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Censorship

Adobe Sues MacNN Over Photoshop Article 179

Posted by emmett from the get-out-the-lawsuits dept.
petard writes: "Law.com ran this article on how Adobe is suing MacNN over an article which appeared on AppleInsider with detailed information on and screenshots of Photoshop 6, currently in (non-public) beta. Could this be bad news for other rumor sites, and possibly even sites like Slashdot? Hope MacNN wins ..."
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Adobe Sues MacNN Over Photoshop Article More

Adobe Sues MacNN Over Photoshop Article

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  • Launch on Warning. (Score:5)

    by Wintermancer ( 134128 ) on Tuesday June 13, 2000 @12:18PM (#1004519)
    Wow.

    There must be a medical boneheaded-knee-jerk response test that is a mandatory job requirement in some of the corporate legal departments.

    Instead of viewing it correctly as free publicity, it's automatically classified as a threat.

    Beta-screen leaks to be accepted. It's all calculated into the marketing scheme to grab attention and future {mind, market} share. Suing the companies that publish (as in, freedom of the press, a "Constitutionally-but-still-subject-to-corporate-l egal-nonsense" guaranteed right ), is only biting the hand that feeds you. Cover your the new version release of your primary revenue stream software? I'll have to consult our legal department first....

    Maybe what they should do is what the automotive industry does: disguise the object in question. That's right. Photographs of prototype cars, pre-production models, proof-of-concept cars, etc. are a mainstay of the automotive magazine. The manufacturer's counter to the various "spy" photographs: disguise the vehicles in question.

    I can just see the user interface now:

    Beta Tester: "Where's the zoom button?"

    Quality Assurance Tester: "It's that black button right there."

    BT: "You mean this black button?"

    QAT "No, no, the other black button."

    BT: "Oh, you mean this black button."

    QAT (frustrated tone): "No, that black button."

    BT: "Screw this, the entire user interface is black buttons. Even the workspace is blacked out. Why don't I just turn off the monitor and move my mouse around and make 'ooh, ahh, pretty' sounds?"

    QAT: (under their breath) "I hate this fucking job...."
  • The press is not interested in what it reasonable or considerate. They do not care what benefits the public. They want to get their name on a really good by-line.

    It's pathetic, but it is all too often true.
  • You don't give your secrets to a publisher and expect to not have them published. Period. It would be like Al Gore giving his notes on 1996 fundraising to the Washington Times and saying "don't tell anybody".

    And if somebody else told the publisher? Tough for Adobe. The first amendment is pretty strong.

  • One other thing to note is that anyone with the Pre-release probably had to sign an NDA which would prohibit such articles. If they signed an NDA and proceeded with an article anyway it's their own stupid fault and they should be sued.

    forgey
  • You missed one of the most important quotes in the article:


    Monish Bhatia, the publisher of Washington, D.C.-based Macintosh News Network, said no one sent the publication information about Adobe's Photoshop 6.0 and ImageReady 3.0. "That particular document was accessible in the public domain," Bhatia said.


    If they got their information from public domain documents, what exactly is Adobe suing about??

  • Those pictures were doctored. Look at the serial number: Apple Insider. Anyone who knows about Adobe products knows that you HAVE to put a real serial# there. They covered the real name and serial number to protect the person who showed them the screenshots.
  • You will never see IAAL, at least not from a good one, as they know they could be liable for providing erroneous legal advice.
  • ...check out the page title at AppleInsider [appleinsider.com] today.
  • uh- if feature creep runs out of momentum, then that's a PERFECT TIME to port to other platforms, broaden your market, maybe, uh, HEY ADOBE, HERE'S A FREE CLUE!!! PORT TO LINUX, PORT TO COCOA! MORONS!

    I think that it's totally natural for a product to run out of new features to add. And that's okay if your competitors have also run out of innovations. Sometimes, technology develops to a point where, it's done.
    The software industry usually cancels a product, or wraps it's functionality into another product, at this point, instead of doing what it *should* do - fix the bugs that have lingered since version 1.0, optimize the code so it runs faster. Port to other platforms. All the crap you don't do normally because you're in a race with a competitor to provide the most checkboxes in the product review matrix.

    (something I wish the Backup software industry had a clue about).

    If it ain't broke, fix it 'til it is!

  • Sure, if MacNN was under NDA, then they shouldn't be spreading that information around. But even then, now that I've read the information at MacNN, there's nothing that prevents me from passing it on. Once the information reaches someone who isn't under NDA, it's too late. The secret's out, and Adobe will have to take it out on whomever leaked. They can't just sue the press for publishing something like this if it was given to MacNN as a tip.

  • Whoever broke the beta... yes... *BUT*.... (Score:3)

    by orpheus ( 14534 ) on Tuesday June 13, 2000 @02:15PM (#1004529)
    I absolutely agree with your assessment of the law (the Beta Tester surely broke the license) but with one proviso:

    As much as we may hate the Big Boys, I think it's *very* germaine to find out if AppleInsider knew or suspected that the license was being broken. If not, they are co-conspirators, just like you don't have to pull the trigger to be a part of a murder conspiracy. AppleInsider is hardly a naive innocent - this is their stock in trade.

    Imagine someone slipped your sister a 'date-rape' drug and took various photos without her consent. If they submit those pictures to a porn site, would you argue:

    a) The website didn't know. They are innocent, and can continue to host these photos.

    b) The website didn't know. They are innocent, but should take the photos down.

    c) Holy Haddock! Maybe they didn't they didn't know, but any reasonable person would have asked! I mean there's a naked, unconscious (possibly underage) girl in those pictures. Not asking if it was 'posed' with proper concent obtained is tantamount to "Wanton Disregard" for the law and the rights of others or "Willful Neglect" at the very least. At worst, it's a tissue-thin pretense.

    d) Da Bi-yatch Axt 4 it. And biznesus suk. Fsck 'em all.

    e) Regrettably, there exists no contract between the site and your sister, and the material is 'out in the public now', so the cat's out of the bag. You can prosecute the scumbag with the drug -- if you can find him, but the porn site's actions were perfectly okay, and since there are 1st Amendment (free speech and freedom of the press) issues here, the porn site doesn't even have to help locate the scumbag: he's a "protected source"

    Recall, the issue here is the *pictures*, not anything else the scumbag might have done.
  • No one at MacNN entered into an "agreement". THEY DIDNT SIGN AN NDA. They can't be held liable for a contract they NEVER agreed to. So take your "mob mentality" rubbish someplace and start thinking before you open your mouth.


    --------
  • It's harder to get a slanted review in your favor out of the regular magazines, if you don't protect their monopoly on information by going after the rumor rags who jumped the gun, and scooped the regular press.

    I've been suprised for years that it's taken this long for someone to sue. I know Apple has been pretty tight against the rumor sites for some time now - I suppose nobody's sued because it's so hard to prove violation of NDA.

    If it ain't broke, fix it 'til it is!

  • Re:This only means one thing... (Score:3)

    by rlk ( 1089 ) on Tuesday June 13, 2000 @02:18PM (#1004532)
    Does Gimp support 6Color print processes? Does Gimp even support CMYK conversion (4Color Print)? (?yet?) Until then, whats the point unless you make webpages or backgrounds?

    The Gimp itself doesn't support editing in CMYK. It does, however, support printing in CMYK, and 6 and 7 color printers (CcMmYyK). The development version of the print plugin (which I am project lead for) supports the latest Epson Stylus printers, including the Photo 870 and 1270, and produces print quality comparable to Windows (many people think that in certain ways the print quality is better, although the smoothness still has a ways to go).

    See http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net [sourceforge.net] for more information on this.

  • Re:Similar coverage (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I should check Macslash out. I'm always looking for any good tips on how to tweak the NetBSD I run on my Macintoshes. Right now what I want is to know how to tweak the X server so that it has a virual screen larger than the 512x348. I'm running X on an SE/30, of course. It's a bit cramped sometimes.
  • See my other comment this article, with link to screenshot of imageready 3 reg. screen with appleinsider's name on it. That means somebody filled in all the reg. forms on screen with the name AppleInsider... prolly including the "I will not gab" bit.

  • Re:mirrors? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    The articles appear to be on the site still. Only the links are gone.

    Hint: be imaginative. Note that the recent stories are in the 0006 directory, Adobe-vintage ones are in 0005, and directory listings are permitted on the site.

    Note also that adobe legal can be abbreviated "alegal", and the new product seems to be code-named 'venus in furs', often hyphenated. Most of the articles end with ".shtml".

    Got it now? If you post the actual links, chances are that somebody doing searches will notice, and the articles themselves will disappear...

  • Trade secrets do not lose protection if they are stolen or otherwise illegally obtained.

    But they weren't stolen or illegally obtained if MacNN was given them by someone breaking their NDA. MacNN has no obligation to uphold an agreement between Adobe and a third party. There's nothing illegal about participating in someone else breaking a contract. As long as the leak remains anonymous, Adobe has no legal recourse.


    Of course IANAL.
    Cheers,

    Rick Kirkland
  • Follow this link [appleinsider.com].
  • What if it had been an OSS project that was "not quite ready" and MSN did a report with screen shots? Would the feeling still be "Hope MSN wins?"

    Then no one would care. Open source projects are generally conducted in the open, all the way from version 0.0.1alpha (just take a look at Freshmeat =). Problems with the technology are discussed quite openly, and anyone is welcome to submit suggestions.

    A number of times, it has actually happened that newspaper or some other medium mentioned a bug in an open source project and it was fixed the next day. But it has also happened that J. Random User mentioned a bug in an open source project and it was fixed the next day. With open source, you don't have to be a major media outlet for developers to listen to you.

    Back to your original question, though, it is absolutely true that the law should be upheld. If someone violated their beta testing agreement, they should be responsible for that. Comparing that to MSN and open source is apples and oranges, though.

    Actually, the only time I have seen anyone complain about an MS* report is when they misstate or distort facts about their competition. (Granted, this is pretty much whenever they open their mouth, but still...) There are the random trolls who just yell "LINUX IS GOD, AND TORVALDS IS ITS PROPHET" but most developers are grateful for any pointers or suggestions, no matter what the source.

  • Please see post 18 [slashdot.org] for the answer to this. Of course, that poster was not a lawyer.
  • ok, ill bite the troll.

    alomst anything on screen. film, video, web. and yes, you can do print, just that calibrations more difficult.

    when i use to make my living off print, i would work in RGB and let the printers handle the CMYK. it worked great (and for print formats that take RGB, like fugix which gives nice output). of course, i was carefull about the gamut. (with fugix, this was not a problem, but i only used that sometimes) most of this time i was still using photoshop, and the gamut warning was nice. but my point is that not all print work needs to be done with CMYK, and most of the time, where ever you take the files for printing can do better color seperations than you can. if we could get printer profiles for the gimp then a gamut warning should not be too hard to add.

  • The other possibility is they are suing to generate publicity. I don't pay attention to the rumor factories, so I didn't know a new version was coming out. Now that they have sued, everybody knows about the new version.

    If the screenshots suck, they can claim that the program is in pre-beta and we should not have seen them anyway. Besides, screenshots taken by somebody other than the company PR department will always look a little weird.

  • Re:Here's The Article (Score:4)

    by ObligatoryUserName ( 126027 ) on Tuesday June 13, 2000 @12:24PM (#1004542) Journal
    The internal links don't work anymore. Here's all the pages:
    Page 1 [appleinsider.com]
    Page 2 [appleinsider.com]
    Page 3 [appleinsider.com]
    Page 4 [appleinsider.com]
  • Ah, I see, when you refer to Daikatana it's a valid example, but when I refer to Win95 it's generalizing from a single example. My bad. I cringe before your debating skills.

    Heck, now we're both stating that individual cases can't be used as a blanket solution. I agree with ya there.

    Umm... If there's no *proof* of damage and there's no reason for a reasonable individual to suspect damage, then they can't sue for damages. So yes, if you don't suffer, you can't sue.

    The operative words being 'reasonable' and 'suspect'. I'd file myself under the "reasonable individual" category, and I'd suspect that there's the potential that a company could be damaged by the unauthorized release of company private information..

    It is not *right* to right to file a petty and pointless lawsuit just because copyright law says you can. Seems obvious to me.

    Of course it's obvious to you. It's equally obvious to me that when a company is faced with a situation where a public website posts information that could only have been acquired through a breach of contract or other illegal means, they'd better give pretty big damn about it. If the case seems petty, where does one draw the line between "stuff it's okay to illegally disclose" and "stuff it's not okay to illegally disclose"? Perhaps they should consult the /. community first to see whether the privacy they're trying to protect is silly or piddling?

    Can't see how I'd be irrepably harmed if you copied my 17 Gb archive of lesbian porn. Can't see how I'd be irrepably harmed if you saw a screenshot of my latest dev project either.

    Hee hee...you said "lesbian porn". Heh. HAW HAW HAW! *sniff*

    ...nice dodge, though. You evaded the entire point of the question successfully and gracefully. Kudos.

    Let's try another angle, a tad simpler approach. Assume, for a moment, that you have something of value that you wish to keep private. Now imagine that it gets stolen. Now imagine that I buy said thing from the thief and distribute said thing across the internet for anyone to see, maybe even turning a little profit in the matter. Would you still champion my 'right' to distribute said thing because I wasn't the party that actually committed the violation of contract/law?

    Actually, I just wanted to make it clear that I didn't use a game with *some* resale value as a coaster. And my copy of half-life was pirated too.

    Well then, I tip my hat to your mad pirating skillz. J00 0\/\/N |\/|3. 1 PH33R.

    Yeah, and if you smack yourself in the testicles, and you get past the initial agony, the pain diminishes considerably.

    Hee hee....'testicles'! HAW HAW HAW HAW!

  • I checked out the www.appleinsider.com [appleinsider.com] website and it looks like Micro$oft has done the same thing. The review of Office 2001 and Word 2001 for the Mac has been pulled "By the Demand of Microsoft Corp, Inc."

    These guys just aren't having any luck are they.

  • Okay, let's say that MacNN found the screenshots lying on the sidewalk.

    The fact remains that Adobe did not release this "to the world" and just becasue it was someone else who violated the agreemnet, that does not mean that MacNN is in the right.

    Am I absolved from responsibility if I buy something that I know good and well is stolen. Not in any jursidiction I have ever lived in.

    The bottom line is that emmett likes gossip sites, and does not want Adobe (which automatically has no rights becasue they are a big company) to have any control over there own property.

    Lets shed a slightly different light on this.

    How about if emmett gave a copy of his house key to his girlfriend, who then (against their explicit agreement) gives a copy to his neighbor. The neighbor then procededs to unlock the door to his house, takes a bunch of pictures and puts them on his website.

    And let's say further, that the neighbor gets a really good lawyer, and a judge finds that since he got the key by "legal" means (ie he did not steal it) and he did not enter emmett's house without permission, there was no crime.

    Here is the big question: does emmett have a case in civil court.

    OF COURSE HE DOES. And no one (to speak of) on slashdot would say otherwise. But, since there are big companies keeping secrets, and beloved "individual rights to do whatever the hell we please, no matter who we trample on" belief, everyone signs on with "down with Adobe."

    My final question to you is: did you "start thinking before you open your mouth" when you (in an amazing stroke of intellect) call me a moron, without making even the simplest attpemt to understand my arguement?

    -Peter


    Slashdot cries out for open standards, then breaks them [w3.org].
  • Yes, a picture can be property. But those pictures are works of art, and can take a lot of work to create. If you took your camera to the Ford showroom and took a snapshot of the shinny new car sitting up there on the pedestal, you take nothing away from Ford. You didn't steal anything, you didn't waste their time, nothing. A screenshot can't be property unless it is a work of art that is the result of effort. Probably in this case somebody just clicked a few buttons and then Save As.... You can't take something away from Adobe by doing that.
  • The subject of dispute here, which is decided in the courtroom, is when, exactly, a secret has been given out to the public.

    If MacNN can show that the informant gave info to MacNN, as well as other rumor sites (given the nature of rumor sites, even one would likely do), the court would likely decide that the secret had been 'given out to the public' when MacNN had it.

    Putting something on a web site is an easy way to say something has been given out to the public, but a much smaller segment can be 'the public' as well. For example, if the screen shots had been mailed to an employee at Quark. Poof. No more trade secret, as a competitor would qualify as 'the public'. Does MacInsider qualify? Probably.

    Kevin Fox
  • A couple years ago, my company was doing a beta, and we had a clickwrap NDA agreement where the customer can download the beta software. We had this one tester, down in LA, who downloaded the software, never responded to the questionaires, or calls (we call our beta testers once a week, whether they have feedback or not), or emails, but a week before shipping, I noticed a press release on yahoo.com, this company was announcing software that did everything our software did.

    Our product manager made some threatening phone calls, we called lawyers, and they said that until we can get ahold of their actual product, we couldn't sue. Well, these bozos never did ship anything, it's been two years, and we never heard from them.

    If it ain't broke, fix it 'til it is!


  • ...in Photoshop 5 is accomplished by pressing shift-M now.

    Nice that they allow >99 layers now, but what I'd really like would be the ability to group/hide/move layers within the layers floater.
  • BLAH BLAH BLAH. What a waste of a post. Go back and reread the posts for this story. There are plenty of good ones that explain why a person can't be held responsible for SOMEONE ELSES secret if they never promised to keep it a secret. ...They do a better job than I ever could. And yes, i stand behind my orginal statement, you are a moron, and your response only seals it.


    --------
  • > What if someone else gave me a copy of Emacs without the GPL mentioned anywhere, could I distribute it in any form I wish? No, but you are free to publish screenshots of it and tell everyone how utterly obfuscated it is

    By the way, did macnn give away free copies of Photoshop6 beta?

  • bad day...your flamebait post got to me and I didn't keep my cool. No need to call people names, I know. But you really need to re-think what youre saying, because it doesnt follow law precedent or even *common sense* I tell you a secret and you agree not to tell anyone. Then you break that agreement and tell a 3rd party. Who is responsible? you are for breaking the agreement. Does that 3rd party have to keep quiet? No, they didnt agree to it so they arent liable. If anyone is going to be sued, its you for breaking contract, not the 3rd party.


    --------
  • Let me analyze a few statements here...

    1. If you are a graphic artist, sooner or later some client will send you a disk from another graphic artist with a file done in Illustrator 9 and you may be required to buy or warez version 9 in order to complete his job.

    2. I recommend anyone who is considering buying or upgrading Illustrator to reconsider and buy Canvas instead...

    3. And Corel's Photopaint... is good enough to COMPLETELY REPLACE PHOTOSHOP for much less money.

    You say that if I use Illustrator 8 I will one day need to upgrade to version 9 to accomodate a customer? That is very valid and very true. The part I don't understand is that using Canvas/PhotoPaint will allow me to not have to upgrade to the newer Adobe versions. If there is some new proprietary feature in Illustrator/Photoshop that I need to use and can't be circumvented by saving as an .eps/.tiff/.somethingelse then you can be damn sure some other companies product isn't going to support it either.

    I would still have have to get raped by Adobe for their upgrade and I will have wasted time, money and training on another product as well!

    In the graphic arts industry it is extremely difficult to deviate from the "industry standards" because your service bureau probably doesn't have it/doesn't support it/doesn't have anyone who knows how to use it/doesn't know what it is.

    MacSlash: News for Mac Geeks [macslash.com]

  • I read a version of the article on MacWeek.com. It was a fairly neutral article, but the user comments were mostly negative. Photoshop 6 doesn't seem to have too many new features - but at least they're pushing the layer limit past 99. I hate having to merge layers to keep under that threshold in the latter stages of a project.

    One feature they desperately need is layer groups/folders. You can link layers, etc, but being able to shift groups of them around in the layers palette (not changing the x/y positioning within the document itself though, just the z) would be very handy.

    And also, they need to switch the usage of the M key back to Photoshop 4 style, where it switched between rectangular and circular marquee select modes. In Photoshop 5 it just selects the previously used one, and repeatedly hitting it does SFA (unless it's just my version).
  • ...Then again, web design is also pretty easy on a P-133 running Win95. Oh yeah, Apache 1.3.12 for DOS, there's a program with a giant footprint... could never do the stuff in Windows you can do in Linux, could you?
  • Then it's quite possible that they'll pay the price.

    Whether you agree with it or not, the law is the law.
  • What are you talking about? They claimed it was a trade secret. In general, that means that the stuff in question is not protected by other things. Anyway, screenshots are probably not copyright violations in a review; that's fair use.

    Copyright violation "used for commercial gain" may or may not get into the criminal realm, or the huge damages; it's totally dependant on other context. I doubt a court would award anything of the sort.
  • I don't think that's right. Adobe isn't denying that they're working on Photoshop 6, but they don't want everyone to know how advanced it is right now. After all, if you knew that Photoshop 6 existed and was to be released tommorrow, there probably wouldn't be much incentive to buy Photoshop 5.5, would there?
  • This should not effect sites like Slashdot because normally Slashdot doesn't talk about closed betas, just links to them. Of course, who knows how linking might end up
  • 1953-1954: 230 cid 6-cylinder
    1955-1956: 265 cid V8 (the first small-block)
    1957-1962: 283 cid V8 (the first 1-hp-per-cubic-inch engine)
    1963-1967: 327 cid V8
    1968-2000: 350 cid V8
    1967-1969: 396 cid V8 (the big block)
    1967-1969: 427 cid V8
    1970-1972: 402 cid V8
    1970-1976: 454 cid V8
    1990-199?: 350 cid ZR-1 V8 (this wasn't available in any other GM vehicle).

    There were, of course, variations on carburetion and heads and cams and whatnot...

    --Corey

  • Re:or... (Score:2)

    by ajs ( 35943 )
    I've tried running Adobe PhotoShop under Win95/P133. It hurts. But then, no one does that, so speed really isn't the issue. The big thing is feature set and usability. If you're in the ready-for-print world, you get that from Adobe. If you're in the Web world, you get it from Gimp.

  • They've already removed the links to the articles. Mirrors, anyone?

    Jason

  • Of course, Adobe should also... (Score:3)

    by imagineer_bob ( 163708 ) on Tuesday June 13, 2000 @11:57AM (#1004563) Homepage
    ...go after it's QA folks and UI designers who exist in a culture that loves to trade software and insider secrets. -- ib

    --- Speaking only for myself,

  • Re:Ford vs. Blue Oval Set "Precedence" (sic) (Score:3)

    by orpheus ( 14534 ) on Tuesday June 13, 2000 @03:08PM (#1004565)
    I disagree. There are several significant elements of the Adobe case that differ from the Ford v. Blue Oval case.

    First, Ford's suit involved revelations about a product that was already sold, and had already been widely reviewed elsewhere. The Article quoted, for example, observations by Car and Driver. The documents were used to confirm and elaborate on existing, legal comments. The Apple Insider article was entirely information that could not have been obtained from any legal source.

    Second, there were very germaine issues of public interests in this case, including safety issues, reliability issues, and misrepresentation of the product being sold (e.g. Ford dynamometer tests showed the engine did not develop the horsepower advertised). There is no compelling public interest in the Apple Insider case.

    Thirdly, the Ford suit was directed at preventing publication, not monetary damages, etc. they may well have won a suit on different grounds (and could still bring such a suit). However, there were 'common sense' issues involved in trying to recover damages for revealing your own corporate malfeasance. Adobe would have no problem suing for damages (however difficult to assess) rather than merely 'cease and desist'.

    Fourthly, despite their self-proclaimed 'victory', Blue Oval lost most of the issues in the case, which was only a preliminary injuction. The finding was titled Order Granting in Part and Denying in Part Plaintiff' Motion for Preliminary Iinjunction. There were three major points, and two sub points. They won on the first count, a 'prior restraint' clause, and partly because it was a preliminary injunction and (one suspects) partly because Ford committed some egregious offenses, such as e-mailing the ISP before the petition for the TRO (Technical Restraining Order) was heard, and claiming that the site was in violation of a court order, thereby unlawfully shutting down the site for several days.

    Bottom Line: Blue oval can't use the documents, and copyright/trademark infringement suits may still be brought without prejudice The defendant was even ordered to preserve evidence for such a future suit (See Court findings below.) It hasn't been that long (in court terms) since this verdict, and i haven't checked - a case may have been filed already.

    Make no mistake, I think Ford was wrong, wrong, wrong, to hide this info. but this case may not be the best example to bring to the defense of Apple Insider!

    1) Ford's request for preliminary injunction of Lane's using, copying, or disclosing Ford's internal documents is DENIED, and Ford's request for a preliminary injunction against Lane's use of Ford's trademarks and logo is DENIED WITHOUT PREJUDICE as moot.

    2) The other aspects of Ford's request for a preliminary injunction are GRANTED since Lane stipulated to the entry of a preliminary injunction as follows:

    A. Lane is restrained from destroying, despoiling or electronically deleting or erasing documents in his possession originated by or for Ford Motor Company.

    B. Lane is restrained from (1) committing any acts of infringement of Ford's copyrights, including unpublished works known by Lane to have been prepared by a Ford employee within the scope of his or her employment, or specially ordered or commissioned by Ford, if not an employee; and (2) interfering with Ford's contractual relationship with its employees by soliciting Ford employees to provide Ford trade secrets or other confidential information.

    3) Lane is still obligated to comply with that part of the August 25, 1999 Temporary Restraining Order which required him to file with the Court, and serve upon Ford, within ten days, a sworn statement (1) identifying with particularity all documents within his possession, custody or control which were originated by or for Ford, (2) identifying the source (by name or description) of each document, and (3) providing details as to how Lane acquired each document.

  • IANAL - saving us some time (Score:3)

    by bwalling ( 195998 ) on Tuesday June 13, 2000 @12:27PM (#1004567) Homepage
    We could save ourselves some time by asking the people who are actually lawyers to put IAAL in their posts. That way, everyone else - the majority of posters - could quit putting IANAL in their posts.

    As a side benefit, you could search the page for 'IAAL' and easily identify lawyers in order to flame them.

  • One's word. (Score:5)

    by www.sorehands.com ( 142825 ) on Tuesday June 13, 2000 @12:27PM (#1004568) Homepage
    Most (non-public) beta agreements include prohibitions against disclosure.

    If they violated it, it is actionable.

    The idea behind non-public betas are to allow a company to test the product (w/o getting slammed). It also allows them to get feedback on features, that might or might not be included in the final product. Though as of the last couple of years, the original ideas behind beta have been diluted.

  • You do NOT talk about Beta Club!

    The second rule of Beta Club is...

    You do NOT talk about Photoshop!

    The third and final rule of Beta Club is... If this is your sixth major release of a product, your lawyers must shut the fuck up, because it's not going to be anything really new or amazing, and noone but inbred Mackintosh rejects are going to cream their pants over it.

  • Re:Clarification (Score:4)

    by KFury ( 19522 ) on Tuesday June 13, 2000 @12:32PM (#1004573) Homepage
    "Trade secrets do not lose protection if they are stolen or otherwise illegally obtained."

    Once a trade secret is leaked, it's no longer a trade secret. If someone steals a trade secret, and it's later reclaimed, it's still a trade secret. But the moment they tell the secret to someone who didn't play a part in the theft, the info is no longer a trade secret, and the thief is liable for the damages. tbo's comment is correct if you replace "if they" with "when they".

    In this scenario, the trade secret was leaked when Joe Beta Tester gave the details to MacNN, not later when MacNN posted them to the world.

    And of course, once a trade secret is leaked, it's no longer a trade secret, not having the protections of copyright or patent law.

    The recource of the injured party is to sue the person who leaked the trade secret, the beta tester. Even if MacNN was certain that it was a trade secret, it was no longer a trade secret when it was in their hands.

    True, IANAL, but this info is straight from Pamela Samuelson's course on intellectual property law [berkeley.edu] at UC Berkeley.

    Of course, the situation is entirely different if Adobe can prove that MacNN stole the secrets themselves, i.e. that they swiped a copy from a beta tester without their consent.

    Kevin Fox
  • I think that they should get tossed out because the people have the right to know how a preview release operated.

    Excuse me? People (including Adobe's competitors) have the right to know the details of commercial software that hasn't been publicly released yet? What gives you that idea? They developed it; it's their product. Surely they have the right to keep it to themselves if they want? If they do in fact have some innovative new feature, they don't want their competitors implementing it before they're ready to ship!

    --

  • If Adobe Systems can find the Joe who showed the site the feature list, then Adobe can sue the beta licensee, but not the website.

    That depends on whether they were acting in concert with the beta licensee, or whether they deliberately induced the beta licensee to violate the agreement. If they did that, then they are liable for the original trade secret violation and conspiracy, as well as tortious interference by third party.

    If they acquired the trade secret info innocently, then they are liable for nothing. Still, this is an incredibly bogus comment by Adobe from the source content:

    "Adobe says both the existence of the new versions of its products -- Adobe Photoshop 6.0 and Adobe ImageReady 3.0 -- and their features are trade secrets."

    Now there's a crock! They've just claimed the very existence of Adobe Photoshop 6.0 and Adobe ImageReady 3.0 are trade secrets, in an article where they spill the trade secrets themselves.

    What dipshits. They just destroyed their own trade secret.

  • Removed at 9:17 PM Eastern.... I got part one, tried to go to part 2, and it was replaced with a this file has been removed message... Reloaded part 1 and it was gone too. *sigh*
  • I don't see that macnn necessarily did break the rules of the beta license... was macnn a beta tester, or did a beta tester simply give macnn the info? if so, then it was whoever gave macnn the data that broke the rules, not macnn

  • Re:Whats the point? (Score:3)

    by marmoset ( 3738 ) on Tuesday June 13, 2000 @12:39PM (#1004591) Homepage Journal
    What is gamut? Is that related to gamma?

    Color gamut refers to the range of possible colors available in a given colorspace. There are colors that you can produce using red-green-blue phosphors that cannot be reproduced via cyan-magenta-yellow-black inks on paper (and vice-versa). Photoshop gives you the option of working in various color spaces (RGB, CMYK, HSV, etc.) depending on your eventual output destination. It can optionally warn you, when working in RGB, for example, whether you're using colors that can't be reproduced on paper.

  • Not censorship (Score:4)

    by andy@petdance.com ( 114827 ) <andy@petdance.com> on Tuesday June 13, 2000 @12:39PM (#1004592) Homepage
    Articles like this under the "Censorship" banner on Slashdot really bug me. The issue here isn't censorship or free speech at all. An agreement was made between Adobe and Person X, and Person X violated the terms of the agreement.

    The gov't isn't stepping in. There's no police action. No coercive steps are being taken. Adobe's saying "Don't publish ill-gotten material."

    Save the geek-with-black-tape icon for stories that deserve it.

  • Mirror setup in the event the the links are taken (Score:4)

    by Viruz ( 73343 ) on Tuesday June 13, 2000 @12:42PM (#1004595)
    Here are the Links:

    Page 1 [appleinsider.com]

    Page 2 [appleinsider.com]

    Page 3 [appleinsider.com]

    Page 4 [appleinsider.com]

    And A mirror in the event they are removed Right here [home.com]

    ..........sig...........
  • There is also something which I've heard called the "Osborne Effect" (after the ill-fated lugable PC maker of the late 70s), which says that the more customers here about the next great thing, the less likely people will buy your existing products.

    Of course, this never hurt Microsoft, who was telling anyone who would listen about Windows 2000 way back in 1997.
    --
  • *Ahem*
    From the article:

    Adobe says both the existence of the new versions of its products -- Adobe Photoshop 6.0 and Adobe ImageReady 3.0 -- and their features are trade secrets.

    Emphasis mine.
    --Shoeboy
    (former microserf)
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • Freenet Mirror (Score:4)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 13, 2000 @01:12PM (#1004610)
    If you have access to Freenet [sourceforge.net], check out these nodes:

    /macnn/photoshop/vif-fullscreen-small.jpg
    /macnn/photoshop/vif-dropshaddow-small.gif
    /macnn/photoshop/alegal-venus-in-furs.html
    /macnn/photoshop/alegal-venus-in-furs-part4.html
    /macnn/photoshop/vif-web-photo-small.gif
    /macnn/photoshop/vif-spalsh-small.gif
    /macnn/photoshop/alegal-venus-in-furs-part3.html
    /macnn/photoshop/vif-adobe-online-small.jpg
    /macnn/photoshop/vif-print-options-small.gif
    /macnn/photoshop/alegal-venus-in-furs-part2.html
    /macnn/photoshop/vif-save-small.gif
    /macnn/photoshop/vif-preset-man-small.gif
    /macnn/photoshop/vif-liquify-small.gif
    /macnn/photoshop/alegal-pet-wolverine.html
    /macnn/photoshop/pw-fullscreen-small.jpg
    /macnn/photoshop/pw-animation-small.gif
    /macnn/photoshop/pw-splash-small.gif
  • The GIMP does run under Win32... there are two ports, one native and one that requires an X server. I'm not sure about the status of the X server one, but the native port can be found at http://www.gimp.org/win32. I'm fairly sure there was a Mac. port in progress.. or perhaps when OS X is available it will be easy to port to that? I can't remember as I'm not a Mac person.

  • If hype about Photoshop 6 starts to ramp up six months before the intended start of their PR campaign, they'll have to deal not only with the "Well, I'll just wait for the new version now!" mentality but the "Gosh, it's taking them an awfully long time...I wonder what's wrong!" mentality, as well.

    Yeah, we know how all the pre-launch hype for win95 totally damaged sales and kept it from gaining market share...

    ...what if one of the features released turns out to be poorly received by the community? Even if they scrap the entire feature, they'll still have to deal with the "Well, thank god they at least got rid of that stupid thing!" chatter that goes about. Certainly, it is a far better scenario for Adobe to never have to deal with such criticisms in the first place. That is what could end up costing them money--having to fight negative PR for a product that hasn't even come out of development yet.

    Yeah, fighting the damage caused by the .005% of the buying public that bases it's purchasing decisions on features mentioned in beta reviews on appleinsider (but not actually in the final product) could take billions.

    look at what happened to Romero with Daikatana. The game really is a passable game, in spite of it's faults, but because it has been so closely watched for four years now, it's been branded as the laughingstock of the industry for being far too little, far too late.

    Passable? First (timeframe, era, epoch, whatever) was so sucky that I just quit. I'd have to say that daikatana is a laughingstock because it stinks. I'm now using the cd as a coaster. (It was a burned copy, I didn't pay for the damned thing.)
    Game crashed more than a little as well, and the low quality of ATI drivers for win2k doesn't explain all of that.

    Basically, only companies that *KNOW* that their product sucks will take an action like adobe is taking.

    --Shoeboy
    (former microserf)
  • No. If you just use GPL software without reading the license, then fine. It falls under the same resrictions as any copyrighted work. It would be pretty much the same as using closed source software in the eyes of the law - eg. can't copy it, or distribute it without the copyright holders' consent.

    However, if you do read and agree to the GPL, you are granted ADDITIONAL rights to copy, modify, distribute etc. so long as you in turn make the resulting code free too.

    So, if you break the GPL (eg. re-distributing closed source) without agreeing to the GPL, then you are committing standard copyright infringement. If you break the GPL, after agreeing to the GPL, then you are in breach of contract.

    Credit goes to RMS - it's really a clever system.

  • MIRROR! (Score:2)

    by pen ( 7191 )
    I... uhh... found a mirror. It doesn't feature the ImageReady review, but it has all four parts of the Photoshop review.

    http colon slash slash ps six mirror dot hypermart dot net

    --

  • Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that a gamut is simply a range, or region (since they're usually represented in more than 1 dimension) of colors. In this specific case, various devices are capable of representing different gamuts. There are some colors which are representable in CMYK which simply cannot be described in RGB (negative values for R, G or B channels, for instance), and vice-versa. Thus, if you make an image in RGB mode, and wish to print it on a CMYK device, it may be the case that it contains colors which cannot be represented on the target device. This is when a good imaging package gives you a gamut warning, along the lines of "Warning, the image contains colors which cannot be represented within the gamut of the target device".

    Also, gamut is fun to say. gamut gamut gamut. :)

    -Adam

  • OK, but who is "they"? (Score:3)

    by mcc ( 14761 ) <amcclure@purdue.edu> on Tuesday June 13, 2000 @12:53PM (#1004630) Homepage
    Well.. not neccicarily. I don't know if i agree with you or not because i don't know exactly what you mean.

    The question becomes, _who is "they"?_ OK, so they should be held responsible. But who?

    If someone who has entered into a beta liscence breaks the terms of that liscence, he has broken a contract and therefore the company he broke the contract with has every right to seek appropriate damages. [note that a statement like this does not neccicarily indicate i agree with shrinkwrap EULAs-- after all the way i see it, a beta tester is practically an employee of the company in question]

    But if you ask me, if someone breaks a beta contract by giving out information, and someone else redistributes that information, the redistributor should __NOT__ be legally liable. They should have the basic right to release that information/screenshot, unless like they're violating copyright or something, and copyright does and should make exceptions for people "quoting" for review/journalism purposes.

    I really believe MacNN should __NOT__ be held liable for violating a beta liscence unless they themselves violated the beta liscence. OK, i guess i'm a long-haired anti-IP extremist or something, but i see something inherently wrong with holding someone to the terms of a contract they were not parties to.

    In short, the _person who wrote the article_, since they were the ones who entered and therefore the ones who violated the beta liscence, should be the one held liable, __NOT__ macnn. Macnn should be guiltless here and were if you ask me acting totally within their rights. The illegal act here should be the violation of the liscence, not the article about Photoshop 6.
    Of course were the guy who wrote the article the liable one, i'd probably argue Macnn should pay his legal expenses out of common courtesy and because if they don't they'll never get another beta tester to trust them again, but it's all moot anyway because the whole thing will almost certainly be settled out of court.

    Oh, btw, i thought this quote was funny from the article.
    ""It's rare that type of information is acquired by someone outside the company,"
    MWAHAHAHAA!! Someone find the person who did this quote and introduce him to appleinsider.com, where you see things saying "we had screenshots of clarisworks 7 here, but apple legal made us take them down" on a regular basis.. "rare"? it's unbelievably common.
    [and please do not mention MOSR in this place. MOSR _never_ says _anything_ that turns out to be accurate unless it can be attributed to the Thousand Monkeys With Typewriters Effect.]

    But keep in mind the loophole these people find-- appleinsider almost invariably uses UNPAID, ANONYMOUS sources, therefore meaning that they themselves could not be said to be directly involved in the violation of the liscence; they just have some pictures and they're posting it. THe actual criminal is the source, who is anonymous and therefore never has anything done to them. The anonymous defence doesn't stop people from suing these sites, of course, but it should.

    -mcc-baka
    INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY IS THEFT
  • ImageReady also [appleinsider.com]. Just don't forget to add "alegal-" to the filename of the page you wanna go to.

    -my parents got laid and all i got was this shitty life-
  • Try looking here [appleinsider.com].

  • Re:Protecting a corporation's interest (Score:3)

    by ethereal ( 13958 ) on Tuesday June 13, 2000 @12:56PM (#1004636) Journal
    I haven't signed an NDA, but that does not, by virtue of not signing, give me the right to publish trade secrets, regardless of how they came to me.

    Of course you have that right - this is free speech. Now, if you had a contractual relationship with Adobe and your speech violates the terms of that contract, you may end up in court. But if you were to tell me a trade secret, I'm under no obligation to keep it a secret. It's Adobe's job and your job to keep their secrets secret, not mine.

    The right to publish a work is protected by copyright law, and the right to use a particular technology is protected by patent law. If you want to protect the right to pass on ideas, some sort of contract is needed, and can only be enforced on signatories to the contract. So there's nothing to stop a third party from telling people what Photoshop 6 is like, displaying screenshots, etc.

    The issue is weather ANY information is proprietary.

    The responsibility for keeping proprietary information secret falls on the company, not on the public at large. The government only supports certain kinds of protection for IP - patents, copyrights, and trademarks. If you don't want to register your work under those protections, it's up to you to keep your lips zipped. It's certainly not the fault of the press if one of the people you tell secrets to isn't very trustworthy.

    IANAL, of course.

  • Trade secrets (Score:4)

    by KFury ( 19522 ) on Tuesday June 13, 2000 @12:00PM (#1004642) Homepage
    Somehow I doubt MacNN was a beta seed site for Adobe. If someone else broke their NDA, then Adobe needs to prove that they did it, but having received the information, MacNN was under no obligation to not publish the leak, nor are they obligated to reveal their source.

    If Adobe can determine in another way who violated the NDA, or if MacNN chooses to reveal it (doubtful), then Adobe can sue for damages from breach of contract.

    (IANALY)

    Kevin Fox

  • We need details (Score:4)

    by tbo ( 35008 ) on Tuesday June 13, 2000 @12:02PM (#1004643) Journal
    Unless Bhatia (of MacNN) is telling the truth and he came by the feature guide for PhotoShop 6.0 legally, Adobe is perfectly within their rights to sue the pants off MacNN. It's illegal to publish trade secrets which were illegally obtained (as would be the case if a disgruntled employee or ex-employee emailed them to MacNN).

    OTOH, if Adobe screwed up and had the feature guide publically available on their website or something else equally stupid, MacNN is in the clear.

    That's a very important point, and I imagine the court case will hinge upon that.

  • This only means one thing... (Score:5)

    by MicroBerto ( 91055 ) on Tuesday June 13, 2000 @12:04PM (#1004644)
    I actually read that article when I was extremely bored, and let me tell you why Adobe would sue over this -- because Photoshop 6 is going to be nothing special, and the screenshots basically sucked. Photoshop has reached the end of its innovative time, and that could be seen after Photoshop 4. Photoshop 5 had some great new stuff like the history, but Photoshop 6 does not contain any drastic improvements.

    Adobe would LOVE it if they ran an article on Photoshop 6 if it was very good, but they obviously have as little enthusiasm and confidence in it as I do.

    Although Adobe does have a right to sue - they now MAY lose product sales because of this (no one cares about Photoshop 6 because its nothing new), I think that they should get tossed out because the people have the right to know how a preview release operated.

    Besides, what's the difference between a pre-release review that loses sales and a post-release review that loses sales? Not much. It would happen either time, and the only people that would buy the program on the day of its opening (before the poor reviews would come out) are the ones that would buy it anyway, even after the poor reviews come out.

    On a sidenote - go gimp!

    And another sidenote - this is the most pirated program in the world, EVER. Adobe should be doing other things in the legalroom.
    Thanks if you're still reading :)

    Mike Roberto (roberto@soul.apk.net [mailto]) -GAIM: MicroBerto

  • While I think that Adobe has solid legal ground to sue in a situation such as this (and will probably win), I'm surprised that they would decide to sue. I've always thought that these sort of "sneak peak" reviews, authorized or not, have increased the hype about a product and as such probably helped sales. True, they might think that they are exposing their new features to the competition, but this probably isnt much of a worry in this case, since photoshop dominates the market.

    I'm not saying that rumor sites are right to be doing these, but I guess it surprises me that Adobe takes much issue with it.

    -Kyle

  • Actually, it very much does matter for freedom of press.

    However, IIRC, in the P.A. tapes case, the ruling was such that the publisher (the video-tape distributor) had a very reasonable belief that tapes were authentically owned by the person who sold them. Of course, the person who stole the tapes in the first place is still civilly liable for that.

    This is the key in cases like that - all the publisher has to do is prove that a reasonable person would believe that the source was providing information that wasn't illegally obtained. And the courts have given fairly wide lattitude on this issue (that is, they've erred on the side of the press).

    -Erik

  • #include "ianal.h"

    As I understand things, if Acme Software leaked Adobe trade secrets to MacNN in violation of an NDA, and MacNN published them, both Acme and MacNN are liable. Trade secrets do not lose protection if they are stolen or otherwise illegally obtained.

  • Ford vs. Blue Oval Set Precedence (Score:5)

    by Carnage4Life ( 106069 ) on Tuesday June 13, 2000 @12:08PM (#1004654) Homepage Journal
    I really doubt Adobe will win because this is extremely similar to when Ford Motors sued Blue Oval News [blueovalnews.com] for printing secret car designs on their website. Even though the car designs were secret and probably stolen by an employee who had signed an NDA, the website won.

  • Clearly, then, what happened with Win95 can be expected to hold true for all software, regardless of the possible, hypothetical existence of things referred to in some rogue scientific circles as "other factors".

    Ah, I see, when you refer to Daikatana it's a valid example, but when I refer to Win95 it's generalizing from a single example. My bad. I cringe before your debating skills.

    Does a given individual's opinion that the company probably won't suffer for it somehow invalidate their right to pursue such a matter?

    Umm... If there's no *proof* of damage and there's no reason for a reasonable individual to suspect damage, then they can't sue for damages. So yes, if you don't suffer, you can't sue.

    If I were to distribute the contents of your [hard drive/filing cabinet/tax records/secret video library hidden behind an access panel in your bedroom/something containing sensitive information about yourself] after buying them from an anonymous source (who may or may not have broken into your home to steal the; who am I to care how they got it?), would you consider me absolved of all responsibility? Would you glibly shrug your shoulders and say, "Well hey, I guess it's cool, seeing as you aren't the person who actually violated the law"? Would you still see me as an innocent vessel for the dissemination of information, even though said information was acquired at some point through the violation of a law or legally binding agreement?

    Can't see how I'd be irrepably harmed if you copied my 17 Gb archive of lesbian porn. Can't see how I'd be irrepably harmed if you saw a screenshot of my latest dev project either.

    The question is whether or not Adobe is right to try and protect their own private intellectual property, regardless of how petty or pointless any of us may seem to think said information is.

    Well since you put it that way...
    It is not *right* to right to file a petty and pointless lawsuit just because copyright law says you can. Seems obvious to me.

    (...oh, regarding Daikatana--the very fact that you carefully explained how you pirated the game instead of ever being caught dead paying for it kinda reveals your predisposition towards the game. Had you not already formed such a powerful disgust towards the game even before it came out, you wouldn't be so compelled to disown any constructive association to the game.

    Actually, I just wanted to make it clear that I didn't use a game with *some* resale value as a coaster. And my copy of half-life was pirated too.

    Thing is, if you actually play Daikatana, and get past the first epoch, the game improves considerably.

    Yeah, and if you smack yourself in the testicles, and you get past the initial agony, the pain diminishes considerably.

    --Shoeboy


    (former microserf)

  • Re:This only means one thing... (Score:3)

    by Habanero ( 137835 ) on Tuesday June 13, 2000 @12:57PM (#1004658)

    I actually read that article
    Yeah, I tried to read the article, but the fucking font was invisible. The printer version [law.com] however was readable.

    By the way, the photoshop articles appear to be findable here [appleinsider.com]. Maybe alegal-venus-in-furs-part2 or something? The front page links were removed, but not the articles.

    I wonder if Adobe complained when they previewed acroread [appleinsider.com]?

  • > Photoshop 6 is going to be nothing special, and the screenshots basically sucked.

    I agree.

    Adobe Systems are such ninnies that they are cutting off their nose to spite their face. They should be grateful for a fan site that is even willing to give them free publicity, and I guess they don't remember how to milk that publicity for their own benefit.

    Adobe's cash model has depended on charging customers huge upgrade prices for yearly bigfixes and minor feature updates.

    Over at their website, we see them touting Illustrator 9 as a $149 upgrade, which only features catch-up additions to help them compete with Freehand's, CorelDraw's, etc. feature creep. $149 for a copy of a disk and a book is literally a license to print money.

    If you are a graphic artist, sooner or later some client will send you a disk from another graphic artist with a file done in Illustrator 9 and you may be required to buy or warez version 9 in order to complete his job. What a racket for Adobe!

    They have their huge, unnecessary iceberg of bloated corporate infrastructure to support, and they NEED that $149 to finance all that fat.

    Yet, Warnok and friends have become such greedy sons of bitches that they let Display PostScript DIE over them charging too much money for licenses.

    I have used the FREE beta of Canvas for Linux (deneba.com). I hadn't used Canvas for years, and am surprised how WELL IT WORKS now. It is a great substitute for Illustrator and I recommend anyone who is considering buying or upgrading Illustrator to reconsider and buy Canvas instead (for ANY platform, Windows, Mac or Linux), and let Adobe keep on their precious Illustrator disks and books.

    And Corel's Photopaint for Linux is very, very good now, even though it is just in the Beta 2 cycle. It is good enough to COMPLETELY REPLACE PHOTOSHOP for much less money. And we all know how much Corel needs a few bucks in their coffers right now.

    THen their is Gimp for great web work. Free... No lawsuits!

    So, it's too bad Adobe is tryiung to kill somebody who is just trying to report some news. I hope the site survives, but since they pulled the article (admitting 'guilt' without waiting to talk to a judge) they have already lost the case.

    By the way, how come so few news websites don't know shit about 1st ammendment law? These sites are accorded the same rights as print newspapers, but if they cave in to corporate felchers, they lose those rights by their own hand.

    Whew.... what a rant

  • >An agreement was made between Adobe and Person X,
    >and Person X violated the terms of the agreement.

    Yes, but do we know that Person X has any relationship to MacNN? If he doesn't, they're suing the wrong entity.
  • The word "gamut" has its origins in Medieval music theory... In the Ancient Greek system, the lowest possible pitch is represented by the symbol gamma. Medieval theorists, when devising solfege ("do, a deer," etc.) used the term "ut" instead of do. "gamma ut" was the lowest possible version of "ut" in the current hexachord system, created by placing "ut" at the bottom of the possible range. (it's a really convoluted system) "gamma ut" was eventually contracted to gamut, and used to represent the entirety of the music range, and then went from there. Tinctoris
  • That's not a bad idea... but the big difference is that car companies don't hand out their 'mules' (pre-production prototypes) to regular drivers. I.e. if the car press gets a whiff of how fast the new Corvette goes, or how it feels to drive one, it has to be because GM leaked the info.

    Another fundamental difference of 'hardware' and software engineering: in hardware your components have already been tested to death, you're usually only testing the integration and any new technologies (e.g. how many different engines did the Corvette have in its 50-yr history? 2? 4? 10? how many where also available in other GM cars? every single one).

    OTOH, software has to exhaustively test every thing as much as they can, as so much crap is interdependent and people keep reinventing the wheel over and over again. More new code->bigger QA dept->need for 'public' or NDA-based beta programs.


    engineers never lie; we just approximate the truth.
  • I'd be willing to be that this is a calculated move on the part of Adobe to drum up free publicity for Photoshop 6 at the expense of (or, for the paranoid, in collusion with) MacNN. Sure, it looks bad to us, but don't forget that the general public seems to think that IP laws are cool.

    C'mon -- when the pages are still up at AppleInsider under slightly changed filenames, and someone posts the changed URLs to freaking Slashdot, which is of course a hush-hush underground site that nobody reads (where nobody == MAX_LONG, anyway), can you really believe the official story?

    I've long suspected that "rumor sites" devoted to games and to other commercial, closed source software and hardware are basically paid shills for the industry, but rarely are they as ham-handed as this.


    And yes, I like italics. John Dvorak is my spiritual master.
  • If this news site didn't sign any beta license then they didn't 'break' any 'law'.

    If Adobe Systems can find the Joe who showed the site the feature list, then Adobe can sue the beta licensee, but not the website.

    And the website doesn't have to reveal the source of the feature list. That's the law.

  • Look at this screenshot [macnn.com] from the article - It shows the splash screen of "Pet Wolverine" (Imageready 3.0) with the words "Licensed to: AppleInsider" So someone using the AppleInsider name had to fill out everything required to get their name there, which I suspect includes the whole registration and "I will not relase this info" terms.

  • Are you sure you read it? It wasn't negative... (Score:3)

    by Tumbleweed ( 3706 ) on Tuesday June 13, 2000 @01:44PM (#1004670)
    I just finished reading it, and didn't see anything all that negative about the article at all. In fact, it lists many improvements, although, certainly nothing to warrant a major upgrade in version - more like v5.6, but then again, 5.5 should've been 5.1. Whatever.

    At the end of the article, in fact, it says:

    --- quote ---
    The release appears to be solid, and packs a number of additional refinements that are much to specific to detail in this report.
    --- endquote ---

    Not exactly a negative review, by any stretch of the imagination.

  • premature release...? (Score:4)

    by passion ( 84900 ) on Tuesday June 13, 2000 @12:08PM (#1004672)

    Hope MacNN wins

    yeah, I like MacNN and all the dirt, gossip & rumor pages just as much as the next guy. Unfortunately, it comes down to intellectual property.

    I can see 2 main reasons why Adobe would be pissed:

    1. lets their competitors (OK, so photoshop is unrivaled in the commercial realm, but they want to keep it that way) to see what kinds of innovations they should struggle to get into their product before Adobe releases.
    2. the whole effect that is discussed in a Dilbert comic. By telling the customer that the next version is going to be super-great, you've sold them, and they won't want to buy your current edition and spend more money for the upgrade. This in turn kills your revenue for financing the development of that new version.

    I like hearing new bits and pieces of stuff that's yet to come down the pike, but keep it real folks, and don't turn next year's super-cool stuff into vaporware.

  • Re:This only means one thing... (Score:4)

    by magnetx11 ( 152596 ) on Tuesday June 13, 2000 @12:09PM (#1004674) Homepage
    On a sidenote - go gimp!

    Does Gimp support 6Color print processes? Does Gimp even support CMYK conversion (4Color Print)? (?yet?) Until then, whats the point unless you make webpages or backgrounds?

  • Protecting a corporation's interest (Score:3)

    by Dungeon Dweller ( 134014 ) on Tuesday June 13, 2000 @12:09PM (#1004675)
    Did MacNN sign a non-disclosure agreement(NDA)? If they did, then they are probably in violation. It is one thing to dislike a company for hijacking your software and hardware and using unfair business practices, it is another thing entirely to hate them for trying to protect their product's competitive edge by not telling other companies what features are in it before it even comes out! I know that if I spent 5 years developing a technology, was just putting the final touches on it, waiting to release it, and some spy from a big company, say Microsoft, but I don't care if it was Virginia Systems or my 3rd cousin, took my code, and put it into their product, before mine was released, I would be ultra-pissed. Plus, NDA's are serious business. If you are not going to be a good business partner, you won't continue to be a business partner.

  • Funny you should mention that... (Score:3)

    by The Queen ( 56621 ) on Tuesday June 13, 2000 @12:11PM (#1004678) Homepage
    And another sidenote - this is the most pirated program in the world, EVER. Adobe should be doing other things in the legalroom.
    My former employer bought Photoshop 5 on ebay (I know, I know, DUH) and when we received it, we saw it was very definitely a copy. So he called Adobe and tried to report it. They did nothing. ??? Apparently they're not too worried about piracy, just initial sales, which is what this leak may have hurt.

    The Divine Creatrix in a Mortal Shell that stays Crunchy in Milk
  • I worked for a software company that made consumer type publishing programs and clip art. They were *extremely* tight lipped about anything about upcoming products. It was entirely need-to-know. The people testing the clip art packages wouldn't be told what the final number on the page would be (x thousand images inside!!!). Customer service would be told about it about a day before it hit the shelves. In one case, someone called for tech support on a product and tech support told him they couldn't support it because they hadn't received word that it had been released.

    Now, photoshop isn't in as competetive a market as clip art or Print Shop type programs. It's not like someone is going to be able to take any action based on knowing about Photoshop 6's features a month early. But maybe they can. Their competitors (which would be....ummm... still thinking...) will be able to say "here's where photoshop 6 is weak. Concentrate on making this feature kick ass. Add in this little tweak." They'll have a little extra time to react. And that's why Adobe requires NDAs for beta testers. They can't do much, but they can decide where to concentrate their last minute features effort. They can kill off a feature they are having trouble with if they see that photoshop won't have it either. They can decide what to highlight on the box. They can decide how to market it.

    What, do you think that there are people who sell something that competes with Photoshop isn't just drooling over this article? Jasc Paint Shop Pro will be looking at this. The makers of Debabelizer will be reading this with a magnifying glass.

    Imagine this situation: you're releasing a publishing program soon. Your competitors are as well. You learn through some source like this that the competitor will be including 1200 different greeting card designs. You had planned for 1000 in your product. What do you do? Obviously, you work the designers overtime or you push the date a little bit, because you *can't* release something that's inferior to the competition.

    --Kevin
  • A similar story is running over at MacSlash [macslash.com]. I just discovered the site and it is looking good. Their insights and comments appear quite relevant. Does anyone know much about it? I figure it is like Slashdot for Mac users. Very cool.

  • Note: IANAL, and this information comes from talking with several IP and publishing lawyers. It applies only inside the USA.

    Newspapers (and others) cannot publish anything they receieve. Legally, a publisher is responsible for checking the validity of the source, and cannot hide behind the "oh, well, my such-and-such source said so" shield.

    Publishers (and reporters, too) have the following responsibilities when receiving information from a source:

    1. Is the publisher coercing the source to break a contract/law when revealing the information?
    2. Would a reasonable person know that the information was obtained illegally?
    3. Is the jist of the information substatiated through another source?
    4. By publishing the information, are you maliciously and willfully damaging another entity? As a correlarry, would a reasonable person decide that you released the information without a proper validity check?

    Under number 1 and 2, the publisher is criminally liable - instance number 1 is a felony in most places, 2 is a misdemenor. Essentially, in the first you are actually committing a crime, and the second you are an accessory-after-the-fact.

    Instance 3 and 4 fall into civil areas (as can 1, in addition to criminal), and generally are covered in Libel and Slander laws.

    Trade secrets that are obtained by a third party, who then illegally reveals them to a publisher, which publishes them, are most certainly covered by #2. However, the sticking point is as always the possibility that the publisher can make a case that it reasonably believed that the information was obtained by the third party legally. The previous brouhah here over the MS Kerberos Spec is a good case for the latter - there is a considerable case for the publisher believing that the poster (an AC) could have bypassed the legalities requiring non-disclosure, and thus, could legally post the article.

    Please, folks, two things:

    This isn't about censorship

    Free Speech is not absolute

    -Erik

  • YES, censorship! (Score:3)

    by Millennium ( 2451 ) on Tuesday June 13, 2000 @01:52PM (#1004687)
    The issue here isn't censorship or free speech at all. An agreement was made between Adobe and Person X, and Person X violated the terms of the agreement.

    That's just it. Person X violated the terms of the agreement. Not MacNN, which never signed that agreement. All Adobe has the right to do is ask MacNN to pull the article, and demand that MacNN provide contact information for their source. Then they can sue the source, who's the one that violated the agreements.

    But honestly, I almost wonder if a class-action suit should be brought on the software industry by its users. We buy and pay for their software. They owe us a look into where the products we paid for, and will be paying for again to upgrade, will be going. So what if competitors know what features will be in your software; merely knowing of the existence of a feature doesn't help you in developing a counter-feature of your own. Software will always improve, and as the ones who are paying the software companies' bills we have a right to know what they're doing with our money.
  • > go gimp!
    whats the point unless you make webpages or backgrounds?
    Well damn, there's no one who needs to design art for the Web.... The Gimp is primarily (almost exclusively) a tool for Web design. It supports a dizzying number of useful features for the sophisticated Web designer, and does so in a footprint that won't require that you upgrade your box. And of course, it runs under operating systems that don't fall over and die if you decide to actually run a Web server locally.

    The whole CMYK thing is getting really old. Personally, I can wait until all of the CMYK-related patents expire and the Gimp can take advantage of those technologies. Until then, I can do absolutely everything that I need in the Gimp, and it's developing new features every day that I'm slowly learning to master and utilize. Keep your print technology off my Web.

  • If I don't agree with the GPL, and don't sign anything... I can break the license.
  • A lot of people hear been badmouthing Adobe's motivation in trying to do something about this leak, but the truth is, it costs a company a bunch of money to think up features. Implementing them is often the easier portion of production.

    Is it too much to imagine that enterprising managers at JASC software and Corel and the folks involved in the gimp can extrapolate these features and beat Adobe to market? Photoshop is dramatically more complex than any of these other products, simply by way of their pre-press precision and color modelling. But as most consumers only want web graphic editors, beating Adobe to market with their own refinements is a piece of cake.

    This could be a major hit in the pocketbook, if you can imagine that ceratin features and refinements may sway the purchasing dollars of hundreds, thousands, maybe tens of thousands of people. The managers at Adobe have an obligation to protect that potential revenue for the investors.

    Those of you that can't see this are certainly not cut out to run a corporation. Not yet anyway. maybe after college you can cut your teeth on a small department, but don't run crying to momma when everything falls to crap around you. seen it a million times already (in other managers) and I'm not even 30 yet!!!

    By way of disclaimer, I am not affiliated with Adobe or any other companies in this market, merely a critical, semi-aware observer.



    :)Fudboy

  • WTF??? (Score:5)

    by Shoeboy ( 16224 ) on Tuesday June 13, 2000 @12:14PM (#1004695) Homepage
    Adobe says both the existence of the new versions of its products -- Adobe Photoshop 6.0 and Adobe ImageReady 3.0 -- and their features are trade secrets.

    Really good trade secrets too. Let's see, Adobe has released Photoshops 1-5. They also employ a bunch of programmers. There are two possibilities:
    1) they are working on Photoshop 6.
    2) oh wait, there's only one possibility.
    Real nice secret guys.

    I hear MS is working on a new version of office - oops, now /. is going to be hit with another cease and desist order.

    Adobe requests the court to enjoin Macintosh News Network from soliciting or disclosing Adobe's trade secrets and for recovery of damages which it says "could conservatively amount to tens of millions of dollars."

    I say that's a conservative estimate, nothing pisses of Wall Street more than shipping a new version of a flagship product. I bet their stock tanked after this leak.

    The complaint says, "Adobe will suffer lost sales of products currently on the market.

    Totally believable -- I only buy software if I'm sure that the company has cancelled all future development efforts.

    Hear that? That's the last few shreds of my faith in human intelligence being stripped from me.

    --Shoeboy
    (former microserf)

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