finally makes it out here to the middle of nowhere (East KY), I probably won't even have a phone line. WHy would I want one?
2. I can get away with that because I have a pager, and everyone I know either has `net access and gets ahold of me that way, or uses my pager. I never miss an important call, because anyone important to me knows how to get me when necessary.
3, I usually keep 2 e-mail addresses, one public, one private. The one I disclose gets horribly spammed, but the private one I only give out to people I know.
While it's annoying that my info probably is in the hands of all these marketers, I'm 100% free of them because I simply deny them the ability to call me. There have been times I've accidently left the phone on the hook, and every time it's not 10 minutes before a marketer calls.
What I don't understand is why companies like Motorola think that such tactics will benefit them? Their poducts are bought by geeks and techies, who are very informed on these issues and usually quite pissed off when a company tries crap like this.
Sounds like suicide to me (Score:1)
Motorola looks like the big baddie in this story, but whoever knows the customer intimately and serves him well packs a lot of power too. What we have here may look like one sided bullying, but the distributors are armed for bargaining.
If they feel weak, it means that their knowledge of their market segments and the service they offer is not sufficient to add value, which means that they serve no purpose to manufacturers and they better learn new tricks before everybody realizes that.
Fear of commoditisation ... (Score:2)
LL
Re:Apple and educator's market (Score:2)
I'm not much into corporate tactics or conspiracies, but this really sounds like a foot in the door for other pervasive tactics. Like they are using their small but profitable radio division as a testbed for greater things.
Just think, thousands of Motorola users, all on the go, all of whom can be continually watched with serial numbers and private information data. Think about it.
Vote with your wallet (Score:1)
There are bazillions of companies that make what Motorola makes. Buy their products instead, and make sure you let them know that you chose them BECAUSE of the privacy issue.
Citizens of a free country with a capitalist economy control everything with their wallets, even if they don't realize it. Look at Firestone, they are ruined because they failed to respond to the will of their customers on the SUV tire issue, and now I doubt many dealers can sell Firestone tires at any price, much less what they were being sold at before.
Those who let themselves be led to believe that they are sheep "consumers", not CITIZENS, are the ones the marketers rule.
Vote with your wallet and your feet.
Do you live in the US ? (Score:2)
Then here's the bad news for you:
You're doomed!
Save for very few cases of personal data storage and retrieval (banks, medical, video rental - actually that was mentioned in the article). You have NO privacy rights in the US.
That's NO as in nada, njet zilch, etc. Businesses can do whatever they please with your data. And apparently even extremely sensitive data (medical) is in the process of becoming a public corporate good.
Don't want your financial information shared? Better read this boring letter your bank sends to you. It's intentionally boring so you don't read it to the end. The end says that you have to opt out if you don't want your (financial !) data shared.
It's getting worse. Under "save harbour" (what a laughable joke), US companies have to treat data of their European customers better then the one of their US customers otherwise they lose their rights to transfer data from their EU customers to the US (unfortunately somebody forgot to state how this is enforced).
So, if you live in the US, good luck on your suing spree. The court records might also be used for marketing purposes.
Re:Your info. (Score:1)
The sad part about the email address thing is that if you use web mail services, spam can track you without you even submitting your email address. They can try random email addresses at hotmail, for example, and using web bugs, see who opened the email.
As far as Motorola goes, they could do worse. Simply collecting data that their end-stores already had seems almost an implicit business practice, if it wasn't in their terms already..
__________
Re:Vote with your wallet (Score:1)
Cellphones (where Nokia anyway ate Motorolas lunch) are not the issue, but two way radios.
In a nutshell: The evil M has a 75% market share, next is Ericsson with less the 10 percent.
Essentially, when you're dealing with a (virtually) monopoly you do not have any choice.
Eventually they might lose due to stoopid business tactics. Loyal dealers carrying M products for decades are overrun by a steam roller before they even know what hit them in the meantime.
Free Market: My ass
Ah yes, the guns make me free strawman (Score:1)
Hold on to your guns, people, because when people like flatpack here get into office, you're going to need them.
Yet again, the guns equals freedom argument rears its ugly head, and yet it is still a strawman argument which adds nothing to rational debate by civilised people. Of course the Anonymous Coward here may indeed have his own private army consisting of tanks, ground troops, support services and a well-trained air force, but somehow I doubt it.
Face it gun lovers, your guns are an anachronism and an irrelevancy in the face of the Government you have. If they don't like what you're saying (and I can see why) then all the guns you have won't be able to stop them. So how do your guns make you free?
Perhaps you could engage in some oh-so freedom increasing assassination, picking off political targets you don't like? I mean, there's an obvious way of making people more free isn't there? Nothing makes people feel more free than the constant threat of armed violence, obviously.
You people need to grow up and realise that you don't live in a frontier world any more. The only things that your pointless advocacy of penis-extension weaponry serves is the high rate of violent death in America. America won't be truly free until the last gun nut is forced to give up their toys.
Re:Marketing is evil (Score:2)
Re:Be closer to the customers, but don't talk to t (Score:1)
Well, that would be true if the asked. But they don't, they demand it. "give me you data or you will be out of buisness"
But otherwise i agree fully with you.
Re:Illegal in Britain (Score:1)
p.s Try learning a bit of British geography. Britiam isn't just filled with Englishmen, thinking such just annoys the Welsh, Scots & the North Irish. ---
Upset over nothing... (Score:1)
pssst... hey Carnivore: CHINA! SADDAM! NUCLEAR SECRETS! LEWINSKY!
What about re-selling? (Score:1)
Re:Illegal in Britain (Score:1)
Data Protection Act (UK) (Score:4)
They got pretty well mobbed by a load of "We're free because if everyone didn't want this to happen, then it wouldn't. You just have a repressive government." voices.
Well, a little bit of info.
The Data Protection Act doesn't stop a company from keeping records on you. It doesn't restrict the freedom of a company any way at all.
I should know, as I run a small company, and the Data Protection Act applies to me quite heavily.
Data that I hold must be available for a customer's perusal, should they so wish to see what information I hold about them. They must be told what kind of information I hold about them, and what uses I intend to put it to.
If I abuse the data about them, they have every right to request that they be removed from my database, or I risk being taken to court for abusing their rights to privacy and use of their information.
This, then, is no Governmental heavy handedness. In nearly all cases, the Government can't step in and wield this law and wave it about in your face to stymie a company.
It's about protecting each individual, and maintaining the rights of each person.
The methods mentioned in other threads (move everyone to a different provider) are frought with problems.
I don't know offhand if the radios are compatible across brands.. If they aren't, then there's a significant writeoff from starting from scratch.
If they are, then what about the end users who are comfortable with a brand they know, and feel safe with?
Overcoming this requires a huge section of the population to interrupt their day to day workings, which are more than complex enough, and deal with these new issues too.
If all big providers played this game, then, there would be more decisions to be made than there was time for a small company to consider them properly, thus stymying the company effectively.
I'll happily agree that an awful lot of laws out there are just pure crap. They're there to make lawyers rich, and do stomp all over common sense.
However, please don't knock a common sense law that actually does a lot of good when it appears!
Now, back to work for me after that little rant.
Malk
Re:Simply Answer (Score:1)
They probably thought of this though...
//rdj
Dealing with Junkmail in the UK (Score:3)
Since in the UK the Post Office is obliged to delivery post regardless of the content then the recipient gets a nice big brick and (by the time it gets there) mouldy banana skin, both of which they have the priveledge of paying the huge excess postage for.
If you want you can enclose some helpful detail on why marketing is a Bad Thing.
Anyone have any comments? Its worked for me.
NB: the views of the poster may or may not be applicable in other countries... check with your postage organisation first.
In any case .. I don't advise doing this with items that have your name on them unless you'd like a personal response from the sender.
How to commit business suicide in 3 easy lessons. (Score:1)
Yet more proof that the people at Motorola have completely lost any grounding they had in reality or common sense.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Re:Illegal in Britain (Score:1)
What he was trying to explain is that government intervention is not always a bad thing. Not that it's a solution to every problem. Companies only care about $$$, and will never become a solution to every problem either.
Remember, your freedom ends on the liberty of others. Wanna fire a gun? Sure go ahead, but it's not gonna solve anything. Whoever believes that need to take a real good look at themselves.
- Steeltoe
Re:Illegal in Britain (Score:1)
Its just possible that you could get Motarola on the HRA (Human Rights Act) as this could be considered a privacy violation, but they could argue that your provision of the data in the first place allows them to claim the information.
I am not a lawyer. I detest this kind of crap. But saying its 'against the law in the UK' ought to be backed up with some sort of evidence.
Re:So what's your idea of freedom? (Score:1)
Yes - that lots of people want to own a weapon, but don't actually want to enter into combat.
My guns are to protect me when the government comes to take the last of my freedoms away.
It just amazes me that Americans really think their government will turn into a dictatorship, and will personally come to their citizen's fort^H^H^H^Hhouses to gun them down. I doubt this will ever happen, the government and its corporate cronies already have all the power they need. Have you personally gone out and taken pot-shots at Jack Valenti because the DMCA is oppressing your freedom of speech? How many agents of government have you killed with your freedom-weapon?
Why don't you look at the Balkans for a real dictatorship? Guns didn't work, innocent people got shot. Bombs didn't work (except for generating lots of lovely repair contracts for EU construction megacorps). Sanctions didn't work. But democracy worked. They had an election. The people voted the dictator out, they even outvoted his phony ballot papers and corrupt returning officers.
What is your idea of freedom? A repressive, Orwellian nightmare world of constant surveillance
Echelon, Carnivore. "Pot" and "Kettle" spring to mind.
and no personal rights whatsoever under a ruthless world government?
Hey! We've just got the Bill of Human Rights, we now have the right to sue anyone we want and make lawyers rich, just like the Americans!! Great! Europe is already rapidly heading in this direction, with their "Economic Union" and the "Euro"
No, I don't think the bogeyman word is "Euro" in America. I think it's still "Communism". But as for EU monetary policy, it's simply trying to build a currency and economy that's strong enough to have political clout. A bit like, say, THE ALMIGHTY BUCK. Much of the world hates America, because America thinks it runs the whole damn world, and because of its economic investment almost everywhere, it does! We resent that!
Consider how your government has brainwashed you. Here you are, telling those of us who truly believe in freedom to "give up, go with the flow, lay down your arms."
Tell it to the fucking Irish, whose bombs and killings have failed to divert the political process. We only see people being shot for being Catholic or Protestant, Loyalist or Unionist. We don't see a 'fight for freedom'. We believe in laying down our arms and taking up our pens, taking our voices to Parliament, making OURSELVES count, not our WEAPONS.
Re:I smell a Rat (Score:2)
Sure, if you send it in (and assuming you fill it out honestly). However, in one of those laws that was passed a while back, sending in the card is not required for warranty service. That law would probably never make it today.
...phil
Re:Be closer to the customers, but don't talk to t (Score:1)
Well, that would be true if the asked. But they don't, they demand it. "give me you data or you will be out of buisness"
It would also make sense if they would even comment on it officialy to the press, other then putting their thumb down on their resellers and letting the story leak out that way.
I've grown sick of the world and its people's mindless games
Re: Building relationships (Score:1)
missing the details... (Score:4)
I worked for a motorola two-way dealer once (disclaimer: only for a short time). there are definitely customers who would not want their purchase data shared directly with motorola. for those of you that say that the dealers and customers can just deal with someone else...it's not that easy. you may have hardware from many different companies in your PC, but a two-way radio system with 25,000 units and 40 repeaters and relays *needs* to be consistent; if you need service for a part of that system, you can't *afford* to wait for people from three different companies to show up to fix it and bicker over whose stuff went belly up. (it's bad enough having to deal with the phone company when they're involved.)
add to that, the problem that 's radios and motorola's radios may not work together (RF, yes. Trunking systems? Maybe, but probably not) so you can't just start buying from someone else. it's not like buying a new cell phone, or a new ethernet card.
and if that's the case, and you're a 1,000 unit suburban police department, who needs to talk to the 50,000 unit urban police department radio system (made by motorola), what are you going to buy?
anyway...it's not my field; just wanted to point out that there's a different issue than just what you and I use.
Re:Why don't they just tell them to bugger off? (Score:1)
>market is because of their vastly superior
>products. While Nokia phones are trendy fashion
>objects, anyone who wants a darn good fuctional
>phone gets a StarTac and never looks back.
Ahem, the issue isn't mobile phones but two way radios, an entirely different thing.
By the way, Startac is just too fragile for my taste.
Re:Illegal in Britain (Score:1)
Re:How common for a USA company... (Score:1)
Thus, the necessity to own a gun arises from not living in a civilised place.
Excuse me while I wipe the bullshit off of my shoes.
I've grown sick of the world and its people's mindless games
too bad... (Score:1)
Re:What's the problem? (Score:1)
That's illegal, that's why it's wrong.
Shouldn't that be the other way 'round?
TWW
Re:Motorola money.... (Score:2)
Re:Why don't they just tell them to bugger off? (Score:1)
Now if Erickson was smart they would make sure their phones worked just fine with motorolas and then yell this news reports from the ramparts. Make a motorolasucks.org website (through a 3rd party of course.) Ect. ect ect.
Re:Illegal in Britain (Score:2)
They do it all the time. Whenever I order goods from someone I deliberatly mis-spell or alter my name and/or address in some small way. This allows me to trace where the details were sold from once the company sells the details on.
We do have an opt out clause. I don't use this, instead boycott anyone who sends me junk mail.
Re:Illegal in Britain (Score:1)
Re:Illegal in Britain (Score:1)
Re:Why don't they just tell them to bugger off? (Score:1)
Repeat after me: two-way radios. radios. radios. Where you got the idea that this somehow involves cell phones (beyond the fact that moto is also in that market) is beyond me.
The more in-depth answer is that there are both proprietary radio communications protocols as well as documented standards in both the U.S. and European markets. Standards-conformant moto radios can theoretically be replaced with equivalent Ericsson equipment (although I've never tried in practice). Even the non-documented moto protocols (at least the low-end ones, like the Talkabout radios) could probaby be reverse-engineered for interoperability by an old-school RF hacker in a day or so.
The sad thing is... (Score:1)
Re:Dealing with Junkmail in the UK (Score:1)
This is great! Anyone tried it in the US? I think it's a nice way to get rid of old (non biological) trash. I could send all my non-recycables to them: pizza boxes, empty motor oil cans, soiled rags, etc. You can even put in a thank you note for providing the postage!
Can the return addressed envelope be used in this manner in the US? Any legal issues with this?
US vs. the world (Score:5)
The problem is that it's not just a matter of corporation vs. individual. It's also the govt. vs individual. Individual privacy is against attack from all kinds of organized powerful entities, including BOTH the govt. and the corporation.
For instance, in Australia, mass DNA screening [time.com] of an entire town was carried out to catch a criminal. This was viewed as generally acceptable (there is no bill of rights in australia). On the other hand, when Australian companies gather data, there is widespread media scrutiny and suspicion. In Australia, govt. regulation of public lives is considered acceptable (they have censors to control what people watch or read) but there's a very high level of caution regarding companies.
In the UK, there is generally a much higher rate of govt. intrusion in electronic communication, a level that would be unacceptable in the US. ISPs are also held responsible for content, even in newsgroups, after the Godfrey vs. Demon case. This means more monitoring of content, since the ISP is liable, and in general, a greater intrusion into individual communication.
In the US, govt. intrusion is generally viewed with great suspicion. The one exception is police attacks on certain sections of society (because the anti-crime sentiment is strong, so people are willing to tolerate the cops busting a few doors and shooting a few people if it's to reduce the crime rate). OTOH, corporate abuse of individual lives is considered acceptable, because people have been indoctrinated since birth that if companies do something, they should be allowed to do so since the market will regulate itself. In days past, this meant that US companies could use DDT (now banned), operate nuclear power plants more freely (now regulated), use asbestos (now banned), or sell banned chemicals like DDT to third world countries (still allowed - it's good for exports).
Generally, these things all depend on how much a society permits its individuals to be powerless against the govt. or companies. In the US, it's a difficult proposition, since companies have bought out both major candidates. But there's still a high rate of suspicion of intervention in individual privacy, which results in some degree of regulation. Contrary to what people think, even though corporations influence politicians, the vote still counts (because that's how the prez gets elected, go figure), so they still pay a lot of attention to what the public considers acceptable.
What the public considers acceptable is just a matter of indoctrination, culture, and trends. Guns are acceptable and a hot topic in the US, not even an issue in most of Europe or Australia. Police abuse is common in the US while technically illegal, whereas in EU/aust/NZ, the cops have more powers but the level of abuse is less (except against native tribes).
Communication, well...it's a whole new game, and the rules are being written. Who knows what will happen?
w/m
I work for Motorola in two-way radios... (Score:2)
...although, thankfully, not in marketing. I feel that marketing and possibly corporate have really let the rest of the company down. This is exactly the kind of crap that our internal code of ethics is supposed to catch. Apparently it only applies to engineering, not to marketing, though. I am truly ashamed to be working here today. Although not ashamed enough to be non-anonymous and get fired over it :)
In response to some other comments about Moto's problems with cell phones, PowerPC chips, etc., you have to remember one thing: these are totally separate parts of the company. There really is very little connection between them, other than the way that the two-way radio division props up cellular when their profits plummet.
Re:Fear of commoditisation ... (Score:1)
Oh, but you're on to something with your computer manufacturer idea. Already you're seeing Gateway with their leasing program, having you trade your computer in every 2 years or so.
Sure, but the post office tosses it. (Score:2)
The post office generally just throws things that appear much too heavy in the trash without cost to the company you want to hurt. Too many people have tried that trick before.
You can get a similear effect that will go through if you have lots of papers in there, then it becomes borderline and they are likely to deliver it. Just make sure it looks on the outside like you just had a big letter to send to them.
PS, I'm not sure if you can accually attach a postage paid envelope to something else. Just stuff their envelope.
I'd just ... (Score:1)
Moto Strikes Again... (Score:1)
They have the most draconian dealer agreements in the world. I'm surprised any small dealer will sell their stuff.
It's really too bad they build such great radios, because their business practices suck.
Re:I smell a Rat (Score:1)
Secondly, There is a rat. The article neglects to point out that Motorola does not allow our radio customers to opt-out of the program. In fact, they don't mention the program to our customers, nor do the give us anything (promo material, forms, etc.) to inform our customers about the program or give them a change to say "no Mr. radio dealer, I don't want you to share our information with anyone else".
Re:So what's your idea of freedom? (Score:1)
Won't you need some anti-tank and anti-aircraft defences too? Perhaps a stealth bomber buried in the backyard.
Actually, to be honest, I'd like a gun because I'm a little skinny and get frightened by big, loud agressive males. A gun would really help.
Re:Dealing with Junkmail in the UK (Score:1)
Re:relative privacy (Score:1)
They help (Score:1)
Incidentally this is why people worry about groups who want to ban guns, you and people like are leading yourselves down a road to tyranny.
THE COMPETITION ACT 1998 (Score:1)
While the spreading of personal information in this manner in the UK maybe questionable under The Data Protection act (not sure on that one) or even under the "privacy" element of the newly introduced Human Rights Act; where I really think Motorola would come unstuck in the UK is under The Competition Act 1998.
This law helps to protect businesses from "being the victim of others anti-competative behaviour". It also has TEETH
http://www.oft.gov.uk/html/comp-act/
I also have a vague memory that this law (or one very much like it) falls under the jurisdiction of the European Commission. I believe Motorola's threatened behaviour would also be in breach of the Treatise Of Rome too !!
I'd really like to see them try this stunt over here. They'd get their legal butts kicked!
Macka
Re:Ah yes, the guns make me free strawman (Score:2)
Were the British civilised in the late 1700s? The Union or Confederacy in the US in the late 1800s? The Germans in the 1930s and 40s? Pick a country and you'll likely find an example.
We're all civilised people equally capable of rational debate or viciously and thoughtlessly slaughtering each other. What happened in Germany in the 1930s could well happen in the UK or the US in the 2030s. You'd do well to remember Britain's stunning success engaging in rational debate with Germany in the 1940s.
"You people", as you say, also need to grow up and realize that rational debate is all well and good, but periodically we're called to defend our selves and families by any means available. If you're fortunate enough to live in someplace like the US or the UK, it hasn't happened on a large scale for quite some time, although it happens on an individual basis more frequently. I understand there's a gentleman in jail for life in the UK for shooting a pair of crowbar-wielding intruders in his home. Apparently he should have fended them off with rational debate? If you live in or near the West Bank in Israel, you'd better be prepared to defend yourself and your family with something more than "rational debate" right now.
I'm sorry, but much as I'd like to live in the world you seem to believe you live in, history has shown me that I don't. You may choose to ignore this fact. I can't.
They use it to destroy my company (Score:2)
The competition I speak of is Motorola's largest dealer in the west, they are very friendly with each other. Suddenly that competition wants my area and starts finding out handy facts about who buys what here, what kind of business they are and how much I've sold the equipment for. Things that make me go "hmmmmm".
It begins to stink when the salesman for Motorola's "golden boy" dealership walks into my customers office with a quote for exactly the equipment they use and their quote beats mine by a few dollars right off the bat. That wouldn't be such a suprise on the second or third visit after the competition has built a relationship with the customer and learned a few things, but to have a detailed quote right out of the shoot???
Re:Motorola Screwin Up Lately? (Score:2)
Re:Ah yes, the guns make me free strawman (Score:2)
America won't be truly free until the last gun nut is forced to give up their toys.
LOL. "free". Nice double-speak there... apparently your idea of freedom is similiar to Stalin's?
Too bad England is turning into a bunch of commies like the rest of Europe. And you guys used to be such bastards... whatever happened to the colonial shitheads we once loved
"Free your mind and your ass will follow"
It's *ONLY* Motorola radios! (Score:2)
Re:Ah yes, the guns make me free strawman (Score:2)
The argument that 'you're screwed anyways so why not just give up' doesn't work for me. If you want to take away my freedom, then you're going to have to come to my door and do it. If you come to my door trying to take away my freedom, I'm very likely to shoot you. Also, you people seem to forget that here in America *WE* are the government (by the people, of the people, for the people), although many people would like to shred the document that idea comes from *cough*al gore*cough*. Note that George W. Bush is not my favorite either, due to his lack of any type of environmental policy, but we're going to be out of fossil fuels in 100 yrs. anyhow, so I'm not going to worry to much about that.
Yet again, the guns equals freedom argument rears its ugly head, and yet it is still a strawman argument which adds nothing to rational debate by civilised people.
The world is not civilised, no matter how much you would like it to be. Perhaps here in America we have more civilised people than not, but as a whole the world is not civilised. Why do you think we have terrorists and criminals, and why is crime such a terrible problem worldwide? Why are America's prisons overflowing? I suppose you could try rational debate with a criminal who has just entered your house with every intention to do harm, but I prefer to debate with a gun in these circumstances as without the gun I just can never seem to get the perpetrator's attention.
The only things that your pointless advocacy of penis-extension weaponry serves is the high rate of violent death in America.
No, the high rate of violent death would not change if we did not have guns. Do you think people would stop killing if they didn't have a gun to do so with? No, they would just find a new weapon to kill with, say a knife or an axe. Would you then be crying out for the banishment of all knives from America? I doubt it. Guns do not cause violence to happen, they are the tool of violence. Violent crime in America happens due to this country's complete lack of morals. Note that I'm not saying America needs to become a country of bilbe totin' white suit wearing baptists, I'm saying that we need *some* kind of morals, even if they're as basic as 'work hard in life and try to be somewhat nice to people no matter how much you hate them'. That, I believe, would cut back on many of this country's problems.
You 'anti-gun' people really need to begin debating like you say civilised people should. With the generous helping of personal attacks you lay on every person in this country who believes he should own a gun, it seems as though you are the uncivilised one. I have every right to flame you into oblivion for the way you have insulted me, you have called me a 'gun nut' and derided me calling my guns a 'penis-extension', but I have chosen to debate rationaly with you, like your 'civilised person'. Please afford us, those who believe in their second ammendment rights, the courtesy of holding rational debate.
Re:They use it to destroy my company (Score:2)
I don't believe it. Another Libertarian on slashdot. I figured everyone here was a member of Nader's party (not that I completely disagree with all of Nader's policies).
We are a capitalist society. Deal with it. Government should only do what we as the citizen can't do for ourselves. We should simply vote with our dollars and leave the government out of it.
It's just funny how much people distrust the government all around and yet expect them to do the right thing and in fact trust them to when it comes to something like this. Vote with your wallet and do something for yourself people!
Re:Why don't they just tell them to bugger off? (Score:2)
Now here's a clue, THIS post is off topic and/or a troll. Rate this one as such, not the previous one. And, to make it easier for budding moderators, I'm leaving my post score as +1 so it "sticks out" and BEGS to be moderated down.
Bloody wankers... :-(
Well (Score:2)
2) Vote with your money (GOOD!)
3) Encourage dealers to tell Motorola to fuck off.
Besides. If companies want demographics, they can do it in much nicer ways.
Re:Ah yes, the guns make me free strawman (Score:2)
Ummm, you do have to fight for your freedoms sometimes. To suppose otherwise is to ignore history. How do you think we got rid you bastards?
I don't even own a gun, I don't really like to have them around. But I think taking away citizens rights is never an answer to problems.
As far as the English being commies, I was just exaggerating the general trend of socialist "less freedom = more security" bullshit that has been on the lips of every Politically-Correct indoctrinated university student from here to Perth since Mao wrote his little red book.
I'm not ignorant of politics, history, or geography. I just happen to disagree with you. My use of the terms "Commies" and "Colonial shitheads" was tongue-in-cheek, but I guess it didn't come off that way.
"Free your mind and your ass will follow"
Re:US vs. the world (Score:2)
Some Helpful Suggestions (Score:2)
First I'd like to suggest that some big motorola customers get together and visit an attorney and have them write up a contract. This contract will state that, in return for purchasing products from a Motorola dealer, the dealer agrees to hold the customer's demographic information confidential, and forbid it to be shared with any third party - specifically name Motorola, but also say any third party.
If the dealer won't sign, ask them if they carry any of Motorola's competitors' products, and buy those instead. Alternatively, shop around for Motorola dealers willing to sign.
Rememeber, your information is your information, and while there may be no law to protect you, if the dealer signs such a contract, then you have civil law to protect you.
When such a contract has been drafted, put it on a web page and distribute the URL widely so that all Motorola customers may benefit.
Secondly, keep in mind that Motorola is a huge company. They have interests around the globe. Interested in buying a Mac? Print out the ZDNet article and bring it with you to the Apple dealer. Tell them you want to look inside the case of the Mac you're considering purchasing. Tell them you'd be happy to make the purchase if the PowerPC chip was manufactured by IBM, but you won't consider purchasing a Mac containing a Motorola brand PowerPC - the chip was jointly designed by Apple, IBM and Motorola and is actually manufactured by IBM and Motorola (multiply sourced). Second sourcing means you as a consumer have a choice.
Also look around you and think about what products you use that are made by Motorola. Do you do MacOS, BeOS, or QNX development? How about embedded or game consoles? Perhaps then you use Metrowerks Codewarrior [metrowerks.com] for your development system (compiles for Windows too - I vastly prefer it to Visual C++ or Borland). Metrowerks is now a Motorola subsidiary. If so, drop a line to any contacts you may have at Metrowerks, give the URL to the ZDNet article, and ask them to let the folks they know at Motorola that this practice is unacceptible.
Do you actually design embedded hardware? Consider alternatives to Motorola products - again, IBM has some altnernatives - and let your rep at Motorola know that you're not going to be needing his services anymore - and tell him why.
Some links for you:
- The Electronic Privacy Information Center [epic.org]
- The Center for Democracy and Technology [cdt.org]
- The Electronic Frontier Foundation [eff.org]
- JunkBusters [junkbusters.com]
Tilting at Windmills for a Better Tomorrow.Re:Illegal in Britain (Score:3)
Compatible? Sure. Perfectly compatible is overstating the case.
The tricky things in life aren't right versus wrong, but greater right versus lesser right and wrong versus more grievous wrong.
Once upon a time, you could walk into a book store and make a purchase and be pretty sure of a modicum of privacy. The book might be a smutty book, a politically subversive book, or a smutty and politically subversive book, but unless the clerk had a special reason to remember you and what you bought, you could count on a bit of anonymity. This was a good thing.
On the other hand, when companies track you, they do it to be competitive. Being more competitive, all things being equal, means they are more efficient. This is also a good thing.
So this is a case of good vs. good. Naturally, the people involved on the commerce side believe the good rendered by greater efficiency outweighs the loss of privacy. The aggregate good to them is so palpable, their lack of personal interest in any actual individual so obvious, and the immediate evil done to the consumer is so slight and abstract, that most people on the corporate end would never give it a second thought. They should, though.
I think there are three problems with the position that personal data disclosure in innocuous. The first is that the economic efficiency argument depends on a perfectly informed consumer with leisure to make perfectly rational decisions. However, we live in an age of data saturation, in which the problem with making informed decision is not limited access to data but sifting through too much irrelevant data. At best, in lieu of perfect information, we have a somewhat random sampling of data. In this environment, the marketers want to skew your decision in their favor by biasing the information you receive. In an economically perfect world, advertising and direct marketing would not exist. The argument that the consumer and vendor share an interest in this is pretty questionable.
The second problem is informed consent. Customers often don't know they are giving up economically valuable information when they sign up for a frequent buyer program, send in warranty information, or simply fill out the normal sales forms. Even where they are asked for consent for using the data, or if they are sophisticated enough to know that the information they divulge will be possibly be shared with third parties, they don't necessarily know how it will be used, how extensively it will be shared, and the possible effects of combining it with other bits of information that they may have leaked. On the other hand, the vendors know this quite well. So we have a situation where one party knows exactly what the economic value of the transaction is, and the other is in the dark and possibly may not even know a transaction is taking place. In short, they are pulling this sort of garbage and gettting away with it because people just don't know, and those that do don't know enough.
Third, simple net-present-value type calculations are invalid when applied to personally and societally strategic issues like data privacy. Remember the enterprising (and scurillous) reporter who tried to catch Robert Bork (a supreme court nominee and social critic) by obtaining his video rental history. While all it showed was a penchant for John Wayne, if he had checked out some smutty tapes, it would have done his reputation great damage, even though as a conservative social critic and scholar he may have had non-prurient reasons to do so.
Finally, we must rely upon the government to be reasonable counterweight to corporate interests. At the very least, they should make companies stick to promises of confidentiality and to make this promise binding upon creditors in bankruptcies.
Re:Nice try, but (Score:2)
"Well, if they'd just take then guns away from BOTH sides, then no one could fight."
Brilliant idea. Now how do we do it?
I'm an investigator. I followed a trail there.
Q.Tell me what the trail was.
Motorola, Ethics, and the Ethics Line (Score:2)
"Uncompromising integrity means staying true to what we believe. We adhere to honesty, fairness and "doing the right thing" without compromise, even when circumstances make it difficult.
Constant respect for people means we treat others with dignity, as we would like to be treated ourselves. Constant respect applies to every individual we interact with around the world.
Each of us is expected to demonstrate these key beliefs in our work as Motorolans."
Okay, so we know the big company doesn't even play by their own rules. And while it's not really effecting the those who buy cell phones and cheeze two way radios from Circuit City, it is importent to remember that if you don't nip these problems in the bud they could become your problem.
Alright, so what are we to do? Well, I think it's time to flood some e-mail in the direction of Big M. I susgest you email ethicsline@motorola.com. Be polite, point to the URL if you like, and remind motorola that while there is nothing illegal about these business practices there is also nothing ethical about them. You may also say you fear they strong arm tactics may eventually trickle down to consumer level products. Furthermore, you could say until you see a change you'll be supporting nice socialized EU companies like Nokia.
Re:Reseller as the customer? (Score:2)
Re:They help (Score:3)
Yeah, because they're gonna bomb individual people with a B2? Break into apartments to root people out with Apaches?
Gimme a break, if we learned anything from every war of the past few hundred years it's that having the "superior" army and equipment doesn't guarantee success, and usually leads to overconfidence when faced with a determined opposition capable of hiding in your own midst.
Our fancy bombers didn't do shit against the Vietnamese BECAUSE they didn't depend on infrastructure. We're prepared for a battle against another industrial state, where bombers do a great job of destroying manufacturing capability.
If your enemy is the guy down the street who runs the deli, but also happens to be an agent of the underground, fancy weapons aren't worth jack -- he's gonna jump your ass at the most inopportune moment. see: Vietnam; French Resistance in WW2, et al.
The palestinians don't have bombers, the israelis do: why are they still fighting? According to your logic, the israelis should have won this battle years ago because they have far superior training and equipment. They just happen to be fighting fanatics who are willing to wage a war of attrition with human bodies, if need be: the same thing that happens most any time a population is on the defense...
I'm an investigator. I followed a trail there.
Q.Tell me what the trail was.
Re:Motorola Screwin Up Lately? (Score:2)
Apple has at least been able to keep its loyalists in line with the change in leadership back to Steve Jobs. If they really want to see true growth, they need to lure other people to their platform.
The reason that Linux has been so successful in the area of growth is that it runs well on commodity hardware that you can buy from virtually any hardware vendor. Someone can take a box that they bought because it said "Microsoft" and "Intel" on it, and can conceivably run Linux on it.
If they could do that with Mac OS X, they could get converts. The key is to make it so that its NOT a big deal to move from the "Wintel" hardware to the Apple hardware...make it a "no brainer". Maybe the OS X runs better on Apple hardware, or something like that.
Re:Nice try, but (Score:2)
The point is, and always has been -- if you can't get the guns from EVERYONE at the same time all you're doing is ensuring that the person left with them will win.
I'm an investigator. I followed a trail there.
Q.Tell me what the trail was.
Motorola's getting to KNOW you (Score:2)
----
Re:Ah yes, the guns make me free strawman (Score:2)
No, these are my personal feelings. If I wanted to kill you I would not give up upon finding that I didn't have a gun, I would go find a knife and kill you, or maybe use a brick to knock you unconcious so I'd have an easier time stabbing you. (Not that I'm going to kill you, this is purely hypothetical).
I almost didn't reply to this because you didn't provide me with any facts reputing my statement. I'd be interested in seeing the evidence. I pray the evidence is not a comparison of murder committed with guns vs. murder committed with knives, as in the current state of things it is much cleaner, easier, and more efficient to kill someone with a gun thank a knife.
Re:US vs. the world (Score:2)
Actually due to something called The Electoral College [nara.gov] your vote does not matter. You do not elect the president.
From the FAQ "Your vote helps decide which candidate receives your State's electoral votes. It is possible that an elector could ignore the results of the popular vote, but that occurs very rarely."
Now isn't that just special.
Re:What's the problem? (Score:2)
Letter to ethicsline, above archived on my site (Score:2)
Dear Sir or Madam,
I have archived my previous letter in which I discussed the way I was advising others to avoid Motorola products here:
http://www.goingware.com/mani fes toes/motorola.html [goingware.com]
and will continue to widely inform others of the URL widely until Motorola puts a stop to practices such as this.
Regards,
Michael D. Crawford