EU Web Tax Proposed 211
SomeGirl writes "Well, it's finally happening. The EU is proposing a Web tax." Its only a matter of time I s'pose... but quick! By a bunch of stuff while its still tax free! I recommend Moby's 'Play' and the Tenchi in Tokyo DVDs, but stay away from those VW Bugs that they're selling online (Ooo! Look! A Special Color!)
Re:Why all Internet access should be taxed (Score:2)
Times up. That is the problem. Down here in Texas, the Mayor of Dallas, went on a crusade to tax all Internet sales - It failed. His problem was with the proof; all of his evidence was anecdotal.
There is no data available yet that shows conclusively that internet sales are hurting government revenues. Only some politicans' fear that they are missing out on another revenue stream.
Also, please remember, the government seldom imposes taxes and lowers them at a future date. They generally raise them.
Re:Stuff to buy (Score:1)
I dunno about intangibles though (Score:1)
But, although I can understand sales taxes on physical objects, I am incorrigibly opposed to sales taxes on intangibles.
I'm not sure why I'm opposed -- it's sort of an instinctive opposition. I guess I feel that if I'm not getting any THING, then I shouldn't be taxed on it -- it wasn't shipped over roads that need repairs, it wasn't handled by people that need health insurance, and the actual transmission was paid for by my monthly telecom bill.
Tax Cubed.. (Score:1)
Typically, if I order two CD's from a USA based warehouse, they arrive without any additional tax, but if I order three or more, they get intercepted, and I have the pleasure of paying:
Because the third item is a service, it is also subject to Value Added Tax, so I'm not only paying Tax on Tax, but I'm paying Tax on Tax on Tax.
At the moment, it's still economically viable to buy CD's from the USA because of the remarkably high prices that retailers over here charge. Things are changing, but a $7 music CD bought in the states is still less than half the UK14.99 it typically sells for over here.
Secondly, how exactly are the EU going to enforce a law requiring companies outside the USA to register for tax purposes; the amount of extra work that this would require on behalf of the various revenue services would be collosal, not to mention the cost to the taxpayer (tax^4 ?).
No wonder Disaster Area's accountant in The hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy had to invent a whole new branch of integral hypermathematics to deal with the tax returns..
Re:Well there's only one solution to that.. (Score:1)
there is an article about it [wired.com] up at wired.
sure the register had something about it too, but can't find it now
btw is it just me or does their new format make it really hard to see where one article starts and another ends? still a great site tho.
Re:Well there's only one solution to that.. (Score:1)
funny all these sites that have messages like 'if you are in virgina please note that an that blah % sales tax will be added to your order'
Re:This effectively only applies to intangible goo (Score:1)
This can be very convenient, but it shouldn't be mandatory. Barnes & Noble does this for orders from Canada. They charge you for Canadian federal sales tax (GST), and your book arrives quickly, since it doesn't need to clear customs. Plus, you save the brokerage fee ($5, I think), that you would pay otherwise on top of the sales tax. This is great, and because of this I always prefer Barnes & Noble to Amazon (that doesn't offer such a service).
Of course, trying to tax imported intangibles sounds absurd to me, and I'd like to see them enforcing it (if this is what they're trying to do).
Re:It's only fair (Score:1)
When you get down to it, one the major responsibilities of the government is to redistribute income. Yeah, the infrastructure involved w/online ecommerce is a bit more ethereal, but the UPS truck still has to get to your house, the cops need to enforce laws so the truck gets there safely, etc...you get the idea. Only 1.5% of commerce is occurring online. What happens when it is 25%(not that I think that is going to happen ANYTIME soon)? We still need schools, law enforcement, etc. How do you think we should do this? Taxation has been a pretty good mechanism up to now....why change? Do you think you are not going to drop $75 bucks on O'reilly books at FatBrain because you have to pony up $3 additional for VAT? Please, grow up, and get informed everybody. Quit trying to repeal the laws of thermodynamics.
The Web is Already Taxed! (Score:2)
I bought a sword recently on ebay, for a grand total of $56 US. I estimated this as roughly $82 Cdn. Not bad I think, for what was offered and looked forward to receiving it. I had to pay an additional $15 shipping, plus $12 shipping to get it to Canada (Grand total so far $83 US).
Then it hit the border. Canada customs examined the package, opened it, and finding neither a receipt for the value, nor a declaration of the value of the item, appraised it at $250 Cdn. They then added duty of $17.50 Cdn, plus GST and PST of $18.73 Cdn each.
Three weeks after I ordered it, the postman arrived at my door and told me I had to pay $54.96 to receive the item. I had no cash on me, so I had to pick it up the following day from the post office.
I complained to Canada customs about the misevaluation, and once I send off a letter explaining the actual cost of the item, I (hopefully, this is the Government after all) will receive a reimbursement of some of the money, since the GST and PST charged were excessive.
My point here is simply that I purchased an item for $56 US, and ended up paying roughly $182 dollars for it (the exchange rate that day was slightly worse that I thought it was). I bow to the power of e-commerce which has apparently let me purchase an item which has more tax and shipping costs associated with it than the actual cost of the item. Needless to say, I don't plan on purchasing ANYTHING over the net in the future. Its just not economically feasible - what looked like a deal ended up being a complete rip-off IMHO, thanks to the Government duty and taxes and the costs charged for shipping.
There is absolutely NO NEED or justification for adding an additional tax burden onto the poor fucking consumer with a Web Tax. We are already getting reamed if we purchase over the net and have the temerity to buy across a national boundary.
Re:You Said it Jim-Bob! (Score:1)
resent that 'undereducated' though
if i wasn't so bloody educated i'd be way happier
Re:Sales and income tax hiding (Score:1)
The same thing can be said of income tax...what's the best way to lower it...eliminate withholding. Withholding was devised during World War 2, prior to that time, only the rich paid income taxes, and when they did, they had to send it all in at one time. After withholding, you could raise taxes quite a lot and no one would really know except on paper. Let's say someone makes $60,000 per year and they get assessed for federal taxes at about $10,000. Well,now, they only see the money on paper, and it really never touches them. But if you ended withholding, every April they would make a check out to the IRS for $10,000...that would make a huge difference in how people look at taxes and think about the government.
Furthermore, I am against income taxes because it's a subtle form of stealing. If you buy a product or own property, that is putting a strain on public resources...so a tax may be appropriate. But just making money isn't putting a strain on public resources, and there is nothing stopping the state or the feds from increasing your tax rate to 90% and letting you have 10% to live, instead of letting you have 70% of your income to live. Property taxes and sales taxes are most definitely the way to go.
Re:evil pinko red magenta auburn scarlet commie... (Score:1)
he attacked you . . . so he would seem to be in absolute agreement with your comment :)
Re:How will this be enforced? (Score:1)
But we don't actually sell Windows 2000... (Score:1)
I'm sure the EU is unfortunately aware of this and the full EU commission proposal allows for this.
Interesting mental picture: Red ants = EU suprafederal governmental entities, Black ants = Microsoft and associated lawyers, in the same glass jar, shaken.
Re:This effectively only applies to intangible goo (Score:1)
You are required to pay VAT on all imports from outside the Union if the value exceeds something like EUR10.
But if the customs authorities are busy, you may have a lucky day.
A few years ago, lots of the stuff I bought from Amazon went through without VAT, but now the customs office has discovered that taxing Amazon deliveries makes a lot of money, so now I normally have to pay 25% extra on everything (including the shipping charges).
The result? I mostly buy books from other EU countries where the VAT rate is much lower.
Photon... (Score:1)
Nothing serious in the series so far- all silly comedy.
Re:amazing... (Score:1)
Wheras those legal immigrants to the US do not have to pay taxes to a government they do have a voice in, and which taxes they can surely reclaim should (medicaid, soc. sec. &c.) they be smote low?? Phah!
Re:Alaska has no sales tax AND NOT INCOME TAX! (Score:1)
Sales taxes (Score:3)
Sales tax is unnecessarily messy: you tax consumers directly, pennies at a time, for everything they purchase. Very inefficient: for starters it's inconvenient to me to go into a convenience store, grab a bag of Doritos marked $0.99, and have to pay more than a dollar. It's hard to figure out exactly how much your groceries are going to cost, and it varies between states, and sometimes between cities. Also, if the customer can prove out-of-state residency (by showing a driver's license), they're usually exempt from sales taxes. More importantly, though, there's a fair ammount of overhead involved in actually collecting sales tax - both on the part of the retailer and the government.
Income tax is much easier, because your employer only has to deal with it for each employee, instead of each customer, and you only have to pay it once a year, rather than every time you go to the store. $0.99 Doritos cost $0.99 instead of $1.06. Everything costs what it says it costs. If you're from out of state, there's nothing to worry about; there's no sales tax anyway. This also means that there's no problem with interstate commerce on the Web.
In areas that attract a lot of tourists, the state generally collects a lot of sales taxes, and this helps the government. Great! Collect the same money from local businesses in the form of income taxes instead. If people are spending money, the businesses must be making money; tax that instead! Much easier.
Anyway, what I was really trying to get at was, doing away with sales tax completely solves the problem of Internet taxes. You don't need to worry about taxing online transactions if you instead tax the people and businesses in your own state or country regardless of what purchases are being made.
I apologize for the poor wording and lack of coherency of my rant, and I'd appreciate any feedback.
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Oregon has no sales tax as well. (Score:1)
-Vel
Re:Build a wall around Europe (Score:1)
In practice here in the UK, it's just an easy way for the government to increase taxes after having promised not to increase income tax, cos that might annoy rich people.
Never mind that VAT taxes the poor disproportionately, or that gas (natural, not petrol) and electricity and many other things are plainly not luxury goods, which were what was supposed to be taxed when it was brought in.
Re:Tax is necessary (Score:1)
Police, roads, utilities (which are gov-funded in part in the US atleast), telephone regulation (keep prices down, keep competition up), the very thing that the DoJ is doing with Microsoft and did with AT&T, these are all provided by the government in the US.
I assume that there are equivalent services that the governments provide in the EU that need to be funded. A tax is not the only way to make money, but is certainly the least evil way. Can you imagine the goverment getting money solely from running businesses? Conflicts of interest would quickly come about when a commercial competitor gets in trouble.
Re:Build a wall around Europe (Score:2)
No, VAT taxes the value added in each transformation process (where you are actually *adding* a value). VAT is paid only once through any chain of distributions.
"Web" Tax? (Score:1)
I guess the other thing to be careful there is to find out what this law would consider tax-evasion.
Re:Why all Internet access should be taxed (Score:1)
Recently, though, they've been trying to pass a sales tax to pay for of all things public education and have been having one hell of a time getting the voters to accept it. So pretty soon, sales taxes will be pretty much nation-wide here in the USA.
So why not on the internet too, I guess? But would that be state-level, or national-level? On goods coming into the nation? There are still issues to be resolved.
Re:evil pinko red commie bastards (Score:1)
could we quit with this argument already, ok the mighty us military lost against the viet cong, che guevara took cuba with 800(0) ? soldiers against a much larger (us funded) force.
but...
you are not vietnamese, you are not cuban, you haven't been fighting against foreign rule for generations, you don't live in a country with a poor infrastructure, you are not fighting a poorly trained, unused to death, avg. 19 year old, unfamilier with the territory, overextended force.
are you really going to send your kids out to greet the soldiers with a semtex vest?
id'e recommend investing in some serious NBC type weaponry if you want to stand a chance.
on the other hand fighting an urban guerilla war might work, lots of places to hide, hard for them to fight back, and easy to cause a lot of damage. either that or anonymous terrori^h^h^h^h^h^h^h freedom fighting a la senor unabomber.
More information from European Voice (Score:1)
I think you should read it if you're interested in this; unfortunately the article is no longer on-line, but I kept a copy:
Re:Sales and income tax hiding (Score:1)
With income tax, the government makes exceptions if you spend money on worthy causes - donating to non-profit organizations, for example. I agree that income tax shouldn't be a ridiculously high percentage just because you make a lot of money, but it probably should be lower for poor people because they really can't afford it (trust me).
Income tax may be stealing, but so is property tax. If you make improvements to my house that increase its value, your property taxes go up.
Income tax and sales tax do pretty much the same thing, it's just that income tax is a lot less messy and annoying.
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Yes.... (Score:1)
Re:All right, confess...who modded this crap up? (Score:1)
If you look at the exchange rates of all the major currencys you see a trend, the higher the tax rate, the lower the relative growth. Since the US figured this out, why don't other countries?
Re:Err, not quite (Score:1)
Not at our place, they don't. :-)
Mark
Re:Why all Internet access should be taxed (Score:1)
Re:This effectively only applies to intangible goo (Score:1)
Some relative of me once orderred something that was delivered by the regular ptt and was immediatly hit with a VAT charge.
Re:How will this be enforced? (Score:1)
Thats what Federal Income Tax is for. (Score:1)
But corporations already pay a federal income tax. A web tax would go to the municipalities and states to make up for the (supposed) decrease in
revenue from out-of-state sales tax purchases. It isn't as if the corporations are getting anything for free, instead it is the local governments getting annoyed because they get less money. Of course, out-of-state companies consume no local resources (they don't need the services of the local police force, for example), so this shouldn't be a problem. But governments of any sort are always going to complain about not getting their hands on revenue, whether they
deserve it or not. That's what governments do.p
Re:amazing... (Score:1)
Ha! "Level the playing field" I love it. Why don't they just call it what it is: a tariff. Gosh, if Pat Buchanan were European he'd love it, too! This is the same thing the US gov't did in the 80's to "level the playing field" because we made inferior cars. (I still won't drive an American car, except maybe a Mexican made PT Cruiser!)
Anyways, on a more serious note, American business could see this as a problem. It seems like there are alot of wedges being thrown up between the US and the EU. As far as American business is concerned, this is a big deal. I imagine alot of companies were targeting the EU as a possible market and this tax will throw up another barrier to their entry.
These days, the EU is the biggest economic and political competitor to the US. I fear that if both parties don't get over the nationalistic/insular feelings toward each other the world could be heading toward a polarized situation not unlike the situation between the US and the USSR 20 years ago.
Re:Can never leave good enough alone (Score:1)
Stuff to buy (Score:2)
the EU (Score:1)
Well there's only one solution to that.. (Score:1)
no, just kidding.
If this goes into effect, I recommend a boycott of all EU goods sold online. Embargos are nonfun, but really one of very few good ways to get a point across economically.
Re:VW Bugs (Score:1)
I have no doubt I'll get trolled for pushing this link - but it's my website devoted to what's wrong with the new 'Beetle' and the people who love them: the Society for the Preservation of Aircooled Machinery [home.net]
AIRCOOLED FOREVER
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, ANYTHING BUT TENCHI (Score:1)
But...Tenchi...at least get something equally silly like Slayers.
--
If there is a God, you are an authorized representative. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr.
Build a wall around Europe (Score:2)
What's with charging VAT on electronically delivered software, anyway? As I understand it, VAT taxes the "value added" at each step of a manufacturing/distribution process; exactly how many production steps does a piece of software go through? I would imagine just one, writing, especially if it isn't put into a box.
-----------------------------------------------
Who are you? An EU spokesbeast? (Score:2)
So it is:
1) Money
2) Given to the gov't
3) By the citizens (either directly or indirectly)
4) For purchases on the web
5) Called a tax
But it's not a web tax. That's pretty damn amazing all right.
As for your "level playing field" phrasing--so what? ALL taxes are for the good of SOMEBODY.
--
Wanna hook MAPI clients to your Tru64/AIX/Linux server?
Well... (Score:1)
www.badassmofo.com [badassmofo.com]
Re:Who are you? An EU spokesbeast? (Score:2)
(Now, why that's +5 informative is beyond me, but hey, I didn't do it.)
--
-jacob
How will this be enforced? (Score:4)
And as this crosses national lines, not just state/province lines, how can the EU hope to enforce this. Will they block sites which offer items for sale? Restrict deliveries?
It seems like an idea that's bad on paper and could only get worse in its implementation.
Re:VW Bugs (Score:1)
the other reason not to get one of thier special edition bugs, is that they won't make them with a TDI [tdiclub.com] engine in them.
You got it all wrong, read the article dammit ! (Score:4)
Re:States without Sales Tax (Score:2)
And, FWIW, Delaware is getting along just fine, thank you.
As is Oregon. The only economic problems lately have been the closing of timber and pulp mills....
Only partly true. Oregon is doing OK now, largely because of corporate income tax from companies like Intel, but 10 years ago, when measure 5 first passed (measure 5 was Oregon's property tax ceiling) Oregon was in a world of hurt. And they still have one of the most confiscatory income taxes in the country.
Personally, I prefer sales tax to state income tax for several reasons. First, it's a tax on consumption, so everyone -- tourists or residents, rich or poor, pay it in the same fashion. Secondly, it incentivizes not spending your money (investing, savings, etc.) -- whereas if you go to invest money that's had income tax taken out, there goes a chunk of your principal off the top. And third, collecting sales taxes is a lot less expensive from an operational perspective -- compare the outlays vs. dollars returned of the revenue departments of the four states (New Hampshire doesn't count, it has neither) that have no sales tax but do have income tax with those of the nine states which have sales tax but no income tax.
My opinion only, IANAL.
Re:Build a wall around Europe (Score:2)
Re:Well there's only one solution to that.. (Score:2)
There is no VAT on books in the UK, dunno aout the rest of Europe though. That's why importing DVDs from the States via Amazon is often the best way as customs often let Amazon stuff through thinking it'll be a book.
Not that I've personally had any problems importing goods that exceed the value of the 'personal import' allowance (touch wood).
There's also no VAT on second hand (used) stuff, so some companies open the box before sending it to make it no longer new.... I guess this is a bit dodgy
heh
troc
Re:Is this enforceable? Sure it is! (Score:2)
The EU could also seize your European assets. If you don't have any, you are at least still relying on EU law to protect your copyrights, patents, and contractual enforcement.
friggin Canada Post (Score:2)
OTOH, I have bought a bunch of used and new Lasers from a little company in Texas and their order guy always puts $10 or $15 for the value on my Lasers when he sends them up here, so I never pay anything on them. That includes the brand new Phantom Menace laser, which retails for around US$100. Thanks, Randy!
Pope
Freedom is Slavery! Ignorance is Strength! Monopolies offer Choice!
Time to bring back the concept of FOB (Score:2)
It seems to me that with the net the FOB point is at one of the NAPs. If this is the case then the old rules should apply and the importer should deal with the tax. There is lots of international law on this stuff already.
Where the EU is having a problem is not that the law does not allow them to charge vat, it does, it's that they can't detect the imports and regulate them. The real thrust of this proposal is to move the responsibility for collecting existing taxes onto corporations because they are a lot less hassle to persue than consumers.
John (who in another life started a company selling software over the net and so thinks he knows about this stuff :-)
Tax free= Subsidy (Score:2)
Net Taxes == Net Regulation (Score:2)
Sound like a decent idea?
daemones
-"I'm not evil. Evil is too subjective."
Taxation without Representation (Score:2)
Re:It's only fair (Score:2)
But a tax on purchases from the U.S. won't go back to the USDA, the U.S. FTC, or any other U.S. regulatory agency which can protect you from that sort of thing. You can bet once the EU gets their hands on the money, they aren't going to ship it back across the Atlantic.
Since there isn't an international regulatory body with authority at both ends of the transaction, there's nothing that the EU can do if you get cheated out of your software or music purchase on the web. The EU is just trying to add income which isn't matched by their expenditures (since presumably the U.S. is already watching for fraudulent merchants in the U.S.), and the result is pure profit for them.
Not that the U.S. wouldn't try to do the same thing, of course, and probably will. The situation with state taxes within the U.S. is a little better, since there are federal agencies that can regulate both ends of an interstate transaction. However, even in that case I would rather see the states raise taxes on those who use state resources (UPS/Fedex, and the merchant) rather than taxing purchasers from another state directly. The merchants and UPS/Fedex can just up their prices a little, and everybody can be happy without adding torturous (sp?) new tax laws.
No taxation without representation. (Score:2)
Repeat as needed until it sticks.
I, as resident of state X, do not have a voice in the governmental affairs of state Y. Nor am I using any of state Y's gov't provided services (roads, etc.). Therefore, state Y has no right to tax me.
If ***I*** go physically to state Y and buy something, I pay sales tax because I am using their roads, adding to their gridlock, consuming local resources, etc.
If I ***mail order something***, their local shippers use the roads and add to the local gridlock (not me). The web store uses local resources (not me) ,etc. Get it? I'm not in your state or consuming its resources. Now the web store or the shipper might try to pass that cost on to me as higher prices and shipping fees (which may make me choose to shop remotely in another state), but their **gov't** has no right to tax me. I'm not there. The local businesses shoose to operate there and pay the local taxes. It was **their** choice.
States without Sales Tax (Score:3)
And, FWIW, Delaware is getting along just fine, thank you. They are snagging huge amounts of sales away from the states around them, because people will drive over the border to pick up those big-ticket items w/o sales tax. They also sell lots of liquor to PA residents who are sick of the lousy state liquor store sytem back home (socialism, anyone?)
As someone above mentioned, the income tax in Delaware is VERY high (about twice the Pennsylvania rate, from personal experience
Added benefit of Delware: they make it damn hard to become a lawyer there. Keeps the population down!
Jon
And the money will all go to Luxemburg... (Score:2)
So if they really do it like this it'll benefit nearly no-one. They should at least make it so that the country where the customer lives gets the money.
Not that that'd help either, the entire system would be horribly complex, cost fortunes and be completely unenforceable.
Re:Double Tax? (Score:2)
You have to pay the VAT rate of the country you live in. For example, if you live in France and buy somehting online, you'll have to pay the 20-something % VAT the French Government steals from everything. As a customer, you have better time living where the VAT rate is the lowest.
Now, since I live in Switzerland, I have to pay the VAT (7.5%) when receiving the goods wether they're from the US or the EU, straight to the postie. It's the same thing here than in the EU, I suppose.
If a US company wants to sell goods in the EU, they don't necessarily have to pay any VAT themselves, but the customer in the EU does.
Of course, I could be wrong all the way...
Re:You are wrong! (Score:3)
Switzerland won't join the EU before at least another 10-15 years. We just voted a big YES (76%) in favor of bilateral agreements between our venerable country and the EU. Now (well, when the agreements are totally implemented), it's *almost* like being in the EU without having to give up our strong currency in favor of the Euro, which isn't worth jackshit. Hundreds of companies chose Switzerland for their European HQ's (less tax, central location, etc.). Sci/Tech companies already take many pages in the phone book here.
I dunno about mail-order companies, but my newest "neighbour" is Handspring, maker of the Visor PDA. There's also HP, Compaq, IBM, etc... Not talking about all the international organisations.
The French usually don't like Switzerland (jealous?), and tend to treat us like the black sheeps of Europe for being "that little rich country". So far, we have a stronger currency, the lowest unemployment rate (1.9% only) and *very* attractive wages (at least twice higher than in France) and some of the lowest VAT rate (7.5%). And pot is to be legalized at the end of the year, too! Beer is cheap as well...
Really, I don't see why we should join the EU... To get our tax levels doubled, have our currency basically cancelled and inherit an average 15% unemployment rate? No thanks...
And, IIRC, as of next year EU citizens will be able to live and work freely in Switzerland.
Come and have fun in Geneva, man!
Max
Re:What if I ***don't want*** gov't services? (Score:2)
//rdj
Re:amazing... (Score:2)
This is a web tax. The tax is often higher due to the VAT computation for ecommerce than for brick and mortar.
Not only will this put many small companies (with razor-thin profit margins) out of business, it is also taxation without representation. Why should I, a US citizen, have to play tax collector for a government which I have no voice in and whose territory I don't even live in.
Taxes often do more harm (in productivity, lost income, higher prices, weakened economy, or business decisions) than good (increased revenue for a government agency). Look right now. Our great economy has changed our budget deficit in America into a surplus.
Anyway, I hope that US ecommerce companies boycott the EU should this happen.
Re:amazing... (Score:2)
it is also taxation without representation.
What do you mean ? Under this law, European citizens are taxed by their own governments.
Why should I, a US citizen, have to play tax collector for a government which I have no voice in and whose territory I don't even live in.
You, as a US citizen don't have to do anything of the sort. US ecommerce companies have to play tax-collector just like (for example) US car companies that sell cars in Europe. I reckon though that it would be more difficult for ecommerce startups than for established names with offices in Europe
Anyway, I hope that US ecommerce companies boycott the EU should this happen.
Boy, that would really hurt Europe, European businesses and European consumers. I mean, imagine the US ecommerce companies deciding not to sell to the European market. Wow, what a disaster :-).
You have to see this as another strike in the undeclared trade war between the US and Europe. The European rationale is : we are lagging behind the US in ecommerce companies and American companies are getting a large piece of the pie in the European market. So what do we do: impose a tax in ecommerce transactions (which actually is the same VAT tax for normal transactions and for Europe 2 Europe ecommerce transactions that is in effect now). This will level the field with american e-tailers (actually it will be more difficult for smaller ones as the big guys like amazon.com allready have European subsidiaries) and maybe give European companies a small advantage over Americans, since in the US it is unlikely that the administration/congress will pass taxation in ecommerce anytime soon
However still it's not that bad for American companies. They can choose to be taxed, say in Ireland or Luxembourg where the VAT rate is significantly lower than in Germany. European countries don't have that option (I repeat that European ecommerce companies are already subect to this law for Europe2Europe transactions).
Re:But we don't actually sell Windows 2000... (Score:2)
//rdj
Re:evil pinko red commie bastards (Score:2)
"Why, the government can just garnish the wages of the top 1% of wage-earners and use it to buy everybody sports cars! That is your socialist paradise, isn't it?"
Kinda, except part of the idea is to get people away from the capitalist idea of identity through consumerism. You are defined by your actions, not your posessions.
" Everybody's equal?"
Right.
" Hard work means nothing? "
Wrong.
The idea is that 40 hours of work as a VP is not more vaulable than 40 hours of work flipping burgers. News flash, AC: people are POOR, and our capitalist system does everything it can to keep them that way. If we can help them and all it means is that Bill G. gets to buy one less porsche for his fleet, it think it's insane to do anything else. The wealthy generally aren't wealthy for being better people, and the poor generally aren't poor for being worse.
"If those in the working class were as "competent" as you claim, it's a wonder that they're still in the working class. Our society gives people the tools that they need to advance themselves, if they are talented enough."
Like a great, low- or no-cost eduacation, right? Like low- or no-cost health care so they can overcome physical disabilities or diseases without having to lower their standard of living? Bull shit. You're living in a rich suburban fantsy world. The simple fact is that racism, sexism, homophobia and burning arrogance blind the "upper class." They see what they want to see; people are happy, things are great, America is the land of opportunity, and we're rich becuase we're smart.
That's a fat load, and you know it. The rich are so because of the work other people do, not because they have some kind of fucking divine right to wealth. The assertion that "anyone can make it" has been an illusion from the very start. Wealth begets wealth; when was the last time you heard about a young black kid from a poor family making millions on a NASDAQ IPO? Never. They're always from families that were relatively well off to begin with.
"There is NO EXCUSE for not having enough retirement money to live on. If you didn't save, it's your fault."
Problem is, people used to have pensions to retire on. What do we have? IRAs, 401K's, which require you to set aside money from your paycheck. People who live hand-to-mouth can't afford that, so they have to live on SS. Not to mention the people with disabilities, and people who are widowed who can't support themselves or their families.
[ snip a lot of hysterical liberal gun-grabber crap ]
Sorry, I just have an aversion to being shot.
"Jesus said that those who speak the truth will be attacked. Your comment here is just more evidence that our Lord was correct. "
Jesus also said that it is eaiser for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to go to heaven. Enjoy your Boxster.
Re:Yep, electronic stuff should pay less or nothin (Score:2)
//rdj
(UK) VAT in a nutshell (Score:2)
All businesses with a turnover of more than £51,000 in a 12-month period (last time I looked - it may have gone up) are required to register. Others do it voluntarily; it makes a small-turnover business look bigger and more professional. Only VAT-registered businesses may reclaim VAT on purchases ('input tax') and add it to sales ('output tax').
Just to make it more complicated, there is more than one rate in the UK (17.5% for most things, 8% for domestic fuel, 0% for a whole list of things, like books, groceries, childrens clothes), plus exemtions (funerals, for example). Zero-rate VAT is different from VAT exemption (businesses which make exempt goods/services can't reclaim the input tax on purchases).
Nothing new..already in Canada (Score:2)
When the GST came in, charging an extra 7% on goods and services, it was supposed to go towards the national dept. The only thing it's done is ruin us more and go to the pockets of our idiot politicians.
Anyway, when I buy something online from a US company, I still get charged the friggen GST even though I didn't buy the item in Canada. Equality? HA! Money grabbing beurocrats? YES!
I don't believe I should have to pay GST (the EU VAT equiv) on items that I don't buy in Canada. Canada saw that all the buying would be across the boarders and overseas so they didn't want to loose their precious money. What BS!
Re:amazing... (Score:2)
Anyone have a link to a more in-depth story that explains the enforcement of this? The EU can easilly identify violators (just try to buy something and see if a VAT is added); but how do they plan to attempt enforceing the VAT on a company if that company has no physical presence in the EU?
Taxes (Score:2)
I have no problem paying these taxes for these useful services. Its the useless BS that I hate paying for. Subsidies to farmers to NOT grow things? Foriegn aid to countries that take our money and then spit in out face? Welfare for people who dont want to work? Blah blah the list goes on.
The concept of taxing internet sales to "level" the playing field is crap. Alot of people still use and will continue to use meatspace shopping. I for one like to look at something with my own eyes before I buy it. I only buy things online if I already know exactly what I want, and I can find it cheaper. So what if meatspace stores have to pay more taxes? They have some value that online shopping cant necessarily compete with. Let the consumer choose, and if the store front goes the way of the dinosaur, so be it. Dont try to kill the online shopping idea so its "fair".
Also, the concept of taxing retail stores to help provide for the infrastructure somewhat makes sense. But in a way it doesnot. The 60% Tax I pay for my gas pays for roads. My local taxes already pay for the cops. What infrastructure is the govt providing that they need my money for, that they dont already get from somewhere else?
They didnot build the mall, the retailers/land owners did. They pay local property taxes for cops etc too.
This concept goes even further with the internet.
What infrastructure do I need to pay for again?
The internet is mostly owned by big ISP's, and I pay for that infrastructure by my ISP fees.
This is just another way to get more blood from the people.
Anarchy Burger! Hold the Government!
- Steel
This effectively only applies to intangible goods (Score:3)
This stuff is changing *where* the tax is paid - so on tangibles would have the advantage for EU people that they wouldn't be additionally hit for for the tax collecting charge. However it would mean that software delivered over the internet (look, no customs), would also be taxed.
Can it be implemented, can it hell.
And this is a surprise? (Score:2)
This is the style of wealth-redistribution that many want to introduce into the United States. They've already got their foot in their door with socialist entitlement programs such as Social Security and Medicare. After they nationalize the health care system and shut down private, religious schools, you can bet they'll be coming after our guns. They'll be up against a firefight if they knock on my door, by God.
Why all Internet access should be taxed (Score:3)
With the Internet economy increasing at an exponential rate, many people are going to turn away from the conventional means of shopping. Grocery stores will be phazed out by online Grocery stores, as will the common Electronics Store, the common Book and Movie Store, and the common Clothing Store. All of their online counterparts are now available in abundance on the Internet, and most shoppers that peruse their wares are exemt from paying any taxes, through a signifigant loophole - they are not making the purchase in the state the product itself is located. As such, they pay no taxes, and the Government loses money from the sale.
I believe that it would be best for the economy if all e-Commerce sites were taxed. Now, I am not in favor of taxing internet access itself -- that needs to be as cheap as possible to allow the most people access. However a 10% Internet Sales tax would quickly help governments recoup losses to date from previous online sales, then in a few years, lower it down to a more managable 5-6%.
Re:amazing... (Score:3)
You won't you twat, if you bothered to read the article before spouting off you would realise that this is a tax on goods shipped from outside the EU into the EU ordered over the web. It's just like the import duty that you as a US citizen pay on French wine or Italian salami.
So read before opening your mouth.
Nick
Death and Taxes... (Score:3)
"But it was Andy Grove who made the most unexpected news, though few outlets emphasized it. In testimony before the Joint Economic Committee, the Intel chairman lent his support to taxes on Net-purchased goods and to stronger privacy legislation. The Wall Street Journal led with Grove in its piece about the hearings, and the Washington Post noted his remarks at the end of its piece. "
Taxes are on their way. Buy now while the web is still unregulated.
Re:Try reading the article Taco (Score:2)
Nick
amazing... (Score:5)
The CNNfn article is misleading- they shouldn't have called it a "web tax," which to most of us means "tax on using the web." What the EU actually proposed was a value-added tax on goods and services, sold over the Internet by non-EU businesses, to customers inside the EU in order to level the playing field for EU-based companies that already have to charge a value-added tax. It is not, in the usual meaning of the word, a "web tax." Now you know.
--
-jacob
Tax is necessary (Score:2)
If all of the sales are being made online, the government(s) need to do something to get revenue. Lack of tax is NOT why I buy things online, I look for the selection, ability to price things (and get price quotes from more than one place), and the large inventory (inherent for a company that sells online-they keep all the stock in one "place").
Even going to the local supply house (Graybar, for instance), they don't have half of the stuff I need and they have it shipped from other locations. I generally have it the next day.
My conclusion: Taxes are necessary, and will not harm the online economy.
Implementation (Score:3)
On the web, it's harder to see the infrastructure. The server (equivalent of the mall) is owned by the Ebiz or is paid for by the Ebiz. The phonelines (equivalent of the roads) is owned by a telecomm company and is paid for by the Ebiz.
Then you may be asking yourself:
1. What is his point?
2. Fair Taxes?
3. What was that I just drank?
5. Did he just skip 4?
6. Where would this tax money supposedly go?
7. Is that how you spell equivalent?
So the answers:
I don't know.
Just Imagine it.
You don't want to know.
Yes.
To the implementation of laws and such.
I'm not a dictionary, Go Away.
Now I know other people are ranting and flaming about the police are already paid and they should enforce laws on the web with the money they already have. But that would just make other taxes go above the "fair" line.
The reason I personally don't think this should be done is the cost of implementation. It will cost more to force people to pay the taxes then you will actually recieve. How do you stop a sale going through from a company in Germany that has a server in Canada (hypothetically)? Do you track the traffic on the Canadian server? I don't think they will like that.
I lost my train of thought, so I hope someone gets my point and then tells everyone else what it is.
Devil Ducky
Re:EU Tax - Read Carefully (Score:2)
What expenditures does the EU have that require this tax income? You can say "proper taxes" all that you want, but if I am in the EU and buy software from the U.S., what services has the EU provided for me that they must be reimbursed for it with a tax? The U.S. government (read: U.S. taxpayers) has already paid (through supporting regulatory agencies, the courts, and the police) for the production of that good. The only costs to the EU for me to download that good from the US are the communications lines and the electricity, which I'm sure are already taxed in the EU.
So by letting the U.S. do all of the work, and collecting the taxes anyway, the EU is making a pure profit off of its member countries' citizens (or are you EU citizens now?). I don't agree that the government is entitled to a particular income, especially when it hasn't done any work to deserve it.
Re:Tenchi In Tokyo??? (Score:2)
You're not a troll. It was utter dreck in comparison with the other two Tenchi series. At least if they had used the same art crew it wouldn't have been so bad. But they were working on something called Photon of which what little I've seen doesn't look like it was worth the trade-off. What the fans (at least in
I had already decided not to buy this series on domestic LD, should Pioneer still have been producing LD at that time. But I didn't feel so bad about getting it on DVD because it didn't cost as much as LD would have.
(Confession: I got one of the import LDs because it came in a box with cool cover art of Ryoko, and last weekend I got two others because they were half price closeouts. And the import LDs have a really bizarre omake show that didn't make it onto the US DVDs. Bizarre as in a naked crucified Tenchi with a distressed looking Ryo-Ohki trying to block the view of his private parts kind of bizarre. Okay, so that was only the most bizarre scene.)
Re:Why all Internet access should be taxed (Score:2)
I live in IL but use the toll roads maybe twice a year. As far as I'm concerned, they should be paid for entirely by usage taxes. I'd rather my taxes fund some sort of mass transit around the NW suburbs, for example.
Of course, you probably couldn't get the toll roads passed by the legislature in the first place with that platform, but I think it makes sense now. Tolls combine a usage tax with a gentle encouragement to use a more efficient means of transportation, like the train.
Re:EU Tax - Read Carefully (Score:2)
Yes, taxes are higher in Canada, but the services provided by the government are more, as well.
Now, I'm not a Canadian, and I may have this wrong - if so, please correct me, I'd rather know the truth than a pleasant fiction.
In the US, we have a fairly pathetic welfare system (in more ways that one, but that's a differant ball of wax altogether), rather limited need-based aid for college tuition (primarily loans), and no state provided health coverage aside from medicare/medicade (very difficult for most people to get, unless you are past retirement age), and a mish-mash of programs provided on the State and local level.
In other words, Canadians pay more, and get more, from their government than US citizens.
Some people consider this a good thing (the people who see welfare as creeping socialism or worse) and some people think this is a bad thing (people who believe that the care of the citizens should go beyond terms such as "socialist").
Personally, I'd like see something that is a little more of a compromise. But regardless, I for one wouldn't mind seeing my taxes increase dramatically, provided that the money was actually going to help people in the US, and potentially myself.
But one way or the other, Canadians pay more tax because they get more services.
Is this enforceable? (Score:2)
Catalog Sales vs. Internet Sales (Score:2)
(and yes, I realizes that by putting a tax on out-of-state purchases, it resolves the inconsistancy. It still doesn't answer why it wasn't important until the Internet came about... Surely catalog sales are still higher than internet sales....!)
I wish governments were more driven by logic... rather than by hype and opportunity..
Try reading the article Taco (Score:3)
If you actually read the article instead of just the headline, it turns out that this is much less sinister than it sounds. The proposal is actually that goods manufactured outside the EU that are ordered over the web should be charged VAT, which is perfectly reasonable. Otherwise, non-EU manufacturers selling over the web would have a substantial advantage over all EU manufacturers and non-EU people selling through every other channel. This is not some special tax that applies only to web users; it's applying a tax that everyone else already has to pay to web users, who weren't paying it already. IOW it's just leveling the playing field.
Re:Build a wall around Europe (Score:2)
I think the EU might have given US businesses a choice: collect the tax yourself or let your customers pay them. Note, however, that small businesses (less than $100k in EU sales) seem to be exempt from the law altogether.
As for enforceability, a US company doing business with someone in the EU does fall under EU jurisdiction, and the EU certainly has lots of means at their disposal for enforcement. Taxation of on-line software sales may not be feasible at all, but to the degree that it is feasible, it can be applied uniformly to EU and non-EU purchases.
Re:How will this be enforced? (Score:2)
For items, like software, directly sent over the net I'm not sure how they could do this, but for physical items shipped to the EU its easy to enforce. Everything sent into the country must pass through customs (at least in Canada it does) so they can verify items at that point. You won't catch it all but you should be able to catch a lot.
US *should* have a friggin' web tax! (Score:2)
Yeah, they don't want to pay taxes, but they still want the government's services.
Hey, I don't want to pay taxes, but I still want paved roads to drive on and fire fighters and cops, so I deal. It should be no different with these corps.
-JimTheta, jimtheta@beer.com
As long as we're talking about tax... (Score:2)
--
Kyle R. Rose, MIT LCS
Re:Sales taxes (Score:2)
But the way this is implemented is definetly better than in US. All stores are required by law to mark the full price(including vat, that is) on everything. So when you look at the prices you know exactly how much you're paying. Stores fix the prices to nice even amounts and you don't have to play with pennies at all. Although looking at the receipt you can afterwards curse the government for taking over 20cents for your dollar(different units of course for Finland).
Then again.. I currently live in Delaware and enjoy the benefits of tax-free shopping all the time(except for some special items.. might be tobacco, alcohol and medication.. not too sure). Final sale price is as marked but 5 minutes down the road in Maryland everything changes.. If they have to have sales tax why not implement it properly. Do it like they do in Finland(except for that insane rate) and take the burden of dealing with prices like 11.67 away from consumer and to the store..
Btw, I laughed my ass of about the abolishment of tax free shopping while traveling inside europe with everyone complaining and prices going up and jobs being lost and... whatever..
Re:Haiku (Score:2)
Five Seven Five! Whence came
your inspiration? Perhaps
Cryptonomicon?
Torrey Hoffman (Azog)
Haiku (Score:2)
Perhaps it will be alright
Shout "Don't tread on me!"
Double Tax? (Score:3)
EU Tax - Read Carefully (Score:3)
Re:Why all Internet access should be taxed (Score:3)