Radio Astronomers Win Spectra 63
General_Corto writes: "The BBC is currently running an article about the latest global allocations of EM spectrum for radio astronomy. The entire range from 75GHz to 275Ghz has been given to them alone, which should ensure that all their readings are free from earth-based interference. Apparently, "there is more energy at millimeter and sub-millimeter wavelengths washing through the Universe than there is of light or any other kind of radiation." Hopefully all those little green men out there use cellphones in that frequency range." You may also be interested in the home pages of the International Telecommunications Union and the International Astronomical Union.
The first radio amateurs .. (Score:2)
It could not have been more wrong, and today the radio amateurs are crammed into small segments scattered all over the RF spectrum.
As soon as there is any legitimate need for these frequencies, I am sure that the history repeats.
Not about little green men (Score:3)
Have you read the article? I find nothing indicating that search for extraterrestial life is the intend of keeping those frequencies clear.
It's about radio astronomy. To me, that means exploring the space, the stars, the galaxies, etc.
Some comments indicate that we shouln't explore farther away than our solar system, because we will never go longer anyway... I think you totally miss the point of atronomy. It's not about "preparing a trip to mars", it's rather about exploring the world we live in - find out how things are, how nature works, and so on. The best and most useful results of science are often those of research that didn't have any really practical purpurse, but that is rather based on curiosity.
While the more practical research is about finding "the answers", you could say that real research is about finding the relevant questions to ask.
(I'm not an astronomer - although a Physics minor and Mathematics major.)
Not at these distances. (Score:1)
Re:Christians (Score:1)
given the right conditions .. god becomes redundant
life started on this planet aproximatly 1 and 2 billion years after the conditions became suitable for it to start... life didnt happen overnight..
go read the blind watchmaker...
and anyway.. religion is all about control.. not god.. get people to fear something, and youve got them, thats why the church was in such a position of power for so long.. religion != faith.. you can have faith without the religion.. i belive in god, i dont belive in a religion
dms0
Why Radio astronomers need protected wavelengths (Score:5)
IWARA - I Was A Radio Astronomer!
For all of you unadventurous souls who seem to believe that giving specific wavebands to astronomy is a waste (and yes I am aware that the article merely points out that the current astronomy wavelengths are going to remain protected) I think I ought to explain why radio astronomy can't function without this protection. Here's a little demonstration:
Put your pen on the floor - a bic biro will do. Lift it above your head. You have just used up more energy than the entire collection of radio telescopes on the surface of the earth has ever collected from the sky. The base unit of energy for most radio astronomers is the Jansky - often written Jy - which is equivalent to 10^{-26} W m^{-2}. Most of the radio objects in the sky have intensities of less than 1 Jy. A few reach up into kJy.
Now consider a mobile phone. These stick out a few watts of energy. So they are about 26 orders of magnitude more powerful than the average radio source appears in the sky.
Any terrestrial transmitter dwarfs the emissions we get from the sky by design. For communications, the radio emissions are background noise to be squashed under the signal. If we are to further our understanding of physics, and radio astronomy provides a unique testing crucible to test the theories against, we need protected bandwidth.
Cheers,
Toby Haynes
Re:Wrong, Wrong, Wrong (Score:1)
This is incorrect and a misreading of the BBC article.
Hold the phone.......... (Score:1)
"A small number of astronomers will benefit from this move, at the expense of the rest of the world's population. "
OK, people are hungry because radio astronomers are looking in a certain frequency range. Free the spectrum, feed the world. I see the logic now.
"'It is a win for science'. This is a very naive attitude. It is a win for astronomy, nothing more."
Good one, since astronomy isn't actually a science. Jeez.
Could go on, gotta work.
Effect on Amateur Radio (Score:2)
Scott Wolf
Network Administrator
AGINET
admin@aginet.com [mailto]
Irony (Score:2)
Re:One way glass? (Score:2)
Unless the little green men have a vastly different ecology (not carbon based, don't require oxygen/water, etc. and thus a wildly different atmosphere) it is very likely that they are searching the same frequencies as we are.
That would suck!
Eric
Re:What a waste of bandwidth. (Score:1)
I'm not saying that they are going to build a StarBucks coffee shop right in the middle of 150GHz. This only happens with property. It'll become allocated as needed to whomever will pay for it.
Re:What a waste of bandwidth. (Score:1)
Re:Contact (Score:1)
Boss of nothin. Big deal.
Son, go get daddy's hard plastic eyes.
What a waste of bandwidth. (Score:3)
The BBC article says "It is a win for science". This is a very naive attitude. It is a win for astronomy, nothing more. Surely science would benefit more if governments were to fund their scientists properly - astronomy is just a very small branch of science, and is a branch of science which does little to address the world's problems. This is just a token attempt by the governments of the world to try to show their commitment to science.
Re:Contact (Score:1)
If we can find life somewhere else it may answer many theological and scientific questions. It also puts human kinds aparent "uniqness" into perspective. Just imagine what the worlds reaction would be to the news that life had been discovered outside of our solar system...
Re:Evolution of Life (Score:1)
Launch a thousand small craft with a solar sails(sic) towards the most promising targets
Grand idea, but a solar sail, to be effective, must be made of materials that're currently unavailable or unfeasible to use in large quantities; the solar sails must be extremely light (less mass, and thus less energy required to accelerate them) and strong (otherwise, the light waves/ionic waves will merely distort them). Otherwise, the acceleration gained from them will be less than effective.
No aliens in that band (Score:1)
Re:What a waste of bandwidth. (Score:3)
That being said: yes, I think it's fair and reasonable for astronomers to use bandwidth to learn about our universe, and then tell us about it. Knowledge doesn't just benefit those who are producing it; it benefits everyone who seeks it.
Moreover, if the only thing people cared about was personal convenience, then there's no point in having civilization. Civilization is supposed to remove the necessity of having every single person spending their entire lives in survival, so that people can spend time doing non-essential things. Art, history, literature, music, philosophy, science. Those are the standards against which civilization is measured, not one's ability to hold a phone conversation or check e-mail outdoors. Good grief.
Besides, I don't even see this as impacting wireless telecomm very much. The spectrum is still large, and there is still a great deal of room for technology to improve. Anyway, the telecomm companies are rich. Why don't they buy the bandwidth back from the radio astronomers, in exchange for setting up some radio telescopes on the far side of the Moon? I expect that a hundred billion trillion tons of rock would do a pretty good job of shielding stray radio emissions from the Earth.
Re:No aliens in that band (Score:1)
Wow, that would be one hell of a cable. I'm sure you'd need some serious shielding on it too.
Re:Why? (Score:1)
What of the background radiation in the Universe? Can you find equal fact that points to a god? What about the red shift of light, proven to mean that the Universe is expanding, by Doppler and Hubble?
There is much more evidence of a world without God than there is of one with. It takes cowardice and spite for a religion to strike out against science, but it takes a great deal of refinement for one to embrace it. And that is where hard-core Christianity, such as that seen during the Burning Times, will die the horrible death it deserves.
Furthermore, I find it incredibly sad for Christian fanatics to feign disgust at supposed government interference in their religion. Tell me, has the government prosecuted the Church for contributing to the delinquency of minors when they give alcohol to countless children every Sunday morning? Has the government banned performing one of your rituals, because of religous ignorance? And when have these beliefs, the beliefs you proclaim so arrogantly, been decent? After years of murder, theft, and corruption you have gained the majority. And with this, the fanatical have continued to ply a trade of immorality. Keep your fanatical and suppsedly decent Christian beliefs, for my beliefs were not won with the blood of the innocent.
It isn't all about LGM (Score:4)
Re:What a waste of bandwidth. (Score:1)
And yes, this is a win for science. Otherwise it's just one step down the slippery slope of killing all fundamental research for lack of "practicality". "Hey, why continue to fund X? We should shut them down just like the radio astronomers, they haven't designed us a better toothbrush lately."
No, they didn't get 200 GHz (Score:1)
Re:What a waste of bandwidth. (Score:1)
If it hadn't been for basic research in astronomy, you wouldn't have had a computer to write on. What you are saying is like shutting yourself into a building and think that you are able to do come up with bright ideas without any input from outside. History has shown over and over again, that astronomy is the branch of science that causes the most fundamental changes in our world view.
This article is bogus (Score:3)
Translation: the radio astronomy allocations in the 71-275 GHz band was not diminished. This is a far cry from claiming that over 200 GHz of EHF spectrum (of which there is 270 GHz in total) would be allocated solely to radio astronomy.
Re:Is there no future? (Score:2)
a win? (Score:1)
Wrong, Wrong, Wrong (Score:5)
Radio astronomers have been given some new allocations, but not the entire 71-275 GHz frequency range. Allocating all of that range to radio astronomy would be a disaster for research, experimentation and other users of the RF spectrum.
Re:The first radio amateurs .. (Score:1)
Re:What a waste of bandwidth. (Score:2)
Re:Is there no future? (Score:1)
The best sign that there is intelligent life out there is that none of it has come to contact us
-
Ekapshi
Re:No aliens in that band (Score:1)
Re:Wrong, Wrong, Wrong (Score:2)
At that point, it'll be worth countless billions, and you can bet they'll be trying to shake down the ".rad's" in excahnge for "giving up" their RF turf. This is *very* bad for the future of always-on, always available high-speed wireless networking and it's a horrible deal for everyone but the astronomers. It's not a problem now because those frequencies are not yet commercially viable - but they *will* be.
(I used Motorola's 18 GHz LAN back in the early 90's. Other than sub-optimal wall penetration, these high frequencies work well - and more importantly, there's a *TON* of bandwidth up there, and as Shannon taught us, you can trade bandwidth for power.)
Re:What a waste of bandwidth. (Score:1)
I feel really angry about this. Bandwidth is an already scarce resource, and for them to waste a full 200GHz for this sort of research seems criminal. As the demand for wireless telecommunications for consumer use continues to boom, it seems crazy that they are devoting such a large slice of the spectrum to what will probably be fruitless research. A small number of astronomers will benefit from this move, at the expense of the rest of the world's population. Does this seem fair or reasonable?
The BBC article says "It is a win for science". This is a very naive attitude. It is a win for astronomy, nothing more. Surely science would benefit more if governments were to fund their scientists properly - astronomy is just a very small branch of science, and is a branch of science which does little to address the world's problems. This is just a token attempt by the governments of the world to try to show their commitment to science.
I beg to differ. First, you can't know beforehand whether there is something useful or interesting to be found or not, because you can't know about things that are yet far off in science. Who would have known about semiconductors 150 years ago? Probably quite a few researches that eventually led to them were doomed as useless, simply because the results couldn't be anticipated until much, much later.
Second, I think that this forces the wireless telecommunications industy to seek new methods, therefore opening some new inventions that wouldn't have probably discovered as soon if everything had gone easily for them.
Fruitless Listening... (Score:1)
Re:Evolution of Life- Off topic (Score:1)
A better analogy if you want to use the terms saturated and specific (as specific means more as to whether the species in question is quite generalist in food consumption and ecological niche, or specialist) would be the difference in reproductive strategies among K-selected males and females. Females want to focus their substantial rescource commitment in a very specific, choosy manner, while guys generally want to just get it all out there, as much as possible, as many ways as possible, although both are proactive, I guess. A guy who mates with an undesireable mate has often little to lose in the bargain, as he can mate with many other girls even that same day, but the female in the same situation must spend considerable resources raising a "sub-standard" offspring.
ooky
I want one big nuclear bomb and two, no, THREE little ones. For setting examples. -Keith
No nukes! - me
Re:Cost of RF spectrum. (Score:1)
What is the physical limit? (Score:1)
Re:Evolution of Life- Off topic (Score:1)
Re:Wrong, Wrong, Wrong (Score:1)
And it's fairly clear the moderators didn't bother to look any more closely... *sigh*
Contact (Score:1)
Even when not looking for ET, so what ? I mean some guy finds a planet that is so far away we will never go though. Does it really make a difference to us ? I don't think so and the amount spent on this sort of research is (if you'll excuse the pun) astronomical.
Re:Contact (Score:1)
Re:What a waste of bandwidth. (Score:1)
Now come on, we all know that the moon has a mass of 81.02 billion billion tons. For the magnitudinally challenged, that's 81.02 quintillion tons.
Evolution of Life (Score:4)
Continue to scan the skies with our antennas, but in a universe of so many stars, and so many planets, a proactive solution is the only one that will work.
Re:Why? (Score:1)
One way glass? (Score:4)
Re:Christians (Score:1)
Even if we found an alien race that said they had created us, my first question would be - "Well who created you ?"
No matter what we found it would be impossible to truely discredit religion, no matter what your beliefs are.
I'm not religous, but I don't think that space exploration will ever convince any religion that it is wrong.
Nobody likes to be wrong, least of all religous people.
Re:Contact (Score:3)
I wonder what the point of looking for ET is
Radioastronomy isn't *just* about looking for ET; it's also about looking at the fundamantal structure of matter itself. There are many phenomenons in space (like the supernova) that're either difficult or simply impossible, with today's technology, to recreate. Studying these will give us valuable "basic science" that may, one day, become usable technology.
Re:One way glass? (Score:1)
Re:Is there no future? (Score:2)
Yes, I'd like to see a man on Mars and I'd like to go to the moon, but isn't radio astronomy unnecessary for this "short" distance ?
Re:What a waste of bandwidth. (Score:1)
Interesting. In supporting your views, allocating the spectrum range cost these governments virtually nothing, whereas fuding for building an atom-smasher would cost on the order of millions, at the very least. The first is a very inexpensive show of support, the other can potentially run afoul with the constituents.
However, if this action sets a precedent for funding other realms of research, then it was good for science, nost just for radioastronomy. Our Mileage will vary, of course.
Re:Christians (Score:1)
What would joe "believer" do ? Perhaps his "god" has arived ?
There are quite may sci-fi flicks out there that deal with this topic
Samba Information HQ
Is there no future? (Score:2)
Little green men (Score:1)
Unless they are like us of course, and they have kept those frequencies clear for radio astronomy.
Perhaps we're all listening on the same channels, and nobody's transmitting !!!
Not the point (Score:1)
Good News (Score:3)
Now, it is not protected primarily for SETI. Submm is an extremely important branch of astronomy, and gaining. The page of the largest submm telescope [hawaii.edu] in the world the JCMT is a good place to start if you want to find out more about submm astronomy.
As for SETI funding, there are not huge amounts of resources going into it. There are small amounts of resources. IMHO, that is the way it should be, but piggyback projects should be conducted. Computing is best done through distributed projects, like the SETI@Home [berkeley.edu] project. I have stopped running the client, though, I think they're not managing the project right.
Re:Contact (Score:2)
Good, the idea of some guy in a lab recreating a supernova is not my idea of fun, what they do at CERN [www.cern.ch] is good enough.
Re:Contact (Score:1)
Re:Evolution of Life (Score:1)
regards,
treefrog
Re:Christians (Score:1)
Re:Is there no future? (Score:1)
Wow! I need that sentence in my quotes file, did you come up with it yourself, or did somebody else say it...? Who should I site...?
Re:What a waste of bandwidth. (Score:2)
Is it? I believe the 500-1000 GHz frequency range is still free. So is most of the the 10-10000THz range. and then there's all the 10 Hz and lower frequencies.
Re:Evolution of Life (Score:1)