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Programming IT Technology

New Borland/Inprise Linux Developer Survey 680

Posted by Hemos from the stand-and-be-counted dept.
We've mentioned the Borland/Inprise Linux Developers Surveys before. Kinda like the The Linux Counter, it's a way for the needs of the community to be codified and show the corporate folks that we really do count - in numbers and in skills. So, check out the latest survey and we'll probably post the results in a few weeks.

Update: 02/15 01:46 by michael : Readers will notice that one of your fellow readers is abusing the system. Take my word for it that CmdrTaco is well aware of the situation and is preparing to Take Steps. It is frankly a shame that Slashdot's loose authentication system which is designed to allow people to participate without providing your name, SSN and mother's maiden name like so many other forums is also subject to abuse. Fixes are at hand in the very near future, so don't e-mail, don't call, don't post complaining that Slashdot is going to the dogs -- we're on it. Well, I'm not on it, but you know what I mean. :)
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New Borland/Inprise Linux Developer Survey More

New Borland/Inprise Linux Developer Survey

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  • I hope it's as funny as that other survey they had a while back.
  • Why do we need to go to them to show that we exist? Aren't they dependant on us enough as it is? Seriously now, it makes me sick.
  • Why do they care now? I'm sure corel will push them as hard as they can to crush microsoft.

    [ c h a d o k e r e ] [dhs.org]
  • 1.13 For Open Source applications, which license is most preferable to your organization see http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/license-list.html for a GNU.ORG perspective of various Open Source licenses
    • GPL (GNU General Public License)
    • LGPL (Lesser GPL)
    • Mozilla
    • QPL
    • Any license recognized by the Open Source Initiative
    • Does not matter
    • Other
    Careful what you say here! Borland/Corel may end-up with a restrictive license!!!
    --
    " It's a ligne Maginot [maginot.org]-in-the-sky "

  • Remember... (Score:4)

    by Merk ( 25521 ) on Monday February 14, 2000 @08:10PM (#1274705) Homepage

    Corel just bought Inprise/Borland [slashdot.org], and according to the recent interview with Slashdot [slashdot.org] Corel really seems to be going all-out for Linux.

    I think Corel is really committed to Linux and this isn't just a publicity thing. They really hate MS over there, as would anyone who has tried to compete with MS on a core product. They might be pretty clueless when it comes to the GPL, but give them a chance.

    If they become a good member of the Linux community think of what they have to offer. Graphics knowledge from Corel PhotoPaint and Corel Draw. A very good word processing program (I maintain anything with "reveal codes" has to be superior to Word). Good IDEs from Inprise/Borland. They even have some really good hardware knowledge. Remember they're the ones originally behind the Netwinder [netwinder.org]

    I know this is somewhat offtopic, but as an Ottawa resident I'm just hoping that a local company can inspire a little fear in Microsoft and hope we can help them do it instead of just flaming them for their errors.

  • ... I really look forward to the day that Delphi, or C++ Builder, is available for software development on Linux.

    And I hope that surveys like this are done honestly by the Linux community - Inprise/Borland have always been a great company for developers, and it can only make sense for them to be involved in the Linux movement.

    It seems to me, that with Inprise/Borland on its turf, Linux would be an ideal software development platform. Better than the existing options, anyway.

  • Be sure to go to their form and in the comments add how BSD is YOUR choice of OS!

    And, point out how a BSD-esque licence is a choice.

    The last time they asked about Linux, they didn't have checkoffs for BSD. This time they did.

  • It is 9:34 PM EST. There are about 140 comments on this message. Fully 90 percent of them are very, very lame spam, not even trolls.

    When it's in moderation, they're amusing, or at least tolerable. This is just ridiculous though. The slashdot people should think about doing something about this and PRONTO. I like slashdot and I don't like the thought of having to go elsewhere.

    Where has all the intelligent life gone?


    If you can't figure out how to mail me, don't.
  • with Inprise/Borland on its turf, Linux would be an ideal software development platform

    I will second that. Linux is already stiff competition, and in my opinion having Builder available for Linux would push a significant chunk of the sphere back into the Unix/Linux camp. I know at least three companies that will wipe Windows NT the day Borland ships its Linux IDE/RAD. One company I know is even developing in Builder and porting to Linux, their primary platform.

    Offtopic, but does anyone else think they 'dumbed down' Crystal Reports for Delphi??
  • Doesn't slashdot's code check the referring URL? It appears someone likes PERL's LWP and URI modules.
    --

    A mind is a terrible thing to taste.

  • Fortunes.. They're the output of /usr/games/fortune. Some 'innovative' troll seems to have written a shell script. Unfortunatly, not even a moderation-based ban can kill this sort of troll completly.

    C'mon 'President Clinton'! Both of us know there are three kinds of trolls: The funny, the repetitive, and the garbage. Knock it off before the good Commander posts your vital statistics to sid=killfile and some malicious hack (like me!) wipes you and your box off the face of the planet.
  • It looks like there was some sort of mass troll flood. All of the messages hit at 10:32 pm and it looks like they came from some sort of list of statements. I see over 900 listed as of 9:57 PST. This is bullshit. How are moderates supposed to find this message? I am going to start a message thread called "THIS IS NOT SPAM" someone mod it up so that there is a thread people can go to and discount the other stuff. hopefully the spammers are finished for the night.
  • Do everyone a favor. if you plan to spam, aim it at the main article and not at this post. If you actually have something to say, reply to this message and change the Subject to whatever you want.

    -- Life is like a line of waiting taxi cabs pulled up to the curb in front of a fancy hotel. You never know which raving lunatic is going to get you to your destination - or for that matter, whether you'll get your destination at all." (www.myboot.com)--
  • Well, that may be true but it seems a bit odd that
    Slashdot accepts login and passwd's from a GET vs. a POST.
    --

    A mind is a terrible thing to taste.

  • 1083 now :)
    This is insane. Well Trolls have finally got my attention. Now what do we all do about it?
    allow one IP to post only so many comments in a 2 minute period??????
  • MOST TROLLED STORY!

    Most spammed story. Don't glorify yourselves. These aren't trolls.

    Also, you aren't even the one who came up with the shell scripts. However, I suppose now that they're posted, you and all of your script kiddie friends will be using them.

    Read this [slashdot.org] if you still don't get it.

  • It's nice to have a survey which might be useful for someone every now and then. It's been a long time since the last one. Usually the questions / alternatives are at least nonsence, if not total garbage.
    This time all the questions were "answerable". There were only a small number of questions which didn't have enough choices (like the KDE / GNOME - hey, I don't use either one of them!). Anyway, the general feeling of this questionnaire was rather nice, and I'm glad if my answers can help Borland. Nice job, and it becomes nicer if they really can use the stats gathered.
    --
  • ...unless this hole is closed and closed quickly.

    For the past few days, the amount of moderation done has been practically non-existant. It's not just a case of moderation posts being wasted on trolls...I haven't seen very much positive moderation either.

    CmdrTaco, if you have any desire to save Slashdot, here is what you MUST do:

    1) People should get a rating based on the TIME they have been a Slashdot, not just this "karma". New members posts start at -1, no exceptions. After three months, they start at 0. After three more months, they start at 1. This means that if a troll wants to troll, he'll have to put in his dues for six months. If he then wants to blow it all on a single, grand, troll parade...fine. He can start all over.

    2) Karma needs to weigh much, much more. People with karma over 50 should start posting at 2. People with karma over 100 should start posting at 3. People with karma over 200 should start posting at 4 and people with karma over 500 (if they exist) must be worth reading.

    3) Each post takes exponentially longer to be posted to the system. First post takes one second to reach the forum. The next takes two seconds. The following takes four. Then eight, sixteen and so forth. In the end, if someone really wants to post more than 20 messages in a single day, they'll have to wait until tomorror for people to see them. That way these floods STOP.

    4) More moderation. I'd much rather see a war of moderation than a war of trolls. Give anyone with karma over 100 permanent moderation status. The only way it gets revoked is if them make a posting, and then it is revoked for twenty-four hours (thought on that article permanently).

    The fact is that there aren't enough moderators to keep the trolls in -1 land and put READABLE (I don't care if they suck at this point...so long as they aren't trolls) post at 3 or higher. 90% of the posts in the past few days have been 0 and maybe another 5% are the 1's and 2's that regular folks are awarded.

    It has to stop.

    - JoeShmoe

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  • Well, I saw it coming. I wrote an auto-first-posting script a while back, actually, but I never used it because of the extra load on Slashdot. (it's slow enough as it is, and the problem doesn't seem to be the bandwidth. I can ping it just fine, so...)
    ---
    pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate [152.7.41.11].
  • I hate to disagree, but I must disagree... :) I'm a "new user"... I've made a few of my first posts today, only because I finally had something substantial to say. The idea that I'd start out unreadable is... well, a real turnoff. Why would I bother to contribute if no one would see my post!? Starting at 0 is marginal. There are other solutions to this problem which don't involve major changes. Simple flood protection can be implemented. If the username (or IP address, which might be more accurate) has posted within the past, say, 30 seconds, force the user to wait before posting. And make no exceptions to that rule. I would like to see something else, though: The ability to block out ACs entirely via our profile, if the score for the post isn't 1 or higher. Doing so will block out 99% of the trolls... The only problem being that then the people using AC mode for legit reasons will become blocked... CmdrTaco, another dedicated story for this topic would be very nice. Thanks.
  • First off, you're taking it to an extreme more likely to promote trolls. Second, you're placing too much weight on karma and time. If you've been here longer than a few weeks, you know that most of what I say deserves neither mass attention nor reward. And yet your system would have me post at +4! Not even my inflated ego will accept that; it is unjustifiably ridiculous.

    So what if I've been reading for more than a year! So what if I've managed to get three-digit karma! They are as meaningless as indicators of my post and it's worth to the /. community as my IQ. And yes, I hold the somewhat unfortunate bastion to lump us in together as a community. These trolls have come together, as members of our community, to protest what they see as Slashdot's UCITA.

    I know through casual observance of the trolls that most of the notable ones are the very high-karma intellectuals you propose to promote. Most of the leaders of the world's revolutions have been members of the intellegencia and burgious. They are feeding the one before you! Will you see that they, the troll revolutionaries, stand for the side of good even though their means are less than honourable?

    Answer honestly this: Do you think that a police state will actually squash them? In the early phase of enforcement we are in they have won. They have won through sheer volume and obviousness, not through the system of +'s and -'s. I think they will win again, lest we calm whatever destructive urge they have through allowing their content.

    I have great empathy for the trolls. They as a whole are a truly worthwhile lot of folk. Don't marginalize them because the percieved extremity of the situation has fueled this. Instead, ask how we can maintain order and still give them space. Perhaps instead of your Gestapo tactics of supression and elimination we can concentrate on promoting the good. Allow only positive moderations, and set the ceiling higher so those that deserve the notice get it.

    Apologies to Mr. Katz for stealing his style; I tend to ramble meanderingly whilst drunk. Both of us should adopt concrete themes and ideas before writing. You, while sober, me, while inebriated.
  • If this prevents you from reading Slashdot, you probably have too much time on your hands anyway. The comments section has always been a waste of time. Being a blatant waste of time is not much worse. Furthermore, if you don't want to read the trolls, then you don't want to read a public forum, and you don't want to read Slashdot comments. All of your suggestions except the last are utterly ridiculous and elitist and would turn Slashdot into a bunch of pandering yes-men, much like it probably looks if you read at threshold of 1. So if that's the way you want it, just read at 1 and leave the public forum for the rest of us. Or stop reading Slashdot altogether, as you 'threaten.' I doubt you could come up with one person who'd miss you.

    --neil, posting non-anonymously because if a moderator can't find anything better to moderate down, then he couldn't be helped anyway

  • It is plain to see that you are not the run-of-the-mill troll. And not just because you know how to use sed correctly!

    What would you propose to eliminate the need for all the hateful waste of bandwidth trolling going on here? There has always been what I call 'enlightened trolling': The funny or inane comments that make my cup of coffee enjoyable in the morning, and the 'middle-finger in the face of convention' unpopular opinions with serious merit. Now there appear th be a second breed, the 'destructives'. How do we keep the former and kill the latter?
  • I said "I, for one will stop reading" because I mean exactly that. If I stop reading, VA Linux stock isn't going to plummet and I'm not going to be flooded with e-mails asking me to come back.

    If I leave, I doubt anyone would notice. That is beause I am one person.

    But my point in stating my feelings is that I, for one, am leaving and I welcome anyone else who feels the same way to leave as well (or at least stop posting). If it is two people, it is still nothing. Ten, still nothing...a hundred...maybe still nothing...but sooner or later the noise to signal ratio (regardless of being a shmuck, I have managed to contribute some signal to the mix) will be too great and then suddenly it will matter.

    Regarding time-based scoring...I still stick to it. It is a principle that has existed on Usenet and in many, many MUU/MUD games. The rule is that you watch and learn and then after seeing how the game is run, you are ready to contribute.

    And under a more highly-moderated system, that -1 post...if it is truly intellegent...will be quickly moderated up ONE WHOLE POINT to the default AC level. Thank god there are plenty of moderators who realize the importance of browsing at the -1 level.

    - JoeShmuck

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
  • First of all, if you are a new user, welcome. It sounds like you've been here longer than when you first started posting. So find...you lurked, now you are ready to post...that was my point.

    At some point, everyone is unreadable. Take a look at the horrible mess in this post. You'll see that there are over 100 posts with a rating of 1! And almost all of them are trolls. Thus, you would just as easily be drowned out because another registered user such as yourself abused the system. Just like trolls who abuse the system do for the 0 rating.

    ACs have always had to deal with no being heard, and that is the rule I suggest we extend to everyone based on time.

    IP and username regulation does no good because both can be faked and spoofed and manipulated. Time can't be faked. You prove you have been around for three/six months by logging in (you can still post anonymously). Everyone else goes to the bottom of the stack.

    And as I said in the reply above this one, if there was more moderation, you have nothing to fear about not being heard. And if you aren't...well, I and a lot of other people browse at -1 so you are being heard by someone. If that isn't enough, check your ego at the door please and try again next time.

    - JoeShmoe

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
  • I have great empathy for the trolls. They as a whole are a truly worthwhile lot of folk. Don't marginalize them because the percieved extremity of the situation has fueled this. Instead, ask how we can maintain order and still give them space.

    I agree. I honestly don't care if trolls post here, as long as they don't soak up so much bandwidth that legitimate users can't access the site. Some trolls crack me up uncontrollably. I think the issue here is that it needs to be much easier to avoid them, especially for newcomers.

    We need favorable first impressions, and the trolls are presently robbing us of this. I don't feel like I can encourage non-geeks to read comments on Slashdot to try and understand our community, because I know they'll be confronted by pages of trolls and first posters. Default is Threshold=0 or -1, depending on which link you click, but worse still, it defaults to "Oldest First," which just encourages the first posters.

    I would never advocate censorship, I still want the ability to read trolls if I want to. But we need to make it easier to avoid them.
  • At this point breating promotes trolls. SAying ignore the trolls promotes trolls. Not posting anything promotes trolls. Posting as a troll promotes trolls. Trolls are a problem that will only get bigger. You think today was bad...well, amplify it by a hundred and most readers, I think, will just throw up there hands and stop reading.

    Regarding high karma...hey, if you've been here longer than a few weeks, you must have seen the "No Score +1 bonus" option. It's not a whole lot more work to add a drop down list so that you and the other karma gods can rate your own posts. God knows if you have a three digit karma, you should be trusted with at least that much (you do it all the time as moderators).

    If you spew crap and give it a 4 rating, guess what...it will get marked down. Even though we NEVER seem to see the, there are a bunch of other negative ratins besides flamebait and troll. It all evens out. I suspect that most high-karma posters will (out of modesty) give themselves 1 scores. This thread of postings is pretty much the first time I have chosen not to use the "No +1" option...because I believe so strongly in what I have to say.

    I post anonymously and I have even trolled when I thought the trolls themselves needed to feel the heat. This is not what I'm worried about. There are funny trolls and in a system where there are oodles of moderation points, they will rise above the noise. My basic point is that Slashdot wants to cluster everyone in the middle and make bad go down and good go up. I say that is the wrong approach. Everyone starts low and only time, effort, and intellegence will raise you up. Some will raise a little and others will be big movers. But everyone will be moving.

    And, as you did not refute my moderation point, I will repeat it. Imagine if every post made HAD to get assigned a point. We would see a clear separation of signal and noise and not this murky-water bell-curve we have now.

    - JoeShmoe

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
  • 1 troll post? no.

    100 troll posts? no.

    1000 troll posts? HELL yes.

    I am sometimes called to moderate. When that happens, I browse at -1. How in gods name can I be expected to moderating if less than 10% of the posts are even readable?

    The result is that moderation doesn't happen. If I didn't already have a karma high enough to start me at rating of 2...no one would have even SEEN my post. I know this because for the past couple weeks I have been making regular posts and always choosing the "No +1" option. It wasn't until today that I got fed up and started myself at +2 and now FINALLY some real, intellegent, debate is occuring. To me, that only proves my point.

    We can't censor and we can't delete. So that means there needs to be more ways to move posts up. There are a lot of posts that NEVER make a well-deserved +5 because moderators took one look at the trolls and moved onto a newer posting. I know it happens because I'm guilty of that myself.

    And if no one misses me then...okay. But I consider myself a pretty tolerant person...so if it has reached my threshold, then there are probably already hundreds who have quit. Eventually...it will be a problem.

    - JoeShmoe

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
  • Thanks for the welcome. I have always made it a practice to lurk for weeks before even considering a post. In this case, I've been lurking for months.

    *insert some unknown time during which TOCie labors on a post...*

    Oh screw it... I've written and rewritten the rest of my reply four times now and I still ain't comin' out with a coherent argument. Heh. Ok, one last time.

    Not much can be done. More moderation might work in the short run, but it isn't a viable long term solution. Something must be done to stop the abuse of the AC.

    I'd like to see another step of moderation: the ability to block out posts which have not been 'approved' by a moderator. 'Approval' doesn't necessitate a change in the score, just that a moderator has seen the post and marked it as not being a troll. Viewing this way would be optional... No more trolls, even if you browse at 0...

    Just an idea. Someone probably thought of it before me. Oh well. :)
  • One of the reason moderation has failed, in my view, is that too many moderation posts get spent on too few posts.

    You are assuming that once you get above +3 (or some other magic number), the cream has truely risen to the top. To the contrary, if you go back and read most complete articles, the posts that have moderated up to +4 or +5 are usually just long posts that were posted early, or dull party line statements, and there's plenty of good, well thought out posts amidst the noise down at +1 or +2, including some very informative or insightful stuff that just got posted late.

    If anything, what's needed is *less* moderation categories, not more -- Instead of -1 through 5, it should be -1 through +1 (or at most +2). It's not like there's any objective quality difference between the average +3 and the average +5 post. Removing the incentive to push an agreeable or early statement up to +5 will spread things out and give you more of the 'moderated' discussion you are looking for.
    --
  • Point-by point analysis of your original argument:

    1) post_default == (months/x)
    There are a lot of old posters. I have a friend who still retains an account from the pre-1000 days. He hasn't posted anything but pointless anonymous trolls, and I don't think he is capable of anything better. (He is a MCSE, after all!) Just because you got in on the ground floor doesn't make you smarter than 90% of today's new users.

    2) karma_weight^2
    Poppycock. Under the current moderation system, I can fluctuate as much as 10 points daily. Some of us intentionally abused the moderation system in order to 'whore ourselves for karma'. The process is too easily abused to carry merit as anything else than a BS compass.

    3)post_time^post_number
    Besides beginning to smell like technologicaly enforced 'Thou shalt not post' for trolls, it stinks for regular users as well. I have posted twenty times in a single day, and I'm sure Signal 11 has me toasted in daily # of posts! So you're saying that my insightful, meaningful post to the 11:57 pm story shouldn't be seen until after the light of day Thursday? Bah! Give me a locked 60 second delay anytime. I'll wait, or load a new browser window, but I won't be able to spam the forums

    4)More moderation
    Perhaps. Instituting a /. elite with a "+100 permamod" system is extreme. Granted, it would assure you a steady 70-100 committed individuals, but over time would become a burden as more people accululate karma. Additionally, most of the recent moderation has been wasted sending trolls to -1 Never-never land when it should have concentrated on the insightful questions in today's interview. Increase the number of moderators 10-15%, and give them 6 points, which can be spent promoting six good posts or punishing 3 bad ones. Moderators are not here to open a can of whoop-ass on every troll that comes along. They're here to make sure notable ideas get seen. We reduce the damage the trolls inflict on the S/N by not giving them the old 'Moderation screwed me down to -1. I'm gonna get that fucker' excuse.

    Murky bell-curve? Real life is a murky bell curve. What makes you think /. should aspire to more?
  • While I have been advocating more moderation over a wide range, perhaps the status quo over a shorter range would be preferable. Say -1 through +3. Moderators couldn't overrate comments by an order of magnitude. They could also give 'mad props' to some of the equally valuable gems down at +1, having spent fewer points on those three +5. Coupled with a +1 bonus for 'high-karma' individuals, it might serve to keep the upper limit for karma low enough we can all use it as a BS detector again. If you give yourself a +1 when you don't deserve it, someone will kneecap you down one. You could lose significantly more (-3) from misuse, and with the limit being +2 karma per post, the 'whores' would melt away because it is simply no longer productive.

    As is, I have to leave my +1 bonux on to stay above the chaff.
  • A very good word processing program (I maintain anything with "reveal codes" has to be superior to Word).

    Actually, despite sucking for many, many years, Microsoft seems to have got their act together, and the latest version of Word is actually pretty good. That's not to say it's perfect, but overall I prefer it to WordPerfect. Much of that, though, is simply due to the interface. Easy access to styles makes for a less stressful word processing experience.

    Where WordPerfect really comes into its own (apart from the fact that I can run it under Linux :-) is foreign language support. I *can't* do my family tree in Word because it won't let me insert Polish accented characters. WordPerfect under Linux does let me do so. Whether that's an issue with Windows or Word, I don't know, but to a certain extent I don't care. WP lets me do it, so that's what I use.

  • It will probably ship in the third quarter of this year - or maybe the fourth (that's from the newsgroups)

    The command line C++/Object Pascal compiler is working now.

    It will use Qt as a toolkit (not my choice, but at least it's not Motif!) (That's from an interview at www.linuxjournal.com here [linuxjournal.com] with Dale Fuller - Borland CEO - done just after the merger)

    It seems likely that the compilers will be a free download (and maybe even open source) - and perhaps even a free "Entry Level" version of Kylix will be available.

    They aren't sure about the licencing for the VCL yet.

    Btw, the Interbase open source project is still going along nicely. A new company has been set up to run it. See here [interbase2000.org] for more news.

  • 2) Karma needs to weigh much, much more. People with karma over 50 should start posting at 2. People with karma over 100 should start posting at 3. People with karma over 200 should start posting at 4 and people with karma over 500 (if they exist) must be worth reading.

    I think people with a karma larger than 25 start posting at 2. Anything above IMHO is exagerated because those people might write something insightful in a direct reply to an article, but in the following discussion, they are not likely to repeat that 'performance' again and again. But they would appear all the time in threaded discussions (if they have a score of 3 or higher). So I'd say 2 is enough.

    3) Each post takes exponentially longer to be posted to the system. First post takes one second to reach the forum. The next takes two seconds. The following takes four. Then eight, sixteen and so forth. In the end, if someone really wants to post more than 20 messages in a single day, they'll have to wait until tomorror for people to see them. That way these floods STOP.

    But this won't stop anonymous cowards with a dynamic IP...

    4) More moderation. I'd much rather see a war of moderation than a war of trolls. Give anyone with karma over 100 permanent moderation status. The only way it gets revoked is if them make a posting, and then it is revoked for twenty-four hours (thought on that article permanently).

    I don't think this is a good idea. Such moderators can too easily abuse it. I think the FAQ has more on that topic... With an infinite number of mod. points you could also easily bring other persons to karma 100 by moderating up everything they say. I think the restriction to 5 points (or make it 10 for people with high karma) once in a while is important.
  • I concur. (I know, it's troll and you don't need to read this, but this is like my vote ... heh heh) I've also noticed this of late. Not too long ago, stories with 100 messages had a couple of +5 ratings. Now, it takes a story of 300+ messages to get +5 ratings. This is odd.
  • If the message contains hundreds of trolls, then I'd guess the moderators are busy using up their points to get rid of the garbage, rather than to promote the good articles.
  • I started reading Slashdot because of the trolls. The very first comment I saw here was a troll, and it was so funny, I decided to stay.

    I agree that most of the spam is a nuisance, but even spam can be fun and original. Look at this "President Clinton", for instance. He published his scripts, so he is now an "Open Source" spammer :)

    Anyway, the fact that I'm reading and commentig this story is a tribute to the "President Clinton" spammer and the AC with the staircase subject comments. I would never read another story about a so-called "survey", I have seen so many "surveys" done without the necessary statistical rigor, I don't care for another. But look at the comments! 1100+, oh, this must be Troll Day! I can't miss this! So here I am. I might even click an ad banner or two, who knows? I'm a potential customer.

    On the other hand, what turns me off are some of the "insightful" and "interesting" comments. I absolutely hate that politically correct bullshit! Those trite long winded sentences are totally void of semantic content if you filter out the PCBS. My sugestion to improve /. is to suppress the "insightful" and "interesting" labels, and add an "original" label instead. If you want a deep discussion on a subject, find the appropriate usenet group and stay there for a few weeks on each thread, carefully dissecting the implications.

    The Slashdot owners must decide who they want as readers. If it's the PCBS bunch, too bad, there are so many places that cater to those that /. will be just one more in the crowd. Now, if it's a stand-alone, unique "News for Nerds, Stuff that matters", please keep this place geeky. Geeks *HATE* trite politically correct bullshit. Geeks like original humor, even if it's a bit scatological and absolutely irreverent. And, most important, geeks buy many, many more computer parts than the PCBS lovers do! Remember this, Andover/VALinux

    From the /. moderator guidelines: If you can't be deep, be funny

  • Post the IP's the messages came from in a separate story for everyone to know.
  • a remark from my time meta-moderating: that's true that 6 out of 10 posts were trolls. that's a sorry loss of moderation points (for moderators, not meta moderators..). seems like slashdot is going through same period as internet did in 1993 - from a subculture it went mainstream, inviting not-so-responsible folk. quality of posts has decreased, yes. pity i can't contribute to it, quality. i like to browse at 4, but my comments rarely reach 2. but that makes sense, however.
  • "And under a more highly-moderated system, that -1 post...if it is truly intellegent...will be quickly moderated up ONE WHOLE POINT to the default AC level. Thank god there are plenty of moderators who realize the importance of browsing at the -1 level"

    This is complete crap. Under a more highly moderated system there will just be a lot more abuse of power. The only posts that ever get posted up are posts that state what the group mentality assumed to think. Sig11 (Karma Whore (tm)) has said many times that the only reason he has the highest karma rating, is because he posts what people want to hear, which means karma++. If anyone posts something that might be "slightly" out of line with the thinking of the group, karma--.

    Another example of why moderation doesn't work is the story of the AC who posted a story that was completely made up, yet was moderated up to +5 within an hour or thereabouts. Moderation only works when the people who moderate have a clue about the subject they are moderating over. Posts that seem truely intelligent to someone with no clue about the subject, may not be to someone who actually understands the subject. But there is nothing to stop the first moderator moderating on it.
  • See above.
  • You, my friend, are a member of the "politically correct" Gestapo. While you may not hold all PC views, in this case, you certainly are all too ready to pounce on anything that might discriminate against anything or anyone. Though I disagree with much of JoeSchmoe's proposals, I respect his right to say it. I'll not try to scare any meaningfull discussion away by tossing out words such as "gestapo".

    Is the New York Times or the Economist fascist because they don't allow any schmoe write for them? No. Am I fascist because I wish to read something dynamic, more current, and interactice than the Economist (et. al), yet don't have the time to read every flame, troll, and dogmatic post on Slashdot? Because not everyone in this world has anything worthwhile to contribute, moderation and editorial control are necessary.

    Trolls are Trolls. When I read a comment,I demand a certain level of effort, coherance, intelligence, and fairness. I don't have to listen to these trolls if I don't want to. Nor should I have to SEE these comments, if it is avoidable.

    My problem with JoeSchmoe is that his solutions likely wouldn't be very effective, and might even have the oppositive effect.

    I believe the degree of correlation between seniority and quality of posts is nominal. In other words, an individual who posts semi-regularly for a couple months likely isn't a one-time flamer. I would not, however, go beyond that. In my experience the differences between someone with a #xxxx and a #xxxxx ID are barely noticable.

    ....anyhow, I've got other ideas for moderation, but I don't have time to get into it now...hasta =)
  • Has anyone else noticed that the people who did this survey do not consider the UK to be in western Europe? They don't consider IRIX to be a server OS either.

  • That would be the "Yale wall" idea (read about it a little more here [code-is-law.org] (thanks KMSelf)), and yeah, people have thought about it before, but that doesn't make it a bad thing :> I've also lurked around here for a year or so now, without posting too much, but it seems to me that this idea is a very good one. Of course, moderators would still have to go through all the posts, in order to "approve" AC posts, but, technically, moderators should be browsing at -1 anyway, so that's not really relevant.
  • I think the whole karma thing is taken as far as it's going to go. You now have the choice to filter out these trolls and flamebait entries but you still choose to complain.

    While I agree the whole delay between multiple posts thing has potential, where are these temporary posts going to be kept? In a temp database? Should there be a daemon running that is constantly sorting the database by timestamps and the total number of posts for the day and popping the one of the top into the normal database... I think Slashdot is already slow enough.....

    A better answer would be to make a few code improvements that would stop most low level cracks and slow down the more advanced ones. It's obvious that these can still be by-passed but it would take considerable more work.

    1) Check to see if the method is a GET or POST. It's much easier to whip up a quick script for a GET since it reads the variables from the URL string.

    2) Check the referring URL. Yes, this can be spoofed and you can turn it off in some clients but it's yet another speed bump.

    3) Add the users IP into the database for each post (They may already do this..) so it can be used later. If the user is a constant problem, ipchains -J DENY them or their subnet for a while.

    Any other suggestions?


    --

    A mind is a terrible thing to taste.

  • ...according to Linuxplanet [linuxplanet.com] its available now, here [borland.com].

    This is the 'foundation' level package, and is a free download. Also available for Windows and Solaris.

  • Could someone explain to me how the extra THOUSAND or so posts in this thread is "Offtopic"? I think it's kinda relevant.

    It's nice to see people moderating posts again, but they still aren't doing it right. (hint: good posts... moderate up...)
    ---
    pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate [152.7.41.11].
  • For the past few days, the amount of moderation done has been practically non-existant. It's not just a case of moderation posts being wasted on trolls...I haven't seen very much positive moderation either.

    I've been wondering about this myself. I know that there has been moderation going one because I got moderator points yesterday (all used positively since I just ignore the trolls). But I've noticed that it has been quite some time since anything I have written has been moderated either way. I had just suspected that I was being overly fond of my own writing, but hearing this from someone else makes me wonder.

    1) People should get a rating based on the TIME they have been a Slashdot, not just this "karma". New members posts start at -1, no exceptions. After three months, they start at 0. After three more months, they start at 1. This means that if a troll wants to troll, he'll have to put in his dues for six months. If he then wants to blow it all on a single, grand, troll parade...fine. He can start all over.

    It doesn't matter whether you start new users at -1, 0 or 1 when we can set our moderation thresholds. I think starting people at -1 is going to discourage worthwhile new posters. Instead, keep the Anonymous Cowards at 0, new users at 1, and try some version of the next suggestion:

    2) Karma needs to weigh much, much more. People with karma over 50 should start posting at 2. People with karma over 100 should start posting at 3. People with karma over 200 should start posting at 4 and people with karma over 500 (if they exist) must be worth reading.

    I think this would serve nicely as a self-regulating mechanism. If you like having a strong positive Karma, and the benefits that go with it, you continue to post useful comments.

    3) Each post takes exponentially longer to be posted to the system. First post takes one second to reach the forum. The next takes two seconds. The following takes four. Then eight, sixteen and so forth. In the end, if someone really wants to post more than 20 messages in a single day, they'll have to wait until tomorror for people to see them. That way these floods STOP.

    I think you mean each post from the same user on a given day. Is there an easy way to enforce this on a single Anonymous Coward?

    4) More moderation. I'd much rather see a war of moderation than a war of trolls. Give anyone with karma over 100 permanent moderation status. The only way it gets revoked is if them make a posting, and then it is revoked for twenty-four hours (thought on that article permanently).

    I wonder how well that would work. I tend to post regularly, with a comment or two on at least one or two articles a day. I'd rarely be allowed to moderate except when I've been out of touch for a day. However, a few people with permanent moderator status who are willing to take on the burden of moderating trolls down might not hurt.

    I suspect there will be disagreements about moderation regardless of the policy. I know that I have moderated up at least one article that had been moderated down, and I find myself disagreeing with maybe 5% of the moderation when I meta-moderate. There's no way to please everyone.

  • I'm glad to see Borland reiterating their commitment to Linux. I have used Delphi since it came out, and Turbo Pascal before that. I have no problem with C (though C++ makes my skin crawl), but Delphi makes the construction of a UI a minor event, not the majority of the app. That's as it should be.

    I wonder whether many of the most negative comments on /. stem from fears on the part of the current community of Linux developers that they will soon be drowned in a sea of Windows emigres. It is a well-founded concern. Many of us developing for Windows would like to be developing for Linux, but as commercial developers, cannot simply drop everything to adopt a new OS, new GUI interface, new compiler, and to build a new tool set.

    Contrary to the ravings of RMS, I don't find anything wrong with being paid for my work. The single most offensive aspect of the Open Source movement is the tendency of its adherents to froth at the mouth over the notion of any software which is not free. I pay for a distribution, because I prefer to do that, rather than to download for the many hours it takes to obtain one for "free".

    As a resident of North America, I am steeped in the principles of a reasonably free market, and in the notion that profit for labor and risk is an honorable thing. OSS folk take note: the market will determine whether or not Borland's commercially offered Linux-based tools survive. I believe that once Kylix hits the streets, we will see a tremendous upswing in the use of Linux, and in the availability of applications for the desktop.

    Linux socialists: brace yourselves, the deluge is near.

    With the success of commercial tools, as well as free ones, we will see the maturity of Linux in the market, and then MS will truly have something to fear.
  • I'd like to take a minute to break down michael's addendum:

    > "Readers will notice that one of your fellow readers is abusing the system."

    Right away, the tone is "us vs. them". "One of your fellow readers?" Remember when the Slashdot editors were part of the community that read their site? Now, we're "readers". They're "editors".

    I don't care for this tone at all. It sounds too much like an elementary-school teacher -- "One of you students has decided to spoil it for the rest...."

    > "Take my word for it that CmdrTaco is well aware of the situation and is preparing to Take Steps."

    "Take Steps" with capitalization -- are the editors about to send someone to the principal's office? Is someone going to have to grab ankles while CmdrTaco administers a spanking?

    > "It is frankly a shame that Slashdot's loose authentication system which is designed to allow people to participate without providing your name, SSN and mother's maiden name like so many other forums is also subject to abuse."

    Translation: "We've built a popular interactive site by not forcing participants to answer intrusive questions. We may have to change this policy now that we're big-time." This sentence is just dripping with anticipation of Bad Things.

    Face it, folks. Slashdot is a big-money "portal" site now. The fact that the spambot is being treated as such a crisis is evidence. Slashdot is just like ZDNet or MSNBC with a pronounced pro-Linux bias. The ".org" extension is deceptive and should be dropped.

    The spambot is just a simple shell script. It could have been written at any point in Slashdot's life. I'm sure many people who visit this site have had the idea of auto-posting at one point. So why did it happen now?

    Slashdot has gone the way of much of the "alternative" media of the 80's/90's generation. It's alternative until it makes money. Then, it becomes mainstream. People didn't care about taking risks before because there was nothing to lose. Now, stockholders and managers depend on "alternative" and they learn to stick with what works.

    There's very little that's alternative about Slashdot now.

    "News for Nerds?" -- Only if you define "nerd" as a Linux zealot prone to knee-jerk outrage against corporations and government.

    "Stuff that matters" -- If your entire life revolves around computers and the internet.

    Welcome to the mainstream, Slashdot. It was fun but now it's time to grow up.
  • I'm concerned about this influx of commercial software on Linux. If I wanted to use that kind of software, why would I be using Linux?

    I think the Gimp is actually a better, if less mature, program than Corel PhotoPaint. Likewise, I think Emacs is a better IDE than what Inprise/Borland have to offer.

    Those commercial Windows-based tools have been designed to appear simple to learn and use. But they reach their limits quickly when it comes to customizability and scripting. The risk is that more and more Linux users will go the "easy" route, get the "free entry level" commercial tools and never learn what Linux and UNIX are all about.

    I suppose that a Windows-like environment with a working POSIX-compliant kernel and modular GUI toolkit is still better than a Windows-like environment with a Win32 API, but I think there is a lot more to Linux/UNIX than just that, and this influx of commercial tools threatens it.

  • Open letter to Borland/Inprise (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I'm sorry I have to post this anonymously, but there are some things I have to say that I can't attach my name to.

    My management has been making noises for a number of years about porting from AIX to Win NT to enjoy a cost savings. Three points seem to be escaping their attention:

    1. An internal study was done which determined that for our applications, an NT server with all of the necessary hardware and software was comparable in cost to as much RS/6000 horsepower running AIX.
    2. Several of our applications have been ported to Linux by developers working in their spare time.
    3. The estimates for the time to port to NT have been rather large. And we expect that for at least a year afterward, the support costs would be much higher as well because of undiscovered porting bugs.


    Capturing some portion of the market porting from high-end Unix systems to less expensive hardware running Linux or FreeBSD could be a big win. Oracle already has a head start in this because in many cases the applications are already using Oracle, and they have ported their software to Linux.

    I realize this instead Borland/Inprise's native market, but if they can ease this transition, there may be potential sales for them.

    Also, the survey mentioned localization into a variety of languages. These days, there are a lot of market niches that require support for the local language. And supporting a few of the big ones may not be enough. I'd rather see a mechanism that allows developers or end users to drop in translations to accomplish their own localization. Using gettext would be an excellent idea. But if there is a licensing issue with that, at least use a mechanism that will support .po files for the localizations and supply the base .pot files to be translated. You might find that the open source community will do a number of translations for you.
  • Huh, if you don't like it, why don't you set your threshold higher? With the threshold set at 1, there are only ~45 comments for this post, and all of them are on topic. You suggest shifting the scale so that you won't see these bogus posts... well why don't you shift the scale yourself? That's the beauty of the system... it already does what you want it to do!
  • I have to agree with points 1, 2 and 4. The trolling is getting tiring. Karma and devotion to this site ought to count for something.

    Issue 3, exponential delays for posting, might
    be a bit tough to implement. Perhaps not nearly as important as newbies starting at -1.

    Anyway, looks like Slashdot is in for a little DDoS of its own. :-)

  • Disclaimer: I am a fool. IANALBTANSTAAFL

    It seems bizarre to use a system where everyone and anyone is considered irrelevant until proven meaningful.

    Instead, it should be that you are <B>meaningful until proven irrelevant</B>.

    How about changing the point range to -5 and +3.

    Everyone's posts start at +1 max, decreasing over time as they are moderated down. Persistently Irrelevant Posters (PIPs) would soon end up posting at -5.

    Another idea: anonymous posters must enter a name and email address <B>at the time of posting</B> if they do not log in. If you want to constantly post garbage, you'll have to spend time rotating your name spoof over and over.

    To share the moderation load, you should be able to view only unmoderated comments, i.e. ones that need your touch.

    I do not believe anyone should get any automatic bonuses. But it should be very common for people to get automatic penalties.

    Disclaimer: I am a fool. IANALATANSTAAFL
  • WP 5.1 for DOS could handle the crossed-L character. I looked up how to do this to impress a Polish woman I was sweet on at the time.

    So it is not an issue with the platform, but rather a design decision WP made vs Word. On the other hand, I hated the printer driver situation in WP 5.1 for windows. If there is a driver in the (so-called?) operating system, then why do I want to install one for the application?
    • 2) Karma needs to weigh much, much more. People with karma over 50 should start posting at 2. People with karma over 100 should start posting at 3. People with karma over 200 should start posting at 4 and people with karma over 500 (if they exist) must be worth reading.

      I think this would serve nicely as a self-regulating mechanism. If you like having a strong positive Karma, and the benefits that go with it, you continue to post useful comments.

    Unfortuantely, from what I've seen, it's exactly this which is the problem - karma whores who post quasi-"insightful" stuff as early as they can to an article just for the sake of ego inflation. If you'd actually read any of the trolls who are asking for the abolishment of moderation, you'd notice that they generally have a disdain for the whole karma system. And personally, I agree with them.

    As an example, a few days ago, on the "life on other planets" article, I decided to do a little experiment. I had an opportunity to get a first post, so I made a long-winded seemingly-insightful comment which had absolutely nothing to do with the article, but seemed like it since it was related to the idea of life on other worlds being improbable but not impossible. Trite, banal, and completely pointless - but yet it got moderated up to +5.

    This is the kind of thing which the trolls apparently have an issue with.
    ---
    "'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine [nmsu.edu].

    • 1) Check to see if the method is a GET or POST. It's much easier to whip up a quick script for a GET since it reads the variables from the URL string.
    Unfortunately, this won't work anymore. Part of what the spam-troll released in his source apparently converts plaintext into URL-encoded HTML (judging by the fact one of the scripts is called 'url-encode'), and then as seen in post-stuff.sh, it reformats it into a POST request, rather than a GET. So, in effect, this troll has made your suggestion moot before it was even made. :/
    ---
    "'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine [nmsu.edu].
    • Another idea: anonymous posters must enter a name and email address
    • at the time of posting if they do not log in. If you want to constantly post garbage, you'll have to spend time rotating your name spoof over and over.
    And then Slashdot would have to verify this email address, I take it? More wasted bandwidth and CPU.

    • To share the moderation load, you should be able to view only unmoderated comments, i.e. ones that need your touch.
    So basically, it gets moderated once, and then never again - so if someone unfairly moderates a 1 down to -1, and that moderation doesn't get M2ed, that post is screwed without admin intervention.

    • I do not believe anyone should get any automatic bonuses. But it should be very common for people to get automatic penalties.
    This I agree with.
    ---
    "'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine [nmsu.edu].
    • > "Readers will notice that one of your fellow readers is abusing the system."

    • Right away, the tone is "us vs. them". "One of your fellow readers?" Remember when the Slashdot editors were part of the community that read their site? Now, we're "readers". They're "editors".

    To me, that sounded more like some sort of "There's a traitor among us," and gearing up to a McCarthy-esque finger-pointing reputation-ruining person-destroying witch hunt.

    • Face it, folks. Slashdot is a big-money "portal" site now. The fact that the spambot is being treated as such a crisis is evidence. Slashdot is just like ZDNet or MSNBC with a pronounced pro-Linux bias. The ".org" extension is deceptive and should be dropped.
    To their credit, they did manage to recover slashdot.com from the squatter, but it's just a redirect to slashdot.org.

    • The spambot is just a simple shell script. It could have been written at any point in Slashdot's life. I'm sure many people who visit this site have had the idea of auto-posting at one point. So why did it happen now?
    Well, someone claiming to be the author posted a sort of "manifesto" [slashdot.org] under the DDoS article where he tries to justify why he did it. I have mixed feelings, though I do feel that the points he raises have been mentioned in comments many times (by both trolls and non-trolls alike) and yet there hasn't been any implementation of the suggestions, and so something more extreme seemed justified, to him at least.

    I don't condone activism of that sort, but I read his diatribe as meaning that he wanted to vent some frustration and make a point while doing it. I dunno.
    ---
    "'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine [nmsu.edu].

  • Actually, despite sucking for many, many years, Microsoft seems to have got their act together, and the latest version of Word is actually pretty good.

    Does it still have a flight simulator in it? That was one if the few things I liked about it besides that paper clip dude ;)
  • yea, I think you are right in a way. I have only been able to read about 30 replies about each article and a browse at +2. Right now, I have 987 replies under my current threshold and that is sort of crazy. _but_ I don't really feel like reading more that 20 articles/posts about anything. I don't see any fives so far and if there are this many posts, and no fives, then there are a lack of moderators.
  • Well, you can tell. You'll notice that most of my posts which are at +2 are just (Score: 2), rather than, for example, (Score: 2, Informative). Similarly, that's how you can tell the difference between someone whose default posting level is -1 and someone who just got moderated down.
    ---
    "'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine [nmsu.edu].
  • I would suggest both more moderation and a shorter range.

    Also, get rid of any karma bonus -- karma stars like Bruce Perens or Effugus or Signal11 have no problem get moderated up when they have something to say. And misuse of karma bonus almost never gets 'kneecapped'.

    Also, don't allow over moderation -- once a post hits maximum or minimum, extra moderation doesn't cost the moderator. This limits the simultaneous moderation points black hole.

    Also, limit early positive moderation -- this will allow more conversations to start before everyone starts replying to the top scored posts.

    Also, VA should just pay someone to be a permanent moderator. This person whould have the job of knocking down First Posts, outright rascist stuff, spam, and so on, so the community doesn't have to. (This person would not moderate down Petrified Hot Grits or other humor value trolls -- let the real moderators do that if the joke is getting old.)
    --
  • As an example, a few days ago, on the "life on other planets" article, I decided to do a little experiment. I had an opportunity to get a first post, so I made a long-winded seemingly-insightful comment which had absolutely nothing to do with the article, but seemed like it since it was related to the idea of life on other worlds being improbable but not impossible. Trite, banal, and completely pointless - but yet it got moderated up to +5.

    This is the kind of thing which the trolls apparently have an issue with.


    That sounds like some pretty awful moderation. I wasn't aware of that. I've certainly posted for Karma myself often enough, but I'm not in it just for the damn Karma, so when I do it I post something useful. In fact, I had been writing some notes on how to improve your Karma with the intention of posting them. I think I'll wait.

    Do we need some dedicated moderators looking for specific things? I don't think cosmetic patches to the current system can stop bad moderation.
  • >You think emacs is better than the Borland IDEs?

    He says better than EMACs, that damm piece of shit
    stayed less than half an hour on my PC. Unless
    you got a book next to you to know what to do
    you're locked into some useless junk with the
    only way to get out is a kill.

    >Clearly, you've not used them. Borland's
    >IDEs blow anything on linux out of the water. The
    >only thing that's close is KDevelop, but
    >that has a long way to go before it's as good as
    >C++ Builder or Delphi.

    KDevelop looks ok but the debugger sucks and
    there are no debugger that matches the quality of
    the Borland or IBM debuggers on Linux.
  • >And then Slashdot would have to verify this email address, I take it? More wasted bandwidth and CPU

    Actually, why verify it? I was merely thinking it would be used as an identifing tag on anonymous users, allowing non anonymous non logined
  • Then you can just forge lots of email addresses real easy:

    echo `pwgen 8`@`pwgen 8`.net

    or whatever.
    ---
    "'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine [nmsu.edu].

  • I suspect the problem has to do with the number of posts increasing but the number of moderation points remaining fixed.

    I suggest that the number of available moderation points should not be absolute but relative to the number of posts -- either globally or per story.

    - Adi Stav

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